Mustache Man vs Tooru

[Chariot190]

Destroying the world doesn't inherently get rid of Calamity (if he destroyed it and left it completely destroyed as a void of nothing then idk probably), especially when Ywach himself could easily be considered a Calamity or the act of doing that in the first place 100% being a Calamity. You need to flat out get rid of calamity. or do some weird logic shit. The former is tough because all calamity is is "something that is detrimental or can be seen as bad", even tripping or bumping into something is a calamity, and so is dying from cancer in ten years, and so is exploding into bits of gore, it's extremely broad.
And isn't a new world taking its place? Why would that new world not have calamity in it? Calamity is a natural law, not unlike something like gravity, if the new world has calamity it kinda defeats the purpose of doing that in the first place.
And doesn't that require him to like, destroy the soul society? How would he even do that from central park? I thought he did it via chain reaction involving destroying something else entirely.

Thirdly, why the **** would Ywach even do that?

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Destroying the world doesn't inherently get rid of Calamity (if he destroyed it and left it completely destroyed as a void of nothing then idk probably), especially when Ywach himself could easily be considered a Calamity or the act of doing that in the first place 100% being a Calamity. You need to flat out get rid of calamity. or do some weird logic shit. The former is tough because all calamity is is "something that is detrimental or can be seen as bad", even tripping or bumping into something is a calamity, and so is dying from cancer in ten years, and so is exploding into bits of gore, it's extremely broad.

I'm going by what the AE pages said as per wiki standards, for him to survive beyond universal destruction then he would need feats of embodying the concept of calamity beyond a universal scale.

And isn't a new world taking its place? Why would that new world not have calamity in it? Calamity is a natural law, not unlike something like gravity, if the new world has calamity it kinda defeats the purpose of doing that in the first place.

If he were to do that then the new world would be something like the Original World which existed millions of years ago before the soul king split it into three new realms, this original world relies on an entirely different laws and systems as the system of causality in this world is already vastly different from the one that exist currently. So it is dubious to say the least when you say that "Calamity is a natural law" when the Original world relies on an entirely different set of systems before it was shaped into the realms that Bleach is composed of.

Heck, the concept of life and death didn't even exist during that time...

Thirdly, why the **** would Ywach even do that?

Functionally, he has the almighty which he uses to understand the nature of things that is within his gaze. Once he realize that such drastic measures are needed to destroy WoU which is an abstraction, he'll do it.

Tecnhically, this is a hypothetical vs match that is unbound by narrative conventions and the story from which they embody. At best, the only thing that is considered from their original stories aside from their powers and abilities is character.

As per SBA, this match is set as "In character but willing to kill" which means that Yhwach would go by the conventions of how he does things and through the Almighty he'll realize just how extreme he has to go to murk WoU.

 

[Shey]

I'm going by what the AE pages said as per wiki standards, for him to survive beyond universal destruction then he would need feats of embodying the concept of calamity beyond a universal scale.


If he were to do that then the new world would be something like the Original World which existed millions of years ago before the soul king split it into three new realms, this original world relies on an entirely different laws and systems as the system of causality in this world is already vastly different from the one that exist currently. So it is dubious to say the least when you say that "Calamity is a natural law" when the Original world relies on an entirely different set of systems before it was shaped into the realms that Bleach is composed of.

Isn't this reliant on Bleach's Cosmology?
The whole Low 2-C ED collapse and all

 

[Chariot190]

I'm going by what the AE pages said as per wiki standards, for him to survive beyond universal destruction then he would need feats of embodying the concept of calamity beyond a universal scale.

You missed my point entirely. My point was, the fact that Yhwach is doing that or exists at all, could very well be a Calamity, it has nothing to do with scale or the range, in fact it's still within the confines of universal permeation, why? Because Yhwach, you guessed it, is an asshole and is still doing bad stuff.

If he were to do that then the new world would be something like the Original World which existed millions of years ago before the soul king split it into three new realms, this original world relies on an entirely different laws and systems as the system of causality in this world is already vastly different from the one that exist currently.

Ok so there is a new world.

So it is dubious to say the least when you say that "Calamity is a natural law" when the Original world relies on an entirely different set of systems before it was shaped into the realms that Bleach is composed of.

Does bad things happen in the original world? If the answer is yes then it isn't dubious, it simply has the prerequisite for WoU to exist.

Heck, the concept of life and death didn't even exist during that time...

\But does the concept of bad things exist? Things of inconvenience, things of detriment, anything you can think of that could be put under the umbrella term "bad". If the answer is yes, that is Calamity, and that is WoU.

Functionally, he has the almighty which he uses to understand the nature of things that is within his gaze. Once he realize that such drastic measures are needed to destroy WoU which is an abstraction, he'll do it.

Which in and of itself is a Calamity, destroying the whole universe is a Calamity if I've ever seen one

Tecnhically, this is a hypothetical vs match that is unbound by narrative conventions and the story from which they embody. At best, the only thing that is considered from their original stories aside from their powers and abilities is character.

Nope, in character motivations and quirks still do apply, last resorts or things they wouldn't do still indeed do apply. Unless we bloodlust them anyway.

As per SBA, this match is set as "In character but willing to kill" which means that Yhwach would go by the conventions of how he does things and through the Almighty he'll realize just how extreme he has to go to murk WoU.

Yeah except I'm saying if the new world has Calamity or the very fact that this in of itself would be considered a Calamity, on a absolutely insane scale at that, would just be giving WoU the means to continue existing. Yhwach has to destroy everything, get rid of the concept of what is effectively just "bad things", and then do nothing, ever again, not a single thing for the rest of time, because if he does, that would just give in to giving WoU the means to come back, unless he can somehow sever the ties of Calamity and logic, which I don't think he has the means to.

Like lad, a Calamity is anything bad, you stub your toe? Calamity? You get sick and die? Calamity? World war 2? Calamity. Your ******* phone doesn't turn on? Calamity. Yhwach blowing up the universe is a Calamity, Yhwach being an asshole is a Calamity. His options are to destroy the universe and then do nothing ever again so he doesn't make a new Calamity to spawn WoU, or sever the ties of the curse, the latter is far less insane but as said, can he even do that? If he could that'd make this so much less difficult.

 

[Harith0cell]

Incon fra

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

You missed my point entirely. My point was, the fact that Yhwach is doing that or exists at all, could very well be a Calamity, it has nothing to do with scale or the range, in fact it's still within the confines of universal permeation, why? Because Yhwach, you guessed it, is an asshole and is still doing bad stuff.



Ok so there is a new world.



Does bad things happen in the original world? If the answer is yes then it isn't dubious, it simply has the prerequisite for WoU to exist.



\But does the concept of bad things exist? Things of inconvenience, things of detriment, anything you can think of that could be put under the umbrella term "bad". If the answer is yes, that is Calamity, and that is WoU.



Which in and of itself is a Calamity, destroying the whole universe is a Calamity if I've ever seen one



Nope, in character motivations and quirks still do apply, last resorts or things they wouldn't do still indeed do apply. Unless we bloodlust them anyway.



Yeah except I'm saying if the new world has Calamity or the very fact that this in of itself would be considered a Calamity, on a absolutely insane scale at that, would just be giving WoU the means to continue existing. Yhwach has to destroy everything, get rid of the concept of what is effectively just "bad things", and then do nothing, ever again, not a single thing for the rest of time, because if he does, that would just give in to giving WoU the means to come back, unless he can somehow sever the ties of Calamity and logic, which I don't think he has the means to.

Like lad, a Calamity is anything bad, you stub your toe? Calamity? You get sick and die? Calamity? World war 2? Calamity. Your ******* phone doesn't turn on? Calamity. Yhwach blowing up the universe is a Calamity, Yhwach being an asshole is a Calamity. His options are to destroy the universe and then do nothing ever again so he doesn't make a new Calamity to spawn WoU, or sever the ties of the curse, the latter is far less insane but as said, can he even do that? If he could that'd make this so much less difficult.

I perfectly understand what you're saying here but this wasn't my point,

So basically what you're saying is,

"Calamity will still exist because Yhwach can be a source of calamity thus WoU will keep existing"

But what I'm trying to say when I mention this is that WoU will still need feats of surviving the destruction of his local universe where he embodies calamity (As per the page for Abstract Existence).

When Yhwach causes the collapse of the realms, a new world is born anew with different sets of systems and laws in place. Even if you make the case that calamity can still exist in this new world, WoU would still need feats of being able to survive the initial destruction of the previous universe where his abstraction exist at that specific level of reality.

Calamity can exist, but does that mean he was able to stick around to embody the same calamity that exists in this new world?

I perfectly get what you're saying when you say "Calamity can still exist so WoU can continue to exist" but that goes against the limitations that this site puts on AE and this can be clear grounds for NLF since you can just keep making the case that WoU can survive anybody that can erase abstractions since the very nature of erasing is calamity in and of itself....like that just doesn't sit well without feats to back that up.

Thus, my point is if WoU can only embody the concept of calamity at a local universal scale, it is not sufficient to say (as per AE limitations) to say that he can survive the destruction of the universe because calamity can continue to exist.

Once again,

• Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality. For example, Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he.

