Ped2018
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Prime AM would defeat USJ Nomu with 5 punches, there's a lot of characters who scale to Prime AM
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My Hero Academia General Discussion Thread #18
- Thread starter TheRustyOne
- Start date
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Chapter 358: The surging hands are surely a massive threat. But in exchange he has forsaken that mobility reminiscent of All Might's.
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I was referring to his ability to punch people with his other hand, obviously he can’t run and jump around like all might but his normal speed isn’t affected.
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probably cuz he was faaar away from there , in a position where he dont really have much of a view of the place , in fact he could barely see king who was on top of a hill of rubble and everything else happened down on the bottom of that + it was night time and not everyone have super vision like saitama or garou who can see in full hd like how he did with tareo from dozen kilometers away or frikkin earth from Jupiter. opm characters probably have somewhat enhanced vision to certain degrees tho depending on the characters
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His speed is listed as massively hypersonic.
0.018s would be literally days for him.
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Tell me who reacted to the bullet? A character shooting a gun doesn’t translate to a supersonic feat.
He didn’t outpace his speech bubble in USJ.
Unless I’m misunderstanding the whole reason this even started was you saying we had supersonic feats without calcs as early as season 1 and 2. You haven’t shown anything like that.
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Remember folks. If only Mirko showed up at Kamino, she'd rip through AFO. No All Might needed. Endeavor, Edgeshot, or any pro hero couldn't do anything at the time as AFO was too strong (yet lost to AM), but they didn't think of our scaling chain.
This is the reason why people shrug off VSB as nonsense without even reading. Glad to demonstrate it in real-time, and see it alive and well.
This is the reason why people shrug off VSB as nonsense without even reading. Glad to demonstrate it in real-time, and see it alive and well.
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I'm not going to pretend that the scaling for MHA on the site is perfect, because I have plenty of issues with it myself, but whining about it in this fashion isn't going to fix anything.
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Fair, but I think you understand what I'm saying, more than most in this thread. But sure, I won't fill up the thread with more of this.
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People lost their minds here a long time ago. They are obsessed with putting everyone and their mother on All Might's level.
Funny thing is that final war AFO is still similar to Kamino AFO unless we say he got "prison gains" and Endeavor needed AFO to get 2 nerfs (Quirk Rebellion + his body not listening to him after the life support mask was broken) before he could even be of any threat to AFO yet we are supposed to believe Endeavor and other's like Mirko are not only above Kamino All Might but even on Prime All Might level, lol.
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- Thread starter
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I'd like to note that being unable to believe in something doesn't mean you're right, and I'm saying this in general and not pointing at anyone in particular.
How about respectfully disagreeing with someone's opinion and not belittling them because you think you're objectively correct and they're downplaying/wanking.
I'm just hoping people stay respectful, even if someone else doesn't give that same respect to you. Though I know that is difficult to do, as I struggle with it myself.
How about respectfully disagreeing with someone's opinion and not belittling them because you think you're objectively correct and they're downplaying/wanking.
I'm just hoping people stay respectful, even if someone else doesn't give that same respect to you. Though I know that is difficult to do, as I struggle with it myself.
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Are the Nomus not All Might level?
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All I'm saying is that people here ignore manga events in favor of the so-called powerscaling.
When people start putting forward arguments that literally contradict manga events like Kamino, naturally I and many others will be incredulous about this type of scaling.
Was Kamino really that far away for people to already start pretending as if Endeavor was stronger than All Might and AFO.
Anyway, I can't control anyone and everyone is free to come up with their own scaling. But I wish people recognized and acknowledged when their scaling doesn't fit in with events in the story.
When people start putting forward arguments that literally contradict manga events like Kamino, naturally I and many others will be incredulous about this type of scaling.
Was Kamino really that far away for people to already start pretending as if Endeavor was stronger than All Might and AFO.
Anyway, I can't control anyone and everyone is free to come up with their own scaling. But I wish people recognized and acknowledged when their scaling doesn't fit in with events in the story.
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Why didn’t you answer the question? It’s just a yes or a no.
