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My wall of hax is bigger than yours ~ UKG vs. Lavos
- Thread starter The_Wright_Way
- Start date
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UKG never used its Law powers to erase someone.
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When has...anyone in PMMM done that?
Time Devourer has a massive AP, hax, intellect, and versatility advantage.
Minus the conceptual erasure, but that doesn't even matter, given that regen, even if it was High Godly, wouldn't save her.
Time Devourer has a massive AP, hax, intellect, and versatility advantage.
Minus the conceptual erasure, but that doesn't even matter, given that regen, even if it was High Godly, wouldn't save her.
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>Kal's Annoyance vs Cal's Annoyance?
I ain't missing this.
I ain't missing this.
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I think we assume Regen doesn't save one from Absorption as technically you aren't being destroyed and are becoming part of said being.
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Yep. And that's extra the case for Lavos's absorption.
UKG shouldn't be anywhere close to omniscient.
UKG shouldn't be anywhere close to omniscient.
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You'll have to make a thread regarding absorption.
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Has Lavos ever absorbed something at minimum the size of a galaxy?
And tell me how Lavos bypasses all the passives to do so.
How does the "remove the influence" works?
Intellect advantage, I highly doubt so.
And UKG has like, at least 3 different types of power mimicry, so Lavos doesn't have this advantage either.
Since it was asked before, passive absorption comes from this: "The Doppel of mercy. Its form is salvation. The master of this emotion attempts to save all things in creation. This Doppel resembles a giant, floating Soul Gem. When it appears, everything around it is pulled into the interior of the substance it produces, and is thereby rendered helpless. [...]"
Btw remember that due to UKG's precog it's more than likely that she will know what she needs to do to get rid of Lavos, and since it doesn't resist law manip, a law that encompasses two multiverses (existence and nonexistence) saying "no more Lavos" should be enough. And this takes a tought iirc.
And tell me how Lavos bypasses all the passives to do so.
How does the "remove the influence" works?
Intellect advantage, I highly doubt so.
And UKG has like, at least 3 different types of power mimicry, so Lavos doesn't have this advantage either.
Since it was asked before, passive absorption comes from this: "The Doppel of mercy. Its form is salvation. The master of this emotion attempts to save all things in creation. This Doppel resembles a giant, floating Soul Gem. When it appears, everything around it is pulled into the interior of the substance it produces, and is thereby rendered helpless. [...]"
Btw remember that due to UKG's precog it's more than likely that she will know what she needs to do to get rid of Lavos, and since it doesn't resist law manip, a law that encompasses two multiverses (existence and nonexistence) saying "no more Lavos" should be enough. And this takes a tought iirc.
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UKG actually has absorption scaling from Madoka, KG and regular witches as well.
Btw Lavos has the AP advantage yes, but it's really not that huge.
DD!Lavos (baseline 2-A) < Harle < Kid < Linx =< Fate with Frozen Flame <<< Dragon God controlled by TD at endgame <<< TD!Lavos.
Madoka (twice above baseline) <<< Supposed peak of UKG <<< Current UKG. The gap is like smaller than the one between DD and Fate.
I'm also pretty sure that Lavos can't look into the past of something that has no past, which is how he mimics powers.
As for intelligence by all means, make a CRT if you think that it's wrong.
"Massive hax advantage"? Explain it. Especially because most of what Lavos does can be done by Madoka as well.
Btw Lavos has the AP advantage yes, but it's really not that huge.
DD!Lavos (baseline 2-A) < Harle < Kid < Linx =< Fate with Frozen Flame <<< Dragon God controlled by TD at endgame <<< TD!Lavos.
Madoka (twice above baseline) <<< Supposed peak of UKG <<< Current UKG. The gap is like smaller than the one between DD and Fate.
I'm also pretty sure that Lavos can't look into the past of something that has no past, which is how he mimics powers.
As for intelligence by all means, make a CRT if you think that it's wrong.
"Massive hax advantage"? Explain it. Especially because most of what Lavos does can be done by Madoka as well.
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Going for UKG for Kal's reasons. (Also wouldn't Lavos absorbing UKG's curses just make it into an AoC 2.0? Food for thought) Though that reminds me, does Lavos even start with infinite dupes?
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Anyway, for now I vote UKG.
Better regen negates a good amount of Lavos' options, she has the intelligence advantage, actually has the versatility advantage (power fusion + a multiverse worth of abilities + power mimicry), and she can already affect all of existence + nonexistence so acausal dupes are more or less moot.
Better regen negates a good amount of Lavos' options, she has the intelligence advantage, actually has the versatility advantage (power fusion + a multiverse worth of abilities + power mimicry), and she can already affect all of existence + nonexistence so acausal dupes are more or less moot.