Also to debunk claims that it is out of character for Yhwach to do this, he was about to do this had he not lose during the Blood War so this is not above and beyond for Yhwach.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Isn't this reliant on Bleach's Cosmology?
The whole Low 2-C ED collapse and all

Reliant on the means for Yhwach to do it (Disturbing the flow of souls to cause the collapse of realms like what he did with the Garganta and subsequent realms).

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Anyways, it's not like this match is gonna get concluded anyways if Yhwach gets the dub.

That just proves it's a haxstomp and it wont get added.

Nothing I say will make it conclude other than just making it incon lol.

So I concede to incon instead of having it closed like every other Yhwach thread.

 

[Chariot190]

"Calamity will still exist because Yhwach can be a source of calamity thus WoU will keep existing"

Leaving out the specifics.

But what I'm trying to say when I mention this is that WoU will still need feats of surviving the destruction of his local universe where he embodies calamity (As per the page for Abstract Existence).

And that's the thing you're failing to understand, he doesn't need to survive because the thing he embodies, Calamity, isn't going away, Yhwach and the very fact he destroyed everything, is a Calamity in and of itself. Destroying the universe means **** all if the Calamity doesn't vanish with it.

When Yhwach causes the collapse of the realms, a new world is born anew with different sets of systems and laws in place. Even if you make the case that calamity can still exist in this new world, WoU would still need feats of being able to survive the initial destruction of the previous universe where his abstraction exist at that specific level of reality.

Easy, the Calamity, the thing he's bound to never vanished. He isn't bound to space, he isn't bound to time, he isn't bound to the universe, he's bound to Calamity, if Calamity exists so will he, it just so happens that Calamity permeates the universe, but Calamity isn't bound to the universe itself, the Calamity still exists, ergo, so does he. You're arguing "well the old universe he embodies is gone and this is a new universe so..." but that's the thing, you're talking about range but the new world is simply replacing the old one in the same spot, it ain't like this new world is ten universes away. If I had to compare, it'd be like assuming Pucci using MIH to destroy the old universe to birth a new one would kill WoU, it wouldn't, the new universe would have Calamity all the same and WoU would just spawn back in when Calamity starts manifesting again.

Calamity can exist, but does that mean he was able to stick around to embody the same calamity that exists in this new world?

Killing him temporarily isn't exactly a permanent solution lad.

I perfectly get what you're saying when you say "Calamity can still exist so WoU can continue to exist"

Well clearly not given you're arguing something as straightforward as this with me.

but that goes against the limitations that this site puts on AE

Quoting the generalization of the AE page as the base of your argument isn't gonna work lad, you realize they can work differently right depending on the AE in question? And that also assumes that all AE is universal, they could be multiversal, interdimensional, or like ten feet. And it also depends on what the abstraction is in general too. You think a dude blowing up the universe to kill an abstraction that won't die and will exist forever and spawn back as long as something is alive will work when his opponent itself is alive? No, his opponent's existence will keep him around even if everything else is ******, that wouldn't work in that case. Eternity gets ****** in that example because time itself, the thing he embodies, is gone forever, poof. But if time wasn't destroyed forever he'd be aight, even if the rest of the universe was indeed destroyed. But like what if an abstract who will survive as long as dogs exist, and he's fight a dong that blows up the universe killing all dogs, would that work? Idk probably not imo given his foe is a dog still exists or what about an abstract that embodies the absence of things but only in a 10km radius, what if his foe blows up the universe, would that work? Tbh I'd say it'd just make him even harder to kill because now there's nothing on steroids. The best case argument here is that these wouldn't work because time-space itself is gone, but you also gotta realize Yhwach's doesn't even do that

and this can be clear grounds for NLF since you can just keep making the case that WoU can survive anybody that can erase abstractions since the very nature of erasing is calamity in and of itself....like that just doesn't sit well without feats to back that up.

Yeah no shit, me this very thread if you actually read it.
"W̵o̵U̵ ̵s̵h̵o̵u̵l̵d̵n̵'̵t̵ ̵e̵v̵e̵n̵ ̵b̵e̵ ̵u̵s̵e̵d̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵m̵a̵t̵c̵h̵e̵s̵ ̵h̵o̵n̵e̵s̵t̵l̵y̵,̵ ̵w̵e̵ ̵n̵e̵e̵d̵ ̵m̵o̵r̵e̵ ̵i̵n̵f̵o̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵h̵i̵m̵ ̵f̵i̵r̵s̵t̵ ̵a̵n̵d̵ ̵h̵i̵s̵ ̵p̵o̵w̵e̵r̵s̵ ̵p̵r̵o̵n̵e̵ ̵t̵o̵ ̵N̵L̵F̵.̵"
But if people wanna use him in Vs matches, they're gonna have to deal with the wonky ass extrapolations, all we have is vague statements and explanations on his physiology and some weird statements putting him as the strongest villain in JoJo and basically unbeatable in theory.

And no, being able to erase Abstractions and the Calamity would work in killing WoU, in fact that's easy and straightforward and would work just fine, but when you do that by destroying the ******* universe and everything in it. Yeah no that's a tad different, that isn't getting rid of Calamity, that's just making the biggest Calamity of all.

Thus, my point is if WoU can only embody the concept of calamity at a local universal scale, it is not sufficient to say (as per AE limitations) to say that he can survive the destruction of the universe because calamity can continue to exist.

Unfortunately the new world is still on that same universal scale, it replaces. And when the Calamity that is annihilating everything still takes place in that same locale, that's still the same cosmology. Thirdly, Yhwach's ED isn't even low 2-C, it's 3-A, low 2-C is a hard "maybe" so this argument is kinda pointless anyway, who's to say he's even destroying the whole universe's space-time, if he was it wouldn't even be "possibly", it'd just be flat out.

Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality. For example, Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he.

Generalization never helps anyone and see above.

Also to debunk claims that it is out of character for Yhwach to do this, he was about to do this had he not lose during the Blood War so this is not above and beyond for Yhwach.

Yeah cool but that's a bit of a far cry from this situation. And that leaves out quite a bit of context. I also never said it was out of character, I said he's still bound to his character quirks, never said he wouldn't do this though I did ask why the **** would he. Not really debunking anything there, you're just repeating stuff.

Regardless, destroying the Calamity by making the biggest Calamity of all is a ******* stupid counterintuitive method of killing WoU because you aren't, you're just giving him a bigger thing to leech. Yhwach's ED is more 3-A than it is low 2-C so either way and the new world replaces it the old world in the same general locale, it'd be like arguing MIH would kill WoU by just resetting the universe, wouldn't work because the new universe has Calamity still. And lastly, I said like a week ago WoU shouldn't even be used in matches till we know more about it but people don't listen, you goddamn right he's prone to NLF, and the author doesn't help either by jacking his ass off to being untouchable by most of the verse, We gotta wait to use him unless said matches end up being straight forward or his foes have actual ways we can 100% be certain would work. Not the case here when the best option is "idk blow up the universe under the pretense that this ED is low 2-C and not 3-A and hope it doesn't count as a Calamity and hope that the replacement world doesn't have Calamity and hope the mere existence of this foe doesn't also constitute a Calamity". That shit is way to vague, of course I'm gonna have to say "yeah idk chief that doesn't sound like it's getting rid of Calamity".

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

And that's the thing you're failing to understand, he doesn't need to survive because the thing he embodies, Calamity, isn't going away, Yhwach and the very fact he destroyed everything, is a Calamity in and of itself. Destroying the universe means **** all if the Calamity doesn't vanish with it.

Not you ignoring how the wiki treats and puts limitations for Abstract Existence

Easy, the Calamity, the thing he's bound to never vanished. He isn't bound to space, he isn't bound to time, he isn't bound to the universe, he's bound to Calamity, if Calamity exists so will he, it just so happens that Calamity permeates the universe, but Calamity isn't bound to the universe itself, the Calamity still exists, ergo, so does he. You're arguing "well the old universe he embodies is gone and this is a new universe so..." but that's the thing, you're talking about range but the new world is simply replacing the old one in the same spot, it ain't like this new world is ten universes away. If I had to compare, it'd be like assuming Pucci using MIH to destroy the old universe to birth a new one would kill WoU, it wouldn't, the new universe would have Calamity all the same and WoU would just spawn back in when Calamity starts manifesting again.

I never brought up range here nor did I make the claim that matters and this part of your post perfectly cuts off to what my point leads to.

The new universe may have calamity, but why does that mean WoU would still exist?

Once again, look towards the example of the limitations that the wiki has on Abstract Existence.

"Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he."

The previous universe was destroyed but time still continues to flow in this new universe but why does Eternity die even though the abstraction he embodies still exists in the new universe?.....because of the reasoning I have copied and pasted like 2 times now.

"Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality." (As per, the wiki page for Abstract Existence.)

Once again, your claim requires Feats and statements within JJBA to back up up your claim that WoU's embodiment of calamity as an abstraction, goes beyond the confines of his local universe. The point here is not range, it's scale.

So until further notice, the same limitation applies to him the same way it applies to other beings with Abstract Existence based on the limitations that the wiki has on Abstract Existence.