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You know I've always disagreed with Nomu scaling. Let alone scaling High-ends to All Might, I don't even agree with scaling High-ends to each other.
I argued vehemently about this back in the day when stuff about the first war was being discussed and I was drowned out.
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I don't think any of these guys are the same level and have said so many times so asking if I think High-ends are All Might level when All Might would one tap some of them with zero defensive quirks while others may have defense quirks to tank several blows and keep going, others might have multiple strength quirks in addition to base strength, others might have a speed quirk, others hax, etc.
But High-end scaling here clearly ignores all that. In terms of High-ends, the general consensus is just "ignore their quirks".
But High-end scaling here clearly ignores all that. In terms of High-ends, the general consensus is just "ignore their quirks".
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So no. That explains, you don’t like the scaling and that’s alright but many others agree with it and th
This here isn’t that necessary over and interpretation
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If one High-end has Ojiro's quirk, another has Kirishima's quirk, another has Todoroki's quirk, why would they be put in the same level.
You would think they wouldn't be but that's the current High-end scaling on this site.
My full thoughts are that even if you scale them like that for convenience's sake, understand that that's actually not what's going on in the story.
- We have USJ Nomu with one of the best defensive quirks in the series. He isn't a High-end but that doesn't really matter in the discussion of quirks. There's literally a Grey Nomu that tanked, absorbed, and spit out Endeavor's flames back in Hosu with the Absorption and Release quirk.
- We have Hood with literally 3 superstrength quirks and a flight/speed quirk but no named defensive quirk.
- We have robot with the only hax among the High-ends plus lasers but no mentioned strength or defence quirk.
- Ribby used layers of bone under his skin to tank Endeavor's FlashFire and can also sprout a skeleton armor to block Mirko's kicks.
But when it comes to scaling these High-ends, all these quirks which greatly impact Nomu defence, strength, speed, and hax get ignored and they all get tossed in one category.
If it was some fodder white Nomu, if it has a powerful quirk like Muscular's Pump Up or Flect's Reflect or Nine's weather manipulation, clearly it would be understood that the quirk makes a difference.
So I don't understand why we suddenly have to act as if the nature, specialization, and literal power level of the quirks don't matter for High-ends.
You would think they wouldn't be but that's the current High-end scaling on this site.
My full thoughts are that even if you scale them like that for convenience's sake, understand that that's actually not what's going on in the story.
- We have USJ Nomu with one of the best defensive quirks in the series. He isn't a High-end but that doesn't really matter in the discussion of quirks. There's literally a Grey Nomu that tanked, absorbed, and spit out Endeavor's flames back in Hosu with the Absorption and Release quirk.
- We have Hood with literally 3 superstrength quirks and a flight/speed quirk but no named defensive quirk.
- We have robot with the only hax among the High-ends plus lasers but no mentioned strength or defence quirk.
- Ribby used layers of bone under his skin to tank Endeavor's FlashFire and can also sprout a skeleton armor to block Mirko's kicks.
But when it comes to scaling these High-ends, all these quirks which greatly impact Nomu defence, strength, speed, and hax get ignored and they all get tossed in one category.
If it was some fodder white Nomu, if it has a powerful quirk like Muscular's Pump Up or Flect's Reflect or Nine's weather manipulation, clearly it would be understood that the quirk makes a difference.
So I don't understand why we suddenly have to act as if the nature, specialization, and literal power level of the quirks don't matter for High-ends.
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You disagree with the scaling, bash anyone who agrees with the scaling in the general thread, why not make a CRT about it since it’s this serious?
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High Ends are, verbatim from the doctor, higher in statistics than all other Nomu. Nomu are divided into tiers based on their quirks AND THEIR PHYSICAL ENHANCEMENTS.
We’ve been over this several times, but you are just in constant denial over the fact that the High Ends are that strong cause you have this fixation on people not scaling to All Might.
Quirks are only one part of what makes High Ends as strong as they are. The other part is that they are physically powerful without any quirks activated, something the USJ Nomu is literally known for, as well as Shigaraki. One of our examples of this is LITERALLY AIZAWA stating that Shigaraki is as strong as a completed Nomu, with his flashbacks being of the USJ Nomu hurting him, and one of the High Ends hurting him. They are comparable to each other.