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btw Kalt. You should likely add "Nonexistent Physiology" to Gretchen as well as add her the the "Nonexistent Characters" category.
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UKG for reasons above.
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>Has versatility advantage
Lol. Lavos have everything you mentioned minus power fusion.
Still siding with Lavos. UKG shouldn't be omniscient first off, as every instance we see of her, there's not a single showing of intelligence. Lavos can easily affect her due to being able to nuke all of existence and nonexistence and can just hax her to oblivion via having far more abilities. He can just inflict death upon her, bypassing her regen. He passively absorbs magic, which is UKG's bread and butter, so she's out of options. Even if not, her powers get sealed.
Lol. Lavos have everything you mentioned minus power fusion.
Still siding with Lavos. UKG shouldn't be omniscient first off, as every instance we see of her, there's not a single showing of intelligence. Lavos can easily affect her due to being able to nuke all of existence and nonexistence and can just hax her to oblivion via having far more abilities. He can just inflict death upon her, bypassing her regen. He passively absorbs magic, which is UKG's bread and butter, so she's out of options. Even if not, her powers get sealed.
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UKG shouldn't be omniscient first off, as every instance we see of her, there's not a single showing of intelligence.
First of all, that's not stuff that you can dismiss in a vs thread without a CRT.
Second, literally the entire Wraith Arc is caused by UKG. That and she most likely has Ult. Madoka's nigh-omniscience because she has shown that she has part of her memories already.
Lavos can easily affect her due to being able to nuke all of existence and nonexistence
That's not the same as affect a nonexistent concept.
and can just hax her to oblivion via having far more abilities
Now how many of those kill her?
He can just inflict death upon her, bypassing her regen.
Which she resists, which she can do herself, which doesn't go through her immortality, and a simple "drop dead" spell won't bypass it, anyway.
He passively absorbs magic, which is UKG's bread and butter, so she's out of options
She does it herself, she has a metric ton of abilities that aren't magic, she resists it, curses (which are her actual bread and butter) are not magical energy, which is the reason why too many curses turn a magical girl into a witch.
Even if not, her powers get sealed.
Is this Omnilock? Quite sure that she resists power null that is better than that
First of all, that's not stuff that you can dismiss in a vs thread without a CRT.
Second, literally the entire Wraith Arc is caused by UKG. That and she most likely has Ult. Madoka's nigh-omniscience because she has shown that she has part of her memories already.
Lavos can easily affect her due to being able to nuke all of existence and nonexistence
That's not the same as affect a nonexistent concept.
and can just hax her to oblivion via having far more abilities
Now how many of those kill her?
He can just inflict death upon her, bypassing her regen.
Which she resists, which she can do herself, which doesn't go through her immortality, and a simple "drop dead" spell won't bypass it, anyway.
He passively absorbs magic, which is UKG's bread and butter, so she's out of options
She does it herself, she has a metric ton of abilities that aren't magic, she resists it, curses (which are her actual bread and butter) are not magical energy, which is the reason why too many curses turn a magical girl into a witch.
Even if not, her powers get sealed.
Is this Omnilock? Quite sure that she resists power null that is better than that
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At this point it's gonna be good to relax and enjoy a healthy dose of spectating a heated debate.
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First of all, that's not stuff that you can dismiss in a vs thread without a CRT.
Second, literally the entire Wraith Arc is caused by UKG. That and she most likely has Ult. Madoka's nigh-omniscience because she has shown that she has part of her memories already.
Fine
That's not the same as affect a nonexistent concept.
Since when was UKG a concept? She was conceptually erased, sure, but she regenerated from that. It didn't make her nonexistent because she returned to normal.
Now how many of those kill her?
Incap. Plus absorption. Even if she regenerates from that, she still has to deal with seven UKGs that will serve Lavos until the end.
Which she resists, which she can do herself, which doesn't go through her immortality, and a simple "drop dead" spell won't bypass it, anyway.
None sans the death manipulation are on her profile (by that I mean she has the ability, but not the resistance to it), and immortality doesn't stop the grim reaper from inflicting death.
She does it herself, she has a metric ton of abilities that aren't magic, she resists it, curses (which are her actual bread and butter) are not magical energy, which is the reason why too many curses turn a magical girl into a witch.
Except that curses are magic to Lavos, so that doesn't mean anything. And Lavos's is better, given that he created magic to begin with.
Even if not, her powers get sealed.
Is this Omnilock? Quite sure that she resists power null that is better than that.
It's not. It comes from the ability to make all of UKG's options fall under a certain element, which Lavos absorbs or has sealing for it. And once again, not on her profile.
Second, literally the entire Wraith Arc is caused by UKG. That and she most likely has Ult. Madoka's nigh-omniscience because she has shown that she has part of her memories already.
Fine
That's not the same as affect a nonexistent concept.