Killing him temporarily isn't exactly a permanent solution lad.

Refer to the point I made in this post directly above this point here.

Well clearly not given you're arguing something as straightforward as this with me.

Refer to the point I made in this post directly above this point here.

Quoting the generalization of the AE page as the base of your argument isn't gonna work lad, you realize they can work differently right depending on the AE in question? And that also assumes that all AE is universal, they could be multiversal, interdimensional, or like ten feet. And it also depends on what the abstraction is in general too. You think a dude blowing up the universe to kill an abstraction that won't die and will exist forever and spawn back as long as something is alive will work when his opponent itself is alive? No, his opponent's existence will keep him around even if everything else is ******, that wouldn't work in that case. Eternity gets ****** in that example because time itself, the thing he embodies, is gone forever, poof. But if time wasn't destroyed forever he'd be aight, even if the rest of the universe was indeed destroyed. But like what if an abstract who will survive as long as dogs exist, and he's fight a dong that blows up the universe killing all dogs, would that work? Idk probably not imo given his foe is a dog still exists or what about an abstract that embodies the absence of things but only in a 10km radius, what if his foe blows up the universe, would that work? Tbh I'd say it'd just make him even harder to kill because now there's nothing on steroids. The best case argument here is that these wouldn't work because time-space itself is gone, but you also gotta realize Yhwach's doesn't even do that

once again,

Feats and Statements of WoU's abstraction of calamity existing beyond the universe he is currently confined in? Until you give solid feats, the same "generalization" still applies here as per wiki rules.

Yhwach isn't resetting the universe here, he is making it collapse and then merging it back anew to the Original World which permeates the realms that currently exist in Bleach, no at all the same as with MIH who resets the universe.

And no, Yhwach can do that lmao. Literally read the justification for his AP and I literally said this a few posts back,

It has Low 2-C potency via ED and it was able to affect 4D constructs such as the Bleach universe's space-time. (Through the Soul King's Almighty powers, the original world that existed millions of years before his death was split into three new ones and the cycle of life and death was created. Had Yhwach been victorious in the Quincy Blood War, he would have merged them back together with the same power.)

Yeah no shit, me this very thread if you actually read it.
"W̵o̵U̵ ̵s̵h̵o̵u̵l̵d̵n̵'̵t̵ ̵e̵v̵e̵n̵ ̵b̵e̵ ̵u̵s̵e̵d̵ ̵i̵n̵ ̵m̵a̵t̵c̵h̵e̵s̵ ̵h̵o̵n̵e̵s̵t̵l̵y̵,̵ ̵w̵e̵ ̵n̵e̵e̵d̵ ̵m̵o̵r̵e̵ ̵i̵n̵f̵o̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵h̵i̵m̵ ̵f̵i̵r̵s̵t̵ ̵a̵n̵d̵ ̵h̵i̵s̵ ̵p̵o̵w̵e̵r̵s̵ ̵p̵r̵o̵n̵e̵ ̵t̵o̵ ̵N̵L̵F̵.̵"
But if people wanna use him in Vs matches, they're gonna have to deal with the wonky ass extrapolations, all we have is vague statements and explanations on his physiology and some weird statements putting him as the strongest villain in JoJo and basically unbeatable in theory.

And no, being able to erase Abstractions and the Calamity would work in killing WoU, in fact that's easy and straightforward and would work just fine, but when you do that by destroying the ******* universe and everything in it. Yeah no that's a tad different, that isn't getting rid of Calamity, that's just making the biggest Calamity of all.

Calm down.

It's really funny how Yhwach was in the exact same place as you mentioned back when Bleach was serializing lol mans was banned off of vs threads cuz of his bullshit hax.

My point is that if you are "destroying the ******* universe and everything in it" then the abstract beings in that universe would need, once more, feats and statements that they embody the abstractions that they do beyond the scale that they do in their current universe where it's gonna be destroyed if they are to survive.

At this point you're just ignoring the limitations that the wiki puts on AE here by going on your own train of thought even though what you say requires feats.

Yeah, by what you say it totally makes sense that "destroying the ******* universe and everything in it." will not get rid of WoU.

But by the way the wiki treats Abstract Existence, it does. As long as feats and statements of WoU not embodying calamity at a scale beyond the universe he does exist then until further notice, this is enough to destroy him.

Unfortunately the new world is still on that same universal scale, it replaces. And when the Calamity that is annihilating everything still takes place in that same locale, that's still the same cosmology. Thirdly, Yhwach's ED isn't even low 2-C, it's 3-A, low 2-C is a hard "maybe" so this argument is kinda pointless anyway, who's to say he's even destroying the whole universe's space-time, if he was it wouldn't even be "possibly", it'd just be flat out.

No it doesn't lmao. Yhwach literally makes the realms collapse and merges it back to the state that predates the version it once was before the realms were separated and before concepts exists.

If you have gripes with Yhwach's tiering, then make a CRT about it. Nothing you have here is a solid debunk.

Generalization never helps anyone and see above.

And until further feats and statements, these same "generalizations" apply to WoU

If you don't like it then make another CRT that revises the way the wiki treats AE limitations.

Yeah cool but that's a bit of a far cry from this situation. And that leaves out quite a bit of context. I also never said it was out of character, I said he's still bound to his character quirks, never said he wouldn't do this though I did ask why the **** would he. Not really debunking anything there, you're just repeating stuff.

Regardless, destroying the Calamity by making the biggest Calamity of all is a ******* stupid counterintuitive method of killing WoU because you aren't, you're just giving him a bigger thing to leech. Yhwach's ED is more 3-A than it is low 2-C so either way and the new world replaces it the old world in the same general locale, it'd be like arguing MIH would kill WoU by just resetting the universe, wouldn't work because the new universe has Calamity still. And lastly, I said like a week ago WoU shouldn't even be used in matches till we know more about it but people don't listen, you goddamn right he's prone to NLF, and the author doesn't help either by jacking his ass off to being untouchable by most of the verse, We gotta wait to use him unless said matches end up being straight forward or his foes have actual ways we can 100% be certain would work. Not the case here when the best option is "idk blow up the universe under the pretense that this ED is low 2-C and not 3-A and hope it doesn't count as a Calamity and hope that the replacement world doesn't have Calamity and hope the mere existence of this foe doesn't also constitute a Calamity". That shit is way to vague, of course I'm gonna have to say "yeah idk chief that doesn't sound like it's getting rid of Calamity"

For this one, i'll just echo out everything that I have mentioned in this post for the nth time.

 

[Chariot190]

Not you ignoring how the wiki treats and puts limitations for Abstract Existence

Because I'm not? Doesn't take a genius to figure out a example listed isn't a catch all thing. I read it, I understand what it's saying, I also understand that greays exists and should probably think about things for a second or two before deciding if it's applicable.

I never brought up range here nor did I make the claim that matters and this part of your post perfectly cuts off to what my point leads to.

Except the fact you keep going on about Abstraction range being universal in locale. Literally range. Don't be semantic with me, it's literally what the limitation is talking about.

The new universe may have calamity, but why does that mean WoU would still exist?

Because the Calamity still exists
If the Calamity exists, let alone never went away, he too will still exist, this is like, literally how his powers work?

Once again, look towards the example of the limitations that the wiki has on Abstract Existence.

Would this be a bad time to mention other pages have limitation sections and are meant as a guideline in most cases and not standard defaults?
Better yet, stop clinging to a EXAMPLE of a limitation and thinking it works like that every time. Of course if you destroy the thing he embodies he'll go away, but like, what if the thing embodied wasn't completely destroyed Really makes you think. If Yhwach doesn't get rid of the very thing he must get rid of, it won't be doing anything.

>"Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he."

Yeah, he does, that's how Eternity works, but it ain't how like, Kracko works for example. I'm glad this has now become an Eternity match.

The previous universe was destroyed but time still continues to flow in this new universe but why does Eternity die even though the abstraction he embodies still exists in the new universe?.....because of the reasoning I have copied and pasted like 2 times now.

And what if time never went away? He'd still be around, he'd never have gone away, and Eternity is an odd case because his abstraction is explicitly bound to that universe's time. WoU isn't the same, he isn't bound to that universe's calamity, he's bound to Calamity within a universal range. There is a difference. It's not that Calamity is bound to the universe, it's the Calamity exists all throughout the universe, it's not like time where time is a direct facet of the universe, it just so happens Calamity exists everywhere. There is a crucial crux of your argument you're failing to understand and that's your example is about a character who's directly tied to his universe's existence. It has nothing to do with how we the wiki treat something, because if Calamity actually was tied to the explicitly same universe you'd actually be correct, but that isn't what it is, it's you not grasping that your example isn't as all encompassing as you think it is, this whole argument is dumb as ****, it relies on something working for WoU a certain way when it doesn't.

Once again, your claim requires Feats and statements within JJBA to back up up your claim that WoU's embodiment of calamity as an abstraction, goes beyond the confines of his local universe. The point here is not range, it's scale.

Yeah, so range.
As for feats and statements, I'd love to but that would require it working that way you're implying it does in order for there to be feats on the contrary . Tbh the existence of Love Train should be sufficient enough imo.