Your insistence that Quirks are the only thing that matters with High Ends is REFUTED BY THE VERSE ITSELF.
We’ve been over this several times, but you are just in constant denial over the fact that the High Ends are that strong cause you have this fixation on people not scaling to All Might.
Quirks are only one part of what makes High Ends as strong as they are. The other part is that they are physically powerful without any quirks activated, something the USJ Nomu is literally known for, as well as Shigaraki. One of our examples of this is LITERALLY AIZAWA stating that Shigaraki is as strong as a completed Nomu, with his flashbacks being of the USJ Nomu hurting him, and one of the High Ends hurting him. They are comparable to each other.
Your insistence that Quirks are the only thing that matters with High Ends is REFUTED BY THE VERSE ITSELF.
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“Possessing stats beyond those of the upper tier Nomu”
-> literally a picture of USJ Nomu, which is referenced again by Aizawa himself who accurately said the USJ Nomu is as strong as weakened All Might
Man I SURE WONDER WHAT THE HELL HORIKOSHI IS SAYING ABOUT HOW STRONG THE HIGH ENDS ARE WITHOUT QUIRKS, ITS A REAL MYSTERY
-> literally a picture of USJ Nomu, which is referenced again by Aizawa himself who accurately said the USJ Nomu is as strong as weakened All Might
Man I SURE WONDER WHAT THE HELL HORIKOSHI IS SAYING ABOUT HOW STRONG THE HIGH ENDS ARE WITHOUT QUIRKS, ITS A REAL MYSTERY
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- Thread starter
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Throwing my own hat here.
USJ Nomu is an Upper-Tier Nomu. The USJ Nomu is confirmed to have physical strength on par with Weakened All Might via statements and scaling. Aizawa realizes that the USJ Nomu's strength is on par with All Might while Quirkless, meaning this was done via the enhancement from the doctor.
High-Ends are Nomu that are stated by the doctor to be his finest work, he even calls them super Nomu. He later state that they possess stats above that of the Upper Tier Nomu, with the panel straight up showing the USJ Nomu. We know the USJ Nomu's strength was done via enhancements. Going by the creator's statements, the High-Ends are above the USJ Nomu.
The Ultra Analysis Book has a section for Hood/High-End, and straight up confirms that Hood's abilities are more powerful than any other previous Nomu.
Near High-Ends, which are stated to be as strong as Hood, are shown to have durability on par with Incomplete Shigaraki. As shown when the Winged High-End take hits from Star and Stripe's attack and takes similar damage as Shigaraki did. With nothing suggesting it has some special passive durability Quirk. When the Nomu use Quirks to enhance their physical abilities itwas made clear. Such as with Hood or the Elephant High-End's muscle growing in size.
At this point it's clear that the High-Ends physical abilities should scale to the USJ Nomu.
The Nomu can vary via Quirks, no one is denying that. However that's irrelevant as the reasoning above places their base strength is All Might level.
USJ Nomu is an Upper-Tier Nomu. The USJ Nomu is confirmed to have physical strength on par with Weakened All Might via statements and scaling. Aizawa realizes that the USJ Nomu's strength is on par with All Might while Quirkless, meaning this was done via the enhancement from the doctor.
High-Ends are Nomu that are stated by the doctor to be his finest work, he even calls them super Nomu. He later state that they possess stats above that of the Upper Tier Nomu, with the panel straight up showing the USJ Nomu. We know the USJ Nomu's strength was done via enhancements. Going by the creator's statements, the High-Ends are above the USJ Nomu.
The Ultra Analysis Book has a section for Hood/High-End, and straight up confirms that Hood's abilities are more powerful than any other previous Nomu.
Near High-Ends, which are stated to be as strong as Hood, are shown to have durability on par with Incomplete Shigaraki. As shown when the Winged High-End take hits from Star and Stripe's attack and takes similar damage as Shigaraki did. With nothing suggesting it has some special passive durability Quirk. When the Nomu use Quirks to enhance their physical abilities itwas made clear. Such as with Hood or the Elephant High-End's muscle growing in size.