Since when was UKG a concept? She was conceptually erased, sure, but she regenerated from that. It didn't make her nonexistent because she returned to normal.
Now how many of those kill her?
Incap. Plus absorption. Even if she regenerates from that, she still has to deal with seven UKGs that will serve Lavos until the end.
Which she resists, which she can do herself, which doesn't go through her immortality, and a simple "drop dead" spell won't bypass it, anyway.
None sans the death manipulation are on her profile (by that I mean she has the ability, but not the resistance to it), and immortality doesn't stop the grim reaper from inflicting death.
She does it herself, she has a metric ton of abilities that aren't magic, she resists it, curses (which are her actual bread and butter) are not magical energy, which is the reason why too many curses turn a magical girl into a witch.
Except that curses are magic to Lavos, so that doesn't mean anything. And Lavos's is better, given that he created magic to begin with.
Even if not, her powers get sealed.
Is this Omnilock? Quite sure that she resists power null that is better than that.
It's not. It comes from the ability to make all of UKG's options fall under a certain element, which Lavos absorbs or has sealing for it. And once again, not on her profile.
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Why you invert the pattern with the bolded characters <.<
Literally the first iteration of UKG is a void that was conceptually deleted. Heck it's why Lavos is nonexistent but with conceptual erasure.
UKG's duplication is so ridiculously above seven though.
Show said spell killing someone with regen and immortality like UKG. It is on her profile also. Resistance to Madoka's powers.
Yeah, which kind of curses? Lavos' magic is also definitely not better. A "powerful enough magic user" in PMMM bends the multiverse to her will. It's reality warping. How is Lavos' magic like, besides basic RPG stuff?
You aren't actually saying that Lavos can turn concept manipulation into an elemental spell, right?
Anyway going to bed now, will reply tomorrow
Literally the first iteration of UKG is a void that was conceptually deleted. Heck it's why Lavos is nonexistent but with conceptual erasure.
UKG's duplication is so ridiculously above seven though.
Show said spell killing someone with regen and immortality like UKG. It is on her profile also. Resistance to Madoka's powers.
Yeah, which kind of curses? Lavos' magic is also definitely not better. A "powerful enough magic user" in PMMM bends the multiverse to her will. It's reality warping. How is Lavos' magic like, besides basic RPG stuff?
You aren't actually saying that Lavos can turn concept manipulation into an elemental spell, right?
Anyway going to bed now, will reply tomorrow
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Lavos' absorbtion was never downgraded, what are you talking about?DodoNova2 said:
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He did say absorption tho, not regen.
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Fixed it.Homu Sweet Homu said:
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Why you invert the pattern with the bolded characters <.<
Don't question my motives ovo
Literally the first iteration of UKG is a void that was conceptually deleted. Heck it's why Lavos is nonexistent but with conceptual erasure.
Nope. Lavos, or the Dream Devourer anyway, is nonexistent because he came into being while in an erased place. UKG was existent, granted in a different timeline, and then got erased, only to regenerate. That's not a showing of nonexistence. Otherwise, every mid godly regenerator has it.
UKG's duplication is so ridiculously above seven though.
Completely missed my point. The point was that UKG alone is already hard pressed by Lavos. Try UKG vs Lavos while Lavos has seven UKGs that are stronger than the normal UKG (due to the power difference between Lavos and UKG), with all of UKGs powers.
Show said spell killing someone with regen and immortality like UKG. It is on her profile also. Resistance to Madoka's powers.
Where does "Resistance to Madoka's powers" come from? White Light of Salvation and Purification aren't even death manipulation. They're OHKO attacks. Is that an assumption? There's too many assumptions on that profile for my liking anyway, but I'll go past that. Said spell of summoning the grim reaper works on beings like Harle, and UKG's immortality doesn't provide any resistances to instantaneous death, because an immortal doesn't die. You have to prove that UKG will no-sell that.
Yeah, which kind of curses? Lavos' magic is also definitely not better. A "powerful enough magic user" in PMMM bends the multiverse to her will. It's reality warping. How is Lavos' magic like, besides basic RPG stuff?
Proofs? I have never heard that claim before, and still sounds hyperbolic. But to answer your question, the titular Chrono Trigger is a magical item. Time Devourer is (insert infinite ">"s) above that.
You aren't actually saying that Lavos can turn concept manipulation into an elemental spell, right?
Pause. Where does UKG use conceptual manipulation? Also, given that the thing I'm talking about works on Lavos' own stuff...
Anyway going to bed now, will reply tomorrow
Night, buddy.
Don't question my motives ovo
Literally the first iteration of UKG is a void that was conceptually deleted. Heck it's why Lavos is nonexistent but with conceptual erasure.