So until further notice, the same limitation applies to him the same way it applies to other beings with Abstract Existence based on the limitations that the wiki has on Abstract Existence.

Or, perhaps, that isn't the case being he's bound to Calamity and Yhwach isn't getting rid of Calamity but just making more? How hard is this to comprehend? You keep going on a tangent about how "well he's only bound to that universe, not this or that", when that isn't even how it works for him, he's bound to Calamity, WoU isn't bound to the universe, nor is Calamity bound to the universe. As long as Calamity exists within a universal range of him, given you're getting anal about that, he will continue to exist, the fact one universe went away means nothing if Calamity as a concept still exists after the universe ends and while it's ending, because WoU's abstraction was never bound to the universe to begin with. If Yhwach gets rid of the universe but by doing so creates a long lasting Calamity that lasts between both worlds, WoU literally is incapable of dying while that process is on going.
This isn't complex. This isn't even a limitation because you're acting like Calamity is bound to something it isn't. WoU's scale or whatever the hell you wanna call it could be as small as five feet for all it matters, if a Calamity exists within that threshold of him, he too, will exist, so when Yhwach blows up a universe or what not, and there's still a Calamity, why the **** do you think he's gonna drop dead?

Refer to the point I made in this post directly above this point here.

Yeah, it's wrong because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what his Type 8 is even reliant on.

Feats and Statements of WoU's abstraction of calamity existing beyond the universe he is currently confined in? Until you give solid feats, the same "generalization" still applies here as per wiki rules.

Feats and statements detailing a thing that isn't even a factor in how WoU works
Like what, you want me to say something like how Calamity exists throughout the whole JoJo multiverse or some shit? It isn't like the flow is a new concept, it was introduced in Part 7 and even retroactively applies to Part 1-6, hell Love Train actively uses the logic chain of the world in its abilities and that shit has Multiversal+ range. Calamity as a concept most certainly exists beyond the confines of one universe if that's what you're asking me.
But yet you keep going on about how WoU is somehow confined to the universe he's in, he isn't bound to the universe, he's bound to the Calamity, the Calamity exists within a universe, but the Calamity isn't bound to it the same way something like space is. If the world vanished but a Calamity was ongoing, he would still function because the thing he's an abstract of is still within his range and thus his Type 8 Immortality kicks in and he can not die. Hell you're so caught up on the abstraction part of things you're ignoring the Type 8 aspect of it.

Yhwach isn't resetting the universe here, he is making it collapse and then merging it back anew to the Original World which permeates the realms that currently exist in Bleach, no at all the same as with MIH who resets the universe.

Except MIH explicitly births a whole new timeline and the old space-time ceases to exist, it's a reset in name only, the raws explain what MIH does plain as day. And it is the same, or well, the end result is the same, old universe gone, new space-time takes its place.

And no, Yhwach can do that lmao. Literally read the justification for his AP and I literally said this a few posts back,

Yeah I did, ignoring his AP justification blows, and it doesn't say what you think it says.

It has Low 2-C potency via ED and it was able to affect 4D constructs such as the Bleach universe's space-time. (Through the Soul King's Almighty powers, the original world that existed millions of years before his death was split into three new ones and the cycle of life and death was created. Had Yhwach been victorious in the Quincy Blood War, he would have merged them back together with the same power.)

"3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction"
I'm seeing a possibly Low 2-C. What I said remains factually true, it's not even a flat out thing, if it was, there would be no possibly, it'd be flat out. If it's only 3-A, your whole argument is utterly pointless because he wouldn't even be destroying the confines of the universe WoU is in, he'd just be destroying what's in it, not the actual space-time continuum.

>Calm down.

The most obnoxious thing one can do is assume how one's feeling based on internet text lad.

It's really funny how Yhwach was in the exact same place as you mentioned back when Bleach was serializing lol mans was banned off of vs threads cuz of his bullshit hax.

Cool.

My point is that if you are "destroying the ******* universe and everything in it" then the abstract beings in that universe would need, once more, feats and statements that they embody the abstractions that they do beyond the scale that they do in their current universe where it's gonna be destroyed if they are to survive.

Depends on the Abstract, depends on a lot of shit actually. WoU's Abstraction isn't bound to the universe, but it does have universal range. If D4C popped out and moved him to a new universe, WoU wouldn't drop dead because he was removed from his old universe and put in a new one, he'd be fine because Calamity still exists in that universe so his Type 8 kicks in. If Yhwach destroyed the universe, got rid of all calamity, then did nothing ever again and didn't make a new world and assuming this ED is actually the low 2-C high end and not the 3-A end, it could work, but the "doesn't do anything ever again" or "doesnt make a new world" part is the issue.

At this point you're just ignoring the limitations that the wiki puts on AE here by going on your own train of thought even though what you say requires feats.

Lad, it's less ignoring and more being able to pick up on the fact not everything is black and white. I could list a million things that wouldn't fall under that. And I say this doubly so in that if a new world develops in the same place the old world was destroyed, WoU's range would kick in regardless.
Like come on, if Yhwach ends the universe by making a Calamity that extends till a new world is born, WoU literally can't die in that time

Yeah, by what you say it totally makes sense that "destroying the ******* universe and everything in it." will not get rid of WoU.

I mean yeah, obviously, because it's a Calamity and the very thing that makes it so he can not die is literally happening. This is effectively like trying to kill a dude who will never die as long as there's explosions by killing him with a ******* explosion.

But by the way the wiki treats Abstract Existence, it does. As long as feats and statements of WoU not embodying calamity at a scale beyond the universe he does exist then until further notice, this is enough to destroy him.

My dude, you realize that's an example of a limitation, it's not saying all Abstracts have that exact limitation nor is it automatically applied to literally everyone, because that's dumb, you need to look at the character themselves and draw conclusions based on what we know of how they work. If WoU can't die if there's Calamity and some mustached dude proceeded to create a Calamity, why in the hell would he die? He wouldn't.

I stand by this.

No it doesn't lmao. Yhwach literally makes the realms collapse and merges it back to the state that predates the version it once was before the realms were separated and before concepts exists. If you have gripes with Yhwach's tiering, then make a CRT about it. Nothing you have here is a solid debunk.

Uh, I don't think it's me who has to make the CRT, I'm saying this because that's LITERALLY what he's tiered at?
"3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction"
Literally on his profile, the Low 2-C is only possibly, the fact it's only possibly makes me a tad dubious of it. If you think it should be flat out, then you make a CRT for it, because I don't gotta do shit in regards to this.

And until further feats and statements, these same "generalizations" apply to WoU If you don't like it then make another CRT that revises the way the wiki treats AE limitations.

Or maybe stop pretending everything is the same when it never is and ignoring and twisting what WoU's actual abstraction to somehow be tied to the universe's existence when his foe is creating the biggest calamity ever seen to sustain WoU after the fact
Like use your head for a second, this isn't even complex, unironically how his powers work, Yhwach would unironically be better off killing and stopping EVERYTHING ELSE so a Calamity could never happen again then waiting it out then making a giant Calamity to **** everything at once.
Hell by your logic every Abstract has Uni range because the limitation says they do too, it goes both ways, just use your head based on how they actually work.

For this one, i'll just echo out everything that I have mentioned in this post for the nth time.

Same, parroting something that isn't even applicable here isn't an actual argument mate.

Also noticed how you failed to even talk about the examples I gave, I'll take that to mean you have no issue and agree with that.

Anyway, if a Calamity is made to end the world and WoU straight up can't die while a Calamity exists, he'd survive just fine. Going back and forth like this isn't gonna change anything, you keep saying he's confined to that specific universe and I keep saying he's more bound to Calamity in general and as long as it's happening within a uni distance of him, he'd live, obviously the universe ending is a Calamity happening within that range and the new world having Calamity would sustain him all the same.
Also Yhwach's ED is literally listed as 3-A, only possibly low 2-C on his profile so there's still that issue to be taken care of.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually here's a question, why does Yhwach even have tier 3/2 ED yet only tier 5 durability

 

[speedster352]

Because I'm not? Doesn't take a genius to figure out a example listed isn't a catch all thing. I read it, I understand what it's saying, I also understand that greays exists and should probably think about things for a second or two before deciding if it's applicable.



Except the fact you keep going on about Abstraction range being universal in locale. Literally range. Don't be semantic with me, it's literally what the limitation is talking about.



Because the Calamity still exists
If the Calamity exists, let alone never went away, he too will still exist, this is like, literally how his powers work?


Would this be a bad time to mention other pages have limitation sections and are meant as a guideline in most cases and not standard defaults?
Better yet, stop clinging to a EXAMPLE of a limitation and thinking it works like that every time. Of course if you destroy the thing he embodies he'll go away, but like, what if the thing embodied wasn't completely destroyed Really makes you think. If Yhwach doesn't get rid of the very thing he must get rid of, it won't be doing anything.

>"Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he."

Yeah, he does, that's how Eternity works, but it ain't how like, Kracko works for example. I'm glad this has now become an Eternity match.