At this point it's clear that the High-Ends physical abilities should scale to the USJ Nomu.
The Nomu can vary via Quirks, no one is denying that. However that's irrelevant as the reasoning above places their base strength is All Might level.
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I don't like Nomus's scaling either, but it's what the manga shows (unfortunately) and I agree with it, unless evidence is found to refute that (although I think we should be a little more strict with those who scale to them ).
I do have a few things to say though (to be honest mostly based on my laziness to reread MHA for the 3rd or 4th time) In order not to bother too much, I am going to use "quotes" instead of "replys"
There are more things I wanted to say, but I forgot to note while reading (I was behind from the middle of page 304 of the thread, I wanted to read fast and catch up) so I'll leave it here
But due to the fact that several here seem to have had enough of the discussion and have become a bit aggressive (both sides) I will repeat it: My position is in favor of scaling the Nomus, although I hate said scaling. Here are just minor things that I wanted to say/ask because it is what I remember from what came to my head while reading, which is basically bits and pieces of the last few comments.
I do have a few things to say though (to be honest mostly based on my laziness to reread MHA for the 3rd or 4th time) In order not to bother too much, I am going to use "quotes" instead of "replys"
- Shouldn't the U.S.J. Nomu quirk defend him from his own blows? the recoil from his own blows is still a product of sheer physical force, and if he can take hits via Shock Absorption, chances are it will apply to him recoil as well (I have no real proof of this... so I'll try refute nothing, it's just a question)
- I remember that at some point the Japanese scan was translated to verify the veracity of that panel, does anyone know where it is?
- Do we use the MHA databooks? I didn't know.
- What exactly does the book mean by abilities? strength?
- What Aizawa is saying is that Shigaraki is like a perfect Nomu, in the sense that he can't take away his super strength due to it not coming from a quirk, the flaskback itself doesn't say anything about a specific power level
(Aizawa shouldn't be a reliable source, the only thing the U.S.J Nomu had done was break his arm easily, and prevent Aizawa from breaking free before the statement [chapter 16-17])
There are more things I wanted to say, but I forgot to note while reading (I was behind from the middle of page 304 of the thread, I wanted to read fast and catch up) so I'll leave it here
But due to the fact that several here seem to have had enough of the discussion and have become a bit aggressive (both sides) I will repeat it: My position is in favor of scaling the Nomus, although I hate said scaling. Here are just minor things that I wanted to say/ask because it is what I remember from what came to my head while reading, which is basically bits and pieces of the last few comments.
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This could be the case but unlikely, if it was absorbing the physical brunt of his own force then his own attacks wouldn’t have any effect as that exerted force is being absorbed.
Yeah.
Strength.
But he says his strength is like that of a Nomu. Mentioning the level of strength he has. Endeavor directly states that he’s as strong as All Might
I say this a lot but Aizawa isn’t a conscious character, his statements are direct words implemented by the author, if it’s to relay direct information to us viewers then there’s no reason to not take them to face value, especially when they have 0 narrative reason to lie.
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I never talked about anyone reacting to the bullet. What are you talking about?
You talking about Shigaraki? I never said he did that in USJ.
I was talking about Iida's and Shoto's feats being subsonic, and your counterargument is that... they are not supersonic.
There's clearly some huge misunderstanding that happened over the course of the conversation and it's not from my part.
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Can you point out the comments saying Mirko is on Prime All Might's level?
You're also having a massive, cricital misunderstanding here. Just because characters are put on the same level as others, doesn't necessarily mean they would definitively defeat these characters.
Yes, some users here think they do. But I think you're intelligent enough to know that this forum is not a monolith and you're going to receive different opinions on things.
This obsession of putting All Might and All For One astronomically above everything, physical stats-wise, goes against what happens in the manga. Personally speaking, I wouldn't say y'all lost your minds too but this is clouding your judgment to conform to your bias.
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Since Rusty and Kingofwolves have graciously provided the reasonings behind the High End scaling, I'm instead going to address the main arguments from the opposition.