Nope. Lavos, or the Dream Devourer anyway, is nonexistent because he came into being while in an erased place. UKG was existent, granted in a different timeline, and then got erased, only to regenerate. That's not a showing of nonexistence. Otherwise, every mid godly regenerator has it.
UKG's duplication is so ridiculously above seven though.
Completely missed my point. The point was that UKG alone is already hard pressed by Lavos. Try UKG vs Lavos while Lavos has seven UKGs that are stronger than the normal UKG (due to the power difference between Lavos and UKG), with all of UKGs powers.
Show said spell killing someone with regen and immortality like UKG. It is on her profile also. Resistance to Madoka's powers.
Where does "Resistance to Madoka's powers" come from? White Light of Salvation and Purification aren't even death manipulation. They're OHKO attacks. Is that an assumption? There's too many assumptions on that profile for my liking anyway, but I'll go past that. Said spell of summoning the grim reaper works on beings like Harle, and UKG's immortality doesn't provide any resistances to instantaneous death, because an immortal doesn't die. You have to prove that UKG will no-sell that.
Yeah, which kind of curses? Lavos' magic is also definitely not better. A "powerful enough magic user" in PMMM bends the multiverse to her will. It's reality warping. How is Lavos' magic like, besides basic RPG stuff?
Proofs? I have never heard that claim before, and still sounds hyperbolic. But to answer your question, the titular Chrono Trigger is a magical item. Time Devourer is (insert infinite ">"s) above that.
You aren't actually saying that Lavos can turn concept manipulation into an elemental spell, right?
Pause. Where does UKG use conceptual manipulation? Also, given that the thing I'm talking about works on Lavos' own stuff...
Anyway going to bed now, will reply tomorrow
Night, buddy.
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@Cal
UKG has concept manip from Madoka.
UKG has concept manip from Madoka.
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I added another thing to the thread I made due to this thread. UKG shouldn't have half the things that Madoka has, given that UKG isn't Ultimate Madoka, and while she's born from the wish, she doesn't gain her abilities.
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Witches retains all the abilities they has when they were a magical girl.
Oktavia is an example of it.
Oktavia is an example of it.
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Witches have all the powers of their MG forms tho, and UKG is just the witch form of Ultimate Madoka.The real cal howard said:
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I recall Oktavia throwing wheelbarrow wheels at the magical girls, and not doing half of the things that Sayaka did. I didn't see Kriemhild Gretchen (no Ultimate) using a single arrow in the times we've seen her in the show. Also, witches have so many variations, even in verse, that one showing does not become the rule.Homu Sweet Homu said:
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That's probably because Sayaka didn't have much hax to begin with, not to mention not much screentime.
We also don't see Kriemhild Gretchen actually fight, making it a rather big inequivalence. (Though doppel KG does use the arrows)
What variations?
Its not just one showing. Ophelia has dupes and fire manip, Candeloro has thread manip, etc, etc. This is the equivalent of me asking if this Lavos should even have the hax of his other tabs.
And this is ignoring the fact that Ultimate Madoka isn't the reason UKG has that hax...
(I'll respond to your other comment later)
We also don't see Kriemhild Gretchen actually fight, making it a rather big inequivalence. (Though doppel KG does use the arrows)
What variations?
Its not just one showing. Ophelia has dupes and fire manip, Candeloro has thread manip, etc, etc. This is the equivalent of me asking if this Lavos should even have the hax of his other tabs.
And this is ignoring the fact that Ultimate Madoka isn't the reason UKG has that hax...
(I'll respond to your other comment later)
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UKG was stated to be non-existent (Via the PMMM Production Notes Translations) before that even happened. I think you're getting why she is rated as such messed up.
I... probably need context to respond to the UKG vs Lavos + 7 UKGs.
The resistance comes from the fact that even when Madoka puts everything in her favor, despite the fact that all her hax gets upscaled, she can't actually in cap or take down UKG, the closest was erasing her temporarily while UKG was 5-B.
Though now I need to know, where did you get that these attacks are OHKO and not death manipulation?
The bends the multiverse to their will is quite literally Madoka and Homura. Though being >>x infinity a magical item doesn't make you >>x infinity another being from another verse, ignoring the fact that PMMM curses aren't even magic.
Are you talking about where does UKG get it?
I... probably need context to respond to the UKG vs Lavos + 7 UKGs.
The resistance comes from the fact that even when Madoka puts everything in her favor, despite the fact that all her hax gets upscaled, she can't actually in cap or take down UKG, the closest was erasing her temporarily while UKG was 5-B.
Though now I need to know, where did you get that these attacks are OHKO and not death manipulation?
The bends the multiverse to their will is quite literally Madoka and Homura. Though being >>x infinity a magical item doesn't make you >>x infinity another being from another verse, ignoring the fact that PMMM curses aren't even magic.
Are you talking about where does UKG get it?
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