And what if time never went away? He'd still be around, he'd never have gone away, and Eternity is an odd case because his abstraction is explicitly bound to that universe's time. WoU isn't the same, he isn't bound to that universe's calamity, he's bound to Calamity within a universal range. There is a difference. It's not that Calamity is bound to the universe, it's the Calamity exists all throughout the universe, it's not like time where time is a direct facet of the universe, it just so happens Calamity exists everywhere. There is a crucial crux of your argument you're failing to understand and that's your example is about a character who's directly tied to his universe's existence. It has nothing to do with how we the wiki treat something, because if Calamity actually was tied to the explicitly same universe you'd actually be correct, but that isn't what it is, it's you not grasping that your example isn't as all encompassing as you think it is, this whole argument is dumb as ****, it relies on something working for WoU a certain way when it doesn't.



Yeah, so range.
As for feats and statements, I'd love to but that would require it working that way you're implying it does in order for there to be feats on the contrary . Tbh the existence of Love Train should be sufficient enough imo.



Or, perhaps, that isn't the case being he's bound to Calamity and Yhwach isn't getting rid of Calamity but just making more? How hard is this to comprehend? You keep going on a tangent about how "well he's only bound to that universe, not this or that", when that isn't even how it works for him, he's bound to Calamity, WoU isn't bound to the universe, nor is Calamity bound to the universe. As long as Calamity exists within a universal range of him, given you're getting anal about that, he will continue to exist, the fact one universe went away means nothing if Calamity as a concept still exists after the universe ends and while it's ending, because WoU's abstraction was never bound to the universe to begin with. If Yhwach gets rid of the universe but by doing so creates a long lasting Calamity that lasts between both worlds, WoU literally is incapable of dying while that process is on going.
This isn't complex. This isn't even a limitation because you're acting like Calamity is bound to something it isn't. WoU's scale or whatever the hell you wanna call it could be as small as five feet for all it matters, if a Calamity exists within that threshold of him, he too, will exist, so when Yhwach blows up a universe or what not, and there's still a Calamity, why the **** do you think he's gonna drop dead?

Yeah, it's wrong because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what his Type 8 is even reliant on.



Feats and statements detailing a thing that isn't even a factor in how WoU works
Like what, you want me to say something like how Calamity exists throughout the whole JoJo multiverse or some shit? It isn't like the flow is a new concept, it was introduced in Part 7 and even retroactively applies to Part 1-6, hell Love Train actively uses the logic chain of the world in its abilities and that shit has Multiversal+ range. Calamity as a concept most certainly exists beyond the confines of one universe if that's what you're asking me.
But yet you keep going on about how WoU is somehow confined to the universe he's in, he isn't bound to the universe, he's bound to the Calamity, the Calamity exists within a universe, but the Calamity isn't bound to it the same way something like space is. If the world vanished but a Calamity was ongoing, he would still function because the thing he's an abstract of is still within his range and thus his Type 8 Immortality kicks in and he can not die. Hell you're so caught up on the abstraction part of things you're ignoring the Type 8 aspect of it.



Except MIH explicitly births a whole new timeline and the old space-time ceases to exist, it's a reset in name only, the raws explain what MIH does plain as day. And it is the same, or well, the end result is the same, old universe gone, new space-time takes its place.



Yeah I did, ignoring his AP justification blows, and it doesn't say what you think it says.



"3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction"
I'm seeing a possibly Low 2-C. What I said remains factually true, it's not even a flat out thing, if it was, there would be no possibly, it'd be flat out. If it's only 3-A, your whole argument is utterly pointless because he wouldn't even be destroying the confines of the universe WoU is in, he'd just be destroying what's in it, not the actual space-time continuum.

>Calm down.

The most obnoxious thing one can do is assume how one's feeling based on internet text lad.



Cool.



Depends on the Abstract, depends on a lot of shit actually. WoU's Abstraction isn't bound to the universe, but it does have universal range. If D4C popped out and moved him to a new universe, WoU wouldn't drop dead because he was removed from his old universe and put in a new one, he'd be fine because Calamity still exists in that universe so his Type 8 kicks in. If Yhwach destroyed the universe, got rid of all calamity, then did nothing ever again and didn't make a new world and assuming this ED is actually the low 2-C high end and not the 3-A end, it could work, but the "doesn't do anything ever again" or "doesnt make a new world" part is the issue.



Lad, it's less ignoring and more being able to pick up on the fact not everything is black and white. I could list a million things that wouldn't fall under that. And I say this doubly so in that if a new world develops in the same place the old world was destroyed, WoU's range would kick in regardless.
Like come on, if Yhwach ends the universe by making a Calamity that extends till a new world is born, WoU literally can't die in that time



I mean yeah, obviously, because it's a Calamity and the very thing that makes it so he can not die is literally happening. This is effectively like trying to kill a dude who will never die as long as there's explosions by killing him with a ******* explosion.



My dude, you realize that's an example of a limitation, it's not saying all Abstracts have that exact limitation nor is it automatically applied to literally everyone, because that's dumb, you need to look at the character themselves and draw conclusions based on what we know of how they work. If WoU can't die if there's Calamity and some mustached dude proceeded to create a Calamity, why in the hell would he die? He wouldn't.

I stand by this.


Uh, I don't think it's me who has to make the CRT, I'm saying this because that's LITERALLY what he's tiered at?
"3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction"
Literally on his profile, the Low 2-C is only possibly, the fact it's only possibly makes me a tad dubious of it. If you think it should be flat out, then you make a CRT for it, because I don't gotta do shit in regards to this.



Or maybe stop pretending everything is the same when it never is and ignoring and twisting what WoU's actual abstraction to somehow be tied to the universe's existence when his foe is creating the biggest calamity ever seen to sustain WoU after the fact
Like use your head for a second, this isn't even complex, unironically how his powers work, Yhwach would unironically be better off killing and stopping EVERYTHING ELSE so a Calamity could never happen again then waiting it out then making a giant Calamity to **** everything at once.
Hell by your logic every Abstract has Uni range because the limitation says they do too, it goes both ways, just use your head based on how they actually work.



Same, parroting something that isn't even applicable here isn't an actual argument mate.

Also noticed how you failed to even talk about the examples I gave, I'll take that to mean you have no issue and agree with that.

Anyway, if a Calamity is made to end the world and WoU straight up can't die while a Calamity exists, he'd survive just fine. Going back and forth like this isn't gonna change anything, you keep saying he's confined to that specific universe and I keep saying he's more bound to Calamity in general and as long as it's happening within a uni distance of him, he'd live, obviously the universe ending is a Calamity happening within that range and the new world having Calamity would sustain him all the same.
Also Yhwach's ED is literally listed as 3-A, only possibly low 2-C on his profile so there's still that issue to be taken care of.

Would EE from Yama's bankai work?

 

[Chariot190]

Would it EE Calamity?

That's literally all that needs to be done here, make it so Calamity, the concept of "bad things" no longer exists, as such, his Type 8 won't kick in. From there you could hit him once and he'd drop dead, he's only like 8-C physically at best.

But blowing up the universe ain't it chief, that's a huge Calamity, it would literally sustain him, And if the new world has Calamity too? Well all you did was waste time.

 

[Arcker123]

Actually here's a question, why does Yhwach even have tier 3/2 ED yet only tier 5 durability

Cause the ED doesn’t scale to his stats. This is how ED works.

 

[Chariot190]

Well yeah, but how would he survive it is what I mean? Can he just like, survive a universal collapse by himself or...? Like wouldn't he have to actually SURVIVE it too?

 

[speedster352]

Well yeah, but how would he survive it is what I mean? Can he just like, survive a universal collapse by himself or...? Like wouldn't he have to actually SURVIVE it too?

Yhwach has low goldy regen and intnagibilty even to soul reapers and self sustanece 1

 

[Chariot190]

But is that what's actually happening anyhow? Is that how he planned to survive it or...?
Because like, low-godly or not, if he ***** the universe, why would his soul survive that? Especially given doesn't he **** with the very place souls go in context?
Idk man I'm gonna need a rundown.

Probably won't change anything but still.

 

[theultimate5105]

Yhwachs ED works in the Bleach Universe and nowhere else

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Because I'm not? Doesn't take a genius to figure out a example listed isn't a catch all thing. I read it, I understand what it's saying, I also understand that greays exists and should probably think about things for a second or two before deciding if it's applicable.

Yeah it isn't a catch all thing, but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to WoU.

Except the fact you keep going on about Abstraction range being universal in locale. Literally range. Don't be semantic with me, it's literally what the limitation is talking about.

Prove it's not universal? that's literally what i've been going on and on about.

And until further notice that you can't prove that it's not only universal in scale, it applies.

Because the Calamity still exists
If the Calamity exists, let alone never went away, he too will still exist, this is like, literally how his powers work?

Stop cherry picking. "made anew" is not the same as "never went away'.

Would this be a bad time to mention other pages have limitation sections and are meant as a guideline in most cases and not standard defaults?
Better yet, stop clinging to a EXAMPLE of a limitation and thinking it works like that every time. Of course if you destroy the thing he embodies he'll go away, but like, what if the thing embodied wasn't completely destroyed Really makes you think. If Yhwach doesn't get rid of the very thing he must get rid of, it won't be doing anything.

>"Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he."