Does this mean Endeavor and Edgeshot are portrayed to be capable of harming All For One and/or matching his AP? YES. That's why they scale.
Obviously, All For One has the edge on raw power and versatility. We saw him overpower the heroes with a large scale Air Cannon. That's not a counterargument to the scaling at all though, so I'm not sure why some people think it is.
I'm actually convinced that some people here are confused that "scaling" means Character A beats Character B, when we're really talking about Character A can punch as hard as, or can hurt, Character B.
To those who are against the High End scaling, where exactly would you place the High Ends at?
Let's just say that this interpretation is actually agreed on by everybody. I'm just curious.
Shock Absorption
This whole braindead USJ Nomu debate came from people using the Shock Absorption Quirk argument which is a strawman.- Our wiki profiles never scaled the High Ends/Near High Ends to the Shock Absorption Quirk. Anyone can check the USJ Nomu's profiles and Hood's profiles and they have their own, separate justifications.
- The Shock Absorption Quirk did not allow the USJ Nomu to reach All Might levels of durability. It allowed the USJ Nomu to no sell All Might's attacks, to the point that All Might needed to go beyond his 100% to overpower it. USJ Nomu's durability was, effectively, above All Might's own attack power (and durability).
- Ergo, the USJ Nomu, at its base, was already made to be as powerful as All Might. That's where the High Ends scale from.
Kamino Incident
Some people love to cite this event when evidences of other characters scaling is present in this very event.- We see Endeavor cancel out All For One's Air Cannon.
- We see Edgeshot attack All For One, and All For One dodges.
Does this mean Endeavor and Edgeshot are portrayed to be capable of harming All For One and/or matching his AP? YES. That's why they scale.
Obviously, All For One has the edge on raw power and versatility. We saw him overpower the heroes with a large scale Air Cannon. That's not a counterargument to the scaling at all though, so I'm not sure why some people think it is.
- We know that Endeavor is weaker and slower than Hood, a High End that scales to the USJ Nomu.
- But we know that Endeavor is not that far behind Hood, and he was able to react to High End level attacks and harm High End level characters.
- We know of Endeavor's feats while fighting Shigaraki, someone who is compared to All Might and is superior to All For One, at least during Kamino events.
- We know that Endeavor and Hawks were a threat to All For One. AFO was superior to them, and AFO was nerfed, but so was Hawks and Endeavor was not only not at 100%, but All For One also relied on mind games to catch Endeavor off guard.
I'm actually convinced that some people here are confused that "scaling" means Character A beats Character B, when we're really talking about Character A can punch as hard as, or can hurt, Character B.
Extra Thoughts
I've actually been meaning to ask...To those who are against the High End scaling, where exactly would you place the High Ends at?
Let's just say that this interpretation is actually agreed on by everybody. I'm just curious.
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What bro said above is 100% correct, AFO fights with his insane catalogue of quirks not just his brute strength, just because someone scales to his base strength doesn't mean he wouldn't low diff them.
I guess there's this obsession with people trying to place all might and AFO on a pedestal (not just on this website), bro just because they scale to their strength doesn't mean they wouldn't get low diffed.
I guess there's this obsession with people trying to place all might and AFO on a pedestal (not just on this website), bro just because they scale to their strength doesn't mean they wouldn't get low diffed.
Bruh
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Honestly Endeavor vs AFO was pretty close all things considered. Yeah AFO's quirks briefly rebelled and his mask got broken but Endeavor was pretty crippled as well before the 2 went 1v1. His sides got bitten off due to AFO's taunting, his arm got shredded protecting Hawks and the students not to mention he's weaker and slower than AFO to begin with and is constantly overheating himself.
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I was more so thinking along the lines of miruko but yeah, you might be right
Although even with miruko how does she compare to USJ all might in speed?
Bruh
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My guts is telling she's faster than Endeavor but slower than Hawks which still make her slower than USJ AM/Kamino AFO
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I'd put Mirko's combat speed to be possibly on par with Hawks but not her movement speed.
Note that the only reason Mirko got severely injured by the High Ends was because she sacrificed her defense in order to complete her mission, which was to prevent Shigaraki from awakening.
