Multiple RWBY Calcs

[SilentLyfe]

So this is something that should be discussed. Apparently there are multiple calcs for RWBY that have been accepted. As such, it should be determined which to use.

First Calc

The first calc happens at the end of Volume 7 when Oscar uses The Long Memory to blast through the bottom of Atlas. Here are the two calcs:

KLOL506's (8-B+)
SilentLyfe's (7-C)

Second Calc

The second calc involves calculating the KE of Monstra, the giant Grimm whale that Salem showed up with in Volume 8. Here are the two calcs:

SilentLyfe's (7-B)
Mapl3Sy4up's (High 7-C)

Now quick disclaimer, I'm not a calc guy. I'm terrible at it, which is why my blogs are merely re-blogging a calc someone else did from another site. As such, I will not be arguing which calc to use mathematically, I'll leave that to the calc members. Instead, I'll argue from a logical standpoint and how its consistent in the show.

For the Oscar feat, I'm fine with which ever is chosen. However, for the Monstra calc, it would cause issues in scaling if Mapl3Sy4up's was used. Currently Oz scales to Salem, who created Monstra using her magic and as such is 7-B. If Mapl3Sy4up's is used, although Salem would still be 7-B due to scaling to the Tempest instead, Oz would be unable to scale to Salem even though he is equal to her as shown in The Lost Fable when they had their battle. The reason for that is by doing so, the Maidens would then be Low 7-B, thus being stronger than The Long Memory, which is centuries stored energy and doesn't make sense at all from the show's perspective.

However, the current calc solves all those issues. The Long Memory is 7-B due to one shotting Monstra. As such, the Maidens are no longer stronger than it. Also, this means that the storm calc for Amber is no longer an outlier. Like the reasoning above, the reason why it was no longer used was because it made the Maidens stronger than The Long Memory. However, with the current Monstra calc, it can instead be used as a supporting feat.

Anyways, I'm about to head to work for my overnight shift soon so I probably won't be able to respond until tomorrow. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Edit 1: After some deliberation between me and Acer, the two of us came to a compromise regarding the Monstra calc and had a new one made. Also as the first calc has more calc members in favour of KLOL’s, that one should be used and have such removed it from the OP.

Compromise: 10.81 MT (7-B)

Tallying votes:

Calc 1
KLOL506's: @Aguywhodoesthings @AbaddonTheDisappointment @KLOL506
SilentLyfe's: @Spinoirr @Acer__
Neutral/Unsure: @DarkDragonMedeus @FantaRin_The_First @Dalesean027

Calc 2
SilentLyfe's:
Mapl3Sy4up's:
Compromise: @DarkDragonMedeus @AbaddonTheDisappointment @FantaRin_The_First @Dalesean027 @Spinoirr @Aguywhodoesthings
Neutral/Unsure:

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I prefer KLOL's version of the 1st calc and Mapl3Sy4up's version for the 2nd calc

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I am neutral in the first, although, 8-B+ is a bit weird since alot of the RWBY cast is rated 8-A, but meh, however, I do prefer Lyfe's calc for the second thingy, tbh. Mostly from the standpoint that it makes things more sense narratively, in my eyes.

 

[Spinoirr]

Also it doesn't assume Grimm are made of oil, despite the fact we see them be solid things just formed from Dark pools of Grimm from dark magic

So using flesh is better as they are solid in mass

 

[Spinoirr]

i should probably point out that Oscar's feat was also done with magic specifically he was explicity shown to have used Long Memory to perform the feat

so the tier 7 yield for it makes some sense over the 8-B yield

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Aight as the person who did the 2nd calc on the 2nd discussion, I’ll Weight in (wait no, this is my responsibility or smth, wet noodle confidence sit in the corner for a minute).

For the first calc, the more reliable in my eyes is the 7-C one. Not only because it’s higher (I leik big numbers), but because of the way it is measured. Kirito made sure that they used a shape which made sense (the hole is cylindrical) but because steel was used for the entire thing. We’ve been shown that Atlas has been built and changed from the inside out, so assuming that it‘s still made of rock is odd when the rock shown on the outside is differently colored from the “rock” on the inside which is so similar colored to the steel and metal used in the vault, that it’s most likely metal (I may be wrong on the color part, my eyes are 20/400 at best, so my vision on specifics is shit, it’s why i need a Zoom feature lol).

For the second one (outside of wanting to be right, I really don’t care), I’d prefer my own. Firstly using the sperm whales mass as the base it’s good for the calculation because we know Grimm don’t have the same density as their animal counter parts (or mythical ig for the sea feilong), so it’s usage is unreliable and shaky at best. Secondly, we see Monstra’s path in the clip, 25:45-25:46 shows the path we see him moving from the clip we measure. So using a diagonal