Yeah, he does, that's how Eternity works, but it ain't how like, Kracko works for example. I'm glad this has now become an Eternity match

Except that it literally applies here until further notice of WoU's feats lmao.

Ironic how you say it's meant as a guideline but you ignore it in WoU's case.

You're not proving that it doesn't work on WoU, you're just saying that it isn't applicable to anything which is a no shit moment lol

Prove it doesn't apply to him by debunking the fact that his embodiment of Calamity isn't only universal in scale.

If it is, it gets wiped when Yhwach makes the realms collapse, simple as that.

And what if time never went away? He'd still be around, he'd never have gone away, and Eternity is an odd case because his abstraction is explicitly bound to that universe's time. WoU isn't the same, he isn't bound to that universe's calamity, he's bound to Calamity within a universal range. There is a difference. It's not that Calamity is bound to the universe, it's the Calamity exists all throughout the universe, it's not like time where time is a direct facet of the universe, it just so happens Calamity exists everywhere. There is a crucial crux of your argument you're failing to understand and that's your example is about a character who's directly tied to his universe's existence. It has nothing to do with how we the wiki treat something, because if Calamity actually was tied to the explicitly same universe you'd actually be correct, but that isn't what it is, it's you not grasping that your example isn't as all encompassing as you think it is, this whole argument is dumb as ****, it relies on something working for WoU a certain way when it doesn't.

See?? LMAO YOU LITERALLY JUST ADMITTED IT.

"WoU isn't the same, he isn't bound to that universe's calamity, he's bound to Calamity within a universal range."

You said he is bound to the calamity within a universal range. If the universe is destroyed, he has no abstraction to cling to and the feat he needs is him existing beyond the bounds of a universal range this is literally the intention of me bringing up eternity as an example and you literally just admitted it. literally this is what i've been saying and idk how you can't get it.

Yeah dude, it's not all encompassing no shit. But you are literally not proving at all that it doesn't apply to WoU. Lmao.

Yeah, so range.
As for feats and statements, I'd love to but that would require it working that way you're implying it does in order for there to be feats on the contrary . Tbh the existence of Love Train should be sufficient enough imo.

How far =/= How grand/big/encompassing

Ah so the feats don't exist? so all this time it is just you NLF'ing WoU by thinking he can survive beyond his localized abstraction. gotcha.

Or, perhaps, that isn't the case being he's bound to Calamity and Yhwach isn't getting rid of Calamity but just making more? How hard is this to comprehend? You keep going on a tangent about how "well he's only bound to that universe, not this or that", when that isn't even how it works for him, he's bound to Calamity, WoU isn't bound to the universe, nor is Calamity bound to the universe. As long as Calamity exists within a universal range of him, given you're getting anal about that, he will continue to exist, the fact one universe went away means nothing if Calamity as a concept still exists after the universe ends and while it's ending, because WoU's abstraction was never bound to the universe to begin with. If Yhwach gets rid of the universe but by doing so creates a long lasting Calamity that lasts between both worlds, WoU literally is incapable of dying while that process is on going.
This isn't complex. This isn't even a limitation because you're acting like Calamity is bound to something it isn't. WoU's scale or whatever the hell you wanna call it could be as small as five feet for all it matters, if a Calamity exists within that threshold of him, he too, will exist, so when Yhwach blows up a universe or what not, and there's still a Calamity, why the **** do you think he's gonna drop dead?

Stop contradicting yourself lol

Literally a few paragraphs ago you said "WoU isn't the same, he isn't bound to that universe's calamity, he's bound to Calamity within a universal range." That is honestly everything you needed to say to prove that I am right here. But here you are twisting it again to say he isn't bound to the universe.

"As long as Calamity exists within a universal range of him, given you're getting anal about that, he will continue to exist"

Prove it. Feats. Until further notice then that is NLF and does not count. simple as that dude.

You literally keep saying that calamity exists in another universe and so on but you are not at all bringing up feats to support that WoU can cling to an abstraction of calamity bigger than the universe.

You are literally NLF'ing here and when I bring up the NLF you say "That's how it works", that's not how things work in this forum mate. If you can't support your claim without bringing in feats to prove the scale of his abstraction then it is moot. Simple as that.

Feats and statements detailing a thing that isn't even a factor in how WoU works
Like what, you want me to say something like how Calamity exists throughout the whole JoJo multiverse or some shit? It isn't like the flow is a new concept, it was introduced in Part 7 and even retroactively applies to Part 1-6, hell Love Train actively uses the logic chain of the world in its abilities and that shit has Multiversal+ range. Calamity as a concept most certainly exists beyond the confines of one universe if that's what you're asking me.
But yet you keep going on about how WoU is somehow confined to the universe he's in, he isn't bound to the universe, he's bound to the Calamity, the Calamity exists within a universe, but the Calamity isn't bound to it the same way something like space is. If the world vanished but a Calamity was ongoing, he would still function because the thing he's an abstract of is still within his range and thus his Type 8 Immortality kicks in and he can not die. Hell you're so caught up on the abstraction part of things you're ignoring the Type 8 aspect of it.

"Feats and statements detailing a thing that isn't even a factor in how WoU works" is such a fancy way of you claiming NLF. Just say that your NLF'ing here.

Your proving a scale, but not proving that WoU can appliy/cling to that scale. That's what i'm looking for here but your not proving it. I know how big JJBA is mate, what i'm looking for is WoU explicitly seen embodying the concept of calamity in that other neighboring universe.

Type 8 also requires feats of the same nature I am talking about lol. It's reliant immortality and the scale varies and until further notice, that scale is universal and claiming otherwise without proof of the scale it embodies is NLF.

Except MIH explicitly births a whole new timeline and the old space-time ceases to exist, it's a reset in name only, the raws explain what MIH does plain as day. And it is the same, or well, the end result is the same, old universe gone, new space-time takes its place.

Ok? This still isn't the same as how Yhwach does it nor in the same scale as it.

"3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction"
I'm seeing a possibly Low 2-C. What I said remains factually true, it's not even a flat out thing, if it was, there would be no possibly, it'd be flat out. If it's only 3-A, your whole argument is utterly pointless because he wouldn't even be destroying the confines of the universe WoU is in, he'd just be destroying what's in it, not the actual space-time continuum.

Through the Soul King's Almighty powers, the original world that existed millions of years before his death was split into three new ones and the cycle of life and death was created. Had Yhwach been victorious in the Quincy Blood war, he would have merged them back together with the same power. So no, it isn't just bound to destroying what is in it only.

The reason why it's possibly low 2-C is because it doesn't apply to Yhwach's raw power, he achieves Low 2-C via hax and a chain of events (in this case, the disturbance of the flow of souls) He made garganta collapse and this in turn causes the destruction of the Hueco Mundo and the world of the living. It literally says "via Environmental Destruction" in his profile lmao.

Depends on the Abstract, depends on a lot of shit actually. WoU's Abstraction isn't bound to the universe, but it does have universal range. If D4C popped out and moved him to a new universe, WoU wouldn't drop dead because he was removed from his old universe and put in a new one, he'd be fine because Calamity still exists in that universe so his Type 8 kicks in. If Yhwach destroyed the universe, got rid of all calamity, then did nothing ever again and didn't make a new world and assuming this ED is actually the low 2-C high end and not the 3-A end, it could work, but the "doesn't do anything ever again" or "doesnt make a new world" part is the issue.

That's my problem here, you're talking about the hypotheticals WoU can apply to with D4C, yet you have not brought any instance of WoU interacting with him. That's not concrete enough to rely on and that does not to apply to the circumstances here.

I can easily just say that the world WoU was bound to was not destroyed so he continues to exist. He's only in a different universe. I am talking about full on destruction here, not travelling to another realm.

Lad, it's less ignoring and more being able to pick up on the fact not everything is black and white. I could list a million things that wouldn't fall under that. And I say this doubly so in that if a new world develops in the same place the old world was destroyed, WoU's range would kick in regardless.
Like come on, if Yhwach ends the universe by making a Calamity that extends till a new world is born, WoU literally can't die in that time

Yeah, not everything is black and white. but you're not exactly doing a good job distinguishing WoU from both the "black" and the "white" here.

Nuh-uh, not just develop. it would be destroyed first before a new one develops. And for his range to kick in, once again, FEATS and actually tangible STATEMENTS that prove it.

Don't leave out the fact that the universe would have to be destroyed first by Yhwach before a new one takes place. A point in that process exists where the universe would be full on destroyed before it is merged back again to a state before the three realms was created.

I mean yeah, obviously, because it's a Calamity and the very thing that makes it so he can not die is literally happening. This is effectively like trying to kill a dude who will never die as long as there's explosions by killing him with a ******* explosion.

Yes and a point will happen where the process stops and the universe is destroyed before it is merged back. By that point, WoU needs the scale to back up his existence.

Using your comparison as an example, that same dude would die from an explosion that spans the universe because he has no feats of him resisting anything beyond the scale shown in his series...

My dude, you realize that's an example of a limitation, it's not saying all Abstracts have that exact limitation nor is it automatically applied to literally everyone, because that's dumb, you need to look at the character themselves and draw conclusions based on what we know of how they work. If WoU can't die if there's Calamity and some mustached dude proceeded to create a Calamity, why in the hell would he die? He wouldn't.