While she was no longer landing hits on the High Ends, those High Ends weren't landing hits on her either, and there were multiple of them simultaneously attacking her.
Note that the only reason Mirko got severely injured by the High Ends was because she sacrificed her defense in order to complete her mission, which was to prevent Shigaraki from awakening.
While she was no longer landing hits on the High Ends, those High Ends weren't landing hits on her either, and there were multiple of them simultaneously attacking her.
Bruh
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Damn Mirko is more cracked than I remember, she as fast as High-ends, strong enough to oneshot them, has enough LS to restrain them, has enormous stamina. Honestly the only thing holding her back is her upper body's Dura which is only comparable to Endeavor's, her upper body's LS which is unknown and her range. I don't know what everyone's consensus on this but I personally think she would win high-diff against USJ AM
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I have always disagreed with particular aspects of MHA scaling on this site and I have always made myself clear. If the majority don't agree it is fine.
There is no point in acting as if I am insulting or being rude to anyone. Read through my comments again.
All I say is that while power scaling is a fine activity to partake in, one should be of 2 minds and understand the difference between scaling and what's actually in the manga.
This understanding would eliminate the confusion and incredulity that happens when certain events or certain things are said in the manga.
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For the record, I actually do take into consideration regarding Gitagon's point with regards to High Ends and their Quirks.
But regardless of that being valid or not, the High Ends scaling to the USJ Nomu is as valid and as canon as it gets. So it's astounding whenever this accusation about how the scaling differs from the manga is brought up in relation to that.
Calculation yields? Sure, that is an actual interpretation of feats and scaling based on that may differ from what the manga wants to portray sometimes.
However, the manga making comparisons between the Nomus is excluded from that. This is the scaling the manga itself created.
But regardless of that being valid or not, the High Ends scaling to the USJ Nomu is as valid and as canon as it gets. So it's astounding whenever this accusation about how the scaling differs from the manga is brought up in relation to that.
Calculation yields? Sure, that is an actual interpretation of feats and scaling based on that may differ from what the manga wants to portray sometimes.
However, the manga making comparisons between the Nomus is excluded from that. This is the scaling the manga itself created.
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I think we understand the "chain".
We're more so squabbling over how accurate we think it would be in verse and contextualized.
For example with the scenario of Mirko replacing All Might against AFO in Kamino.
People here think she would rip through both All Might and AFO.
While I think she would get dealt with just as quickly as Mount Lady, Jeanist, Gang Orca, etc.
And at best, function as a temporary distraction like Endeavor and Edgeshot did before they also got blown away by AFO.
While All Might was the only real threat against him.
While the implication of Mirko and Endeavor damaging HEN's makes sense in a "power scaling" way.
I don't think it makes sense for them to be "All Might level" in the story.
Technically, this has been demonstrated with Endeavor talking about the gap between them and how he and the other heroes fared against AFO compared to All Might at Kamino.
Maybe that clarifies my position or view a bit more.
That said, It wasn't my intention to create several pages worth of arguments when I understand the idea, and I apologize for this mess if people read through it.
We're more so squabbling over how accurate we think it would be in verse and contextualized.
For example with the scenario of Mirko replacing All Might against AFO in Kamino.
People here think she would rip through both All Might and AFO.
While I think she would get dealt with just as quickly as Mount Lady, Jeanist, Gang Orca, etc.
And at best, function as a temporary distraction like Endeavor and Edgeshot did before they also got blown away by AFO.
While All Might was the only real threat against him.
While the implication of Mirko and Endeavor damaging HEN's makes sense in a "power scaling" way.
I don't think it makes sense for them to be "All Might level" in the story.
Technically, this has been demonstrated with Endeavor talking about the gap between them and how he and the other heroes fared against AFO compared to All Might at Kamino.
Maybe that clarifies my position or view a bit more.
That said, It wasn't my intention to create several pages worth of arguments when I understand the idea, and I apologize for this mess if people read through it.
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So again, considering this entire argument that took place, why not make a CRT bc this changed nothing and just waste time? And yeah, you were insulting.
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