I stand by this.

I know it's an example of a limitation but you're not doing a good job here proving it doesn't apply to WoU.

The reason why he would die is because you're not bringing up any tangible evidence that his scale goes beyond the local universe he exists in. Your evidence is literally just bringing up the scale of JJBA but you get an immediate F proving how WoU can apply to it.

D4C is not at all applicable here since D4C is not destroying the universe and nor does MIH. This is the issue.

Uh, I don't think it's me who has to make the CRT, I'm saying this because that's LITERALLY what he's tiered at?
"3-A, possibly Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction"
Literally on his profile, the Low 2-C is only possibly, the fact it's only possibly makes me a tad dubious of it. If you think it should be flat out, then you make a CRT for it, because I don't gotta do shit in regards to this.

I said that because you have doubts about Yhwach causing the collapse of the realms. The reason why he's tiered like that is because it's not raw power, he does it via hax and a chain of events.

Or maybe stop pretending everything is the same when it never is and ignoring and twisting what WoU's actual abstraction to somehow be tied to the universe's existence when his foe is creating the biggest calamity ever seen to sustain WoU after the fact
Like use your head for a second, this isn't even complex, unironically how his powers work, Yhwach would unironically be better off killing and stopping EVERYTHING ELSE so a Calamity could never happen again then waiting it out then making a giant Calamity to **** everything at once.
Hell by your logic every Abstract has Uni range because the limitation says they do too, it goes both ways, just use your head based on how they actually work.

I never once said I think every character's abstraction is the same. What i'm saying is that you need to provide tangible evidence that it doesn't apply to WoU.

Stop twisting my words, what i'm saying is every abstract being has a uni in range UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE based on the feats they have.

"just use your head based on how they actually work" So basically just NLF it, huh?

Same, parroting something that isn't even applicable here isn't an actual argument mate.

Ironic how you claim I brought up things that isn't even applicable when you did a less than stellar job justifying how it isn't applicable to WoU.

Anyway, if a Calamity is made to end the world and WoU straight up can't die while a Calamity exists, he'd survive just fine. Going back and forth like this isn't gonna change anything, you keep saying he's confined to that specific universe and I keep saying he's more bound to Calamity in general and as long as it's happening within a uni distance of him, he'd live, obviously the universe ending is a Calamity happening within that range and the new world having Calamity would sustain him all the same.
Also Yhwach's ED is literally listed as 3-A, only possibly low 2-C on his profile so there's still that issue to be taken care of.

he'd survive just fine if he has feats of surviving it or statements that mention his embodiment of calamity exists beyond a universal scale.

D4C and MIH hypotheticals does not do anything here because what they do is not the same as what Yhwach does nor has WoU interacted with those two so it is more dubious than Yhwach's tiering even.

Yhwach's ED is like that because it's not raw power and he needs to rely on hax and a chain of events to make it happen.

Actually here's a question, why does Yhwach even have tier 3/2 ED yet only tier 5 durability

Because the universal tiering does not apply to Yhwach's physicals, only hax.

Well yeah, but how would he survive it is what I mean? Can he just like, survive a universal collapse by himself or...? Like wouldn't he have to actually SURVIVE it too?

Yhwach is a non-corporeal mass of energy that exists beyond a single realm and he has hax that can keep him from dying.

Yhwachs ED works in the Bleach Universe and nowhere else

He can do it the same way he did it to Garganta. And CFYOW proves that Yhwach was gonna use the same power Soul King used to merge back the realms.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Anyways, I have said everything that I want to say. I'll take the concession here so as to not derail the thread

I still vote inconclusive since it is better than having this closed due to haxstomp. For once please let's have a Yhwach match that ACTUALLY concludes rather than just getting closed.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Anyways, I have said everything that I want to say. I'll take the concession here so as to not derail the thread

I still vote inconclusive since it is better than having this closed due to haxstomp. For once please let's have a Yhwach match that ACTUALLY concludes rather than just getting closed.

And yes this is me taking the L here, but I just said it fancily since idk other wikia folks do it also so

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

And yes this is me taking the L here, but I just said it fancily since idk other wikia folks do it also so

You were already making L misinterpretations and shit. Idk how its so hard to understand what he's saying (Chariot)
Just pls re-read, its getting annoying to see you go back and forth constantly, whilst failing to understand something that's been reiterated multiple times

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

You were already making L misinterpretations and shit. Idk how its so hard to understand what he's saying (Chariot)
Just pls re-read, its getting annoying to see you go back and forth constantly, whilst failing to understand something that's been reiterated multiple times

No need to chime in the discussion with nothing substantial and you weren't even present when we were having it lmao.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

No need to chime in the discussion with nothing substantial and you weren't even present when we were having it lmao.

Nah, im just straight up telling you to open your eyes, re-read what he's said throughout this thread between you and him. Idk how its that hard to understand my dude.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Nah, im just straight up telling you to open your eyes, re-read what he's said throughout this thread between you and him. Idk how its that hard to understand my dude.

Not you acting condescending and snotty over fictional debates LMAO

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Not you acting condescending and snotty over fictional debates LMAO

Stay as a brick wall then. Because thats what you are doing in this debate. Acting like a brickwall, incapable of understanding something thats been said over and over again to you. which isnt even complex or that difficult dude. That isnt me being condescending, I'm simply pointing out that, its getting annoying to see you misunderstand something as simple as "Isnt bounded to a universe. Can exist as long as something bad exists". Yet you continue on going around in circles (Which also drags Chariot alongside that circle, making ya both go back and forth) with that AE as if it was some gospel meant to answer and solve every question.
When in fact, no, it doesnt in this case. My dude, im not trying to be condescending here, your just not understanding what he's even saying. Idk how, but you are. So, pls, just for the sake of everybody else (for those that do think the same as I do- In the fact that you havent even understood as to what Chariot has been trying to tell you time and time again.) just re-read

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Stay as a brick wall then. Because thats what you are doing in this debate. Acting like a brickwall, incapable of understanding something thats been said over and over again to you. which isnt even complex or that difficult dude. That isnt me being condescending, I'm simply pointing out that, its getting annoying to see you misunderstand something as simple as "Isnt bounded to a universe. Can exist as long as something bad exists". Yet you continue on going around in circles (Which also drags Chariot alongside that circle, making ya both go back and forth) with that AE as if it was some gospel meant to answer and solve every question.
When in fact, no, it doesnt in this case. My dude, im not trying to be condescending here, your just not understanding what he's even saying. Idk how, but you are. So, pls, just for the sake of everybody else (for those that do think the same as I do- In the fact that you havent even understood as to what Chariot has been trying to tell you time and time again.) just re-read

This entire post is basically,

"You don't see things the way I do, you're wrong" and on top of this, you take this angle at a fictional battleboarding forum....wow

"Not being condescending"

Be a brick wall then

Idk how you can't understand what he's saying

im just straight up telling you to open your eyes

You were already making L misinterpretations and shit.

gasp what's this? Someone sees things differently from the way I see it AT A DISCUSSION FORUM? surprised pikachu face UNTHINKABLE lol

If the only substantial thing you have to say is being condescending and telling people to "read" instead of voting or adding some other arguments, you're not helping anything lol in fact, your being less substantial than what you claim I am since at least I was willing to engage in a discussion. You aren't....

And i'm still gasping over the fact that you decide to take this stance at a topic....in a battleboard of all things....

 

[Livinmeme]

Is amazing how much a 10 year old death series (yeah i know about the one shot) create so much anger

 

[Shey]

What he's saying is Wonder of U is an Abstract tied to the Concept "Calamity" - when bad things happen, if Ywach somehow manages to pull off a 3-A destruction which afaik is only applicabke with Bleach's Cosmology, he would still need to get Eradicate the Concept of Calamity to get rid of Wonder of U and if he doesn't Wonder of U will continue to exist, post universe destruction or not

P.s: The page didn't show messages from some hours ago till I sent this comment, so my text is reffering to an old argument, oof

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

This entire post is basically,

"You don't see things the way I do, you're wrong" and on top of this, you take this angle at a fictional battleboarding forum....wow

"Not being condescending"









gasp what's this? Someone sees things differently from the way I see it AT A DISCUSSION FORUM? surprised pikachu face UNTHINKABLE lol

If the only substantial thing you have to say is being condescending and telling people to "read" instead of voting or adding some other arguments, you're not helping anything lol in fact, your being less substantial than what you claim I am since at least I was willing to engage in a discussion. You aren't....

And i'm still gasping over the fact that you decide to take this stance at a topic....in a battleboard of all things....

Nah, the entire post is basically "You still dont understand. Which makes this more annoying. Sigh"
Idk why your calling me condescending, when you yourself were coming off as condescending earlier mate.

"you dont see things the way I do"??? So does me telling you to re-read the entire conversation between you and Chariot, simply because maybe, just maybe, it'd make this debate between you two have some actual progress, instead of going back and forth, due to you still not getting it yet, come off as shocking to you? o k. Cool but uh, cut off with that stage performer act please. I'm not interested in it.

Telling somebody to stay as a brick wall is condescending

Thats literally not it. That's just me saying "Ok then, stay as you are with no progress in this debate due to you not willing to make actual progress in this debate." Bruh.

Idk how you can't understand what he's saying

Yeah my dude, what about it? Is there something wrong with me reacting like that in regards to something like this? Something thats been explained MULTIPLE times to you, even simplified too. Why does me being confused = to being condescending?

Open your eyes

Yeah, I explained to you bluntly, that you should re-read, since this isnt really going anywhere when one side does not understand the other.

You already made L claims

Because one side was dragging it too long, and you were still not getting something thats been explained multiple times bro. Stop pulling up shit out of your ass to gaslight me dude.

"your not helping" Im trying to help you out in order to stop wasting time with this circling argument. You're refusing my help, or, again, you seem to be misunderstanding things, and taking what I said as to me being "condescending" which wasnt my intent dude, lol.
I am engaging in a discussion with you though, wdym? Though, this short-intended discussion meant to tell you to perhaps give what Chariot said a re-read so you dont misunderstand him, and understand as to what he's even talking about. Because your clearly not getting it dude.
"this stance" Said stance is telling you to stop being dumb, use your mind again this time, (but carefully) and re-read what this other dude said. Why? Because I can see that your failing to understand what he said dude? Despite it being said multiple times to you, INFRONT of you. Do you want me to be that blunt?

What he's saying is Wonder of U is an Abstract tied to the Concept "Calamity" - when bad things happen, if Ywach somehow manages to pull off a 3-A destruction which afaik is only applicabke with Bleach's Cosmology, he would still need to get Eradicate the Concept of Calamity to get rid of Wonder of U and if he doesn't Wonder of U will continue to exist, post universe destruction or not

P.s: The page didn't show messages from some hours ago till I sent this comment, so my text is reffering to an old argument, oof

Also, read what Shey said. Basically the same thing I said to you earlier, more or less, but you decided to ignore it, and pile up more shit out of nowhere, saying that I'm being condescending..

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Nah, the entire post is basically "You still dont understand. Which makes this more annoying. Sigh"
Idk why your calling me condescending, when you yourself were coming off as condescending earlier mate.

"you dont see things the way I do"??? So does me telling you to re-read the entire conversation between you and Chariot, simply because maybe, just maybe, it'd make this debate between you two have some actual progress, instead of going back and forth, due to you still not getting it yet, come off as shocking to you? o k. Cool but uh, cut off with that stage performer act please. I'm not interested in it.

Thats literally not it. That's just me saying "Ok then, stay as you are with no progress in this debate due to you not willing to make actual progress in this debate." Bruh.


Yeah my dude, what about it? Is there something wrong with me reacting like that in regards to something like this? Something thats been explained MULTIPLE times to you, even simplified too. Why does me being confused = to being condescending?



Yeah, I explained to you bluntly, that you should re-read, since this isnt really going anywhere when one side does not understand the other.


Because one side was dragging it too long, and you were still not getting something thats been explained multiple times bro. Stop pulling up shit out of your ass to gaslight me dude.

"your not helping" Im trying to help you out in order to stop wasting time with this circling argument. You're refusing my help, or, again, you seem to be misunderstanding things, and taking what I said as to me being "condescending" which wasnt my intent dude, lol.
I am engaging in a discussion with you though, wdym? Though, this short-intended discussion meant to tell you to perhaps give what Chariot said a re-read so you dont misunderstand him, and understand as to what he's even talking about. Because your clearly not getting it dude.
"this stance" Said stance is telling you to stop being dumb, use your mind again this time, (but carefully) and re-read what this other dude said. Why? Because I can see that your failing to understand what he said dude? Despite it being said multiple times to you, INFRONT of you. Do you want me to be that blunt?


Also, read what Shey said. Basically the same thing I said to you earlier, more or less, but you decided to ignore it, and pile up more shit out of nowhere, saying that I'm being condescending..

Jeez the lack of self awareness from this dude lmao. imagine going this turnt over a match that'll never get concluded anyways lmao

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

What he's saying is Wonder of U is an Abstract tied to the Concept "Calamity" - when bad things happen, if Ywach somehow manages to pull off a 3-A destruction which afaik is only applicabke with Bleach's Cosmology, he would still need to get Eradicate the Concept of Calamity to get rid of Wonder of U and if he doesn't Wonder of U will continue to exist, post universe destruction or not

P.s: The page didn't show messages from some hours ago till I sent this comment, so my text is reffering to an old argument, oof

And chariot at all didn't do a good job explaining how the limitations that vsb put on AE is something that doesn't apply to WoU.

Vsb has restrictions on the scale of embodiment that Abstact beings are able to embody and until further notice from feats and statements in the series, it is assumed universal and when the universe is destroyed, so is this abstract being.

I've literally been asking Chariot for feats that prove the scale of abstraction that WoU embodies going beyond universal and the best thing he has is hypotheticals of D4C and MIH that WoU hasn't interacted with which isn't at all applicable to the methods that Yhwach is gonna do here and this can easily be interpreted as NLF. He just wanted me to assume things based on what was given instead of going by anything solid. Heck, he even told me that WoU doesn't need those feats at one point like...what?

This is why I kept bringing up Eternity as an example here.

When the universe gets destroyed, time still flows since the concept in the larger scale still exists. But by vsb standards, that wouldn't cut it since he would need feats of embodying time in such a grand scale above universal and accepting it like this otherwise is NLF.

Even if the universe is destroyed, Time still exists as a concept. But that doesn't mean Eternity who embodies time can still survive it as per the limitations.

The best thing chariot has on this is "It doesn't apply to every AE" like yeah ofc it doesn't, but he's not bringing up any tangible proof that it doesn't apply to WoU.

Heck, even his range supports what I'm saying here,

Range: Standard melee range for Tooru. Standard melee range, Extended melee range with cane, has a manifestation and effective range of at least several kilometers (Has appeared at opposite ends of Morioh at the same time[4]), likely much higher (Is the Calamity itself, a force that permeates through the world[6]). Endless Calamity has been implied to have drawn in weather like typhoons from the sea[16][13] and has shown to be able to effect things over 10,000 meters away[4], likely far higher[13] (Is a natural law that permeates throughout the world and is implied to be able to draw in Calamities from across Earth).

Nothing in his profile supports his embodiment of Calamity going beyond universal and for him to do exactly what you say (which is surviving the destruction of the universe via the calamity created from the destruction), He needs actual feats of embodying calamity BEYOND a local scale (universal) since the universe which his abstraction is tied to is gone.

At some point, Yhwach's destruction is gonna stop and the calamity stops, at that point nothing exists. then he merges things back into the Original World.

For him to do what ya'll are saying, WoU needs to be solid 2-C, 2-B, 2-A or Low 1-C in scale lmao.

And going by this logic idk why somehow erasing concepts is gonna get rid of WoU when erasing concepts also require calamity thus, calamity still takes place in the world and he has type 8........ Like the entire thing is soo NLF here and idk why ya'll are ok with that.

Ya'll can just do what u want here, I said my piece and idk why ya'll have to act like obnoxious douches about it. Idk why this other dude decided to come in and start fronting all of a sudden. Talking a lot of stuff for someone who just echoes things for him.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What he's saying is Wonder of U is an Abstract tied to the Concept "Calamity" - when bad things happen, if Ywach somehow manages to pull off a 3-A destruction which afaik is only applicabke with Bleach's Cosmology, he would still need to get Eradicate the Concept of Calamity to get rid of Wonder of U and if he doesn't Wonder of U will continue to exist, post universe destruction or not

P.s: The page didn't show messages from some hours ago till I sent this comment, so my text is reffering to an old argument, oof

He can interact & absorb abstract types of concepts. Yhwach completely absorbed gerald who was abstract concepts of fear. His profile is going to update it few days. But miracle is the form given by desires do people.

Also yhwach has Yamamoto Bankai and is there any feats Wonder of U coming back when gets erased from existence?

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Jeez the lack of self awareness from this dude lmao. imagine going this turnt over a match that'll never get concluded anyways lmao

Pot meet kettle. Your abysmally low basic reading comprehension level is quite saddening. It'll never be concluded because of you.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

I said my piece and idk why ya'll have to act like obnoxious douches about it. Idk why this other dude decided to come in and start fronting all of a sudden. Talking a lot of stuff for someone who just echoes things for him.

Why do you think that me and the others are being obnoxious? Where tf does that even come from? Your thinking too deep into it dude, lol. Just stop it

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Pot meet kettle. Your abysmally low basic reading comprehension level is quite saddening. It'll never be concluded because of you.

And you say you aren't being condescending lmao. You're a riot.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

And you say you aren't being condescending lmao. You're a riot.

Why are you acting as if you didnt do anything yourself? Yikes, so shameless!
Nah, cut with that shit dude.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Why are you acting as if you didnt do anything yourself? Yikes, so shameless!

Name one instance.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Is amazing how much a 10 year old death series (yeah i know about the one shot) create so much anger

Yeah dude, totally.

Tbh this is the fun part of vsb bleach lmao it's not like one of those boring matches where everyone unanimously agrees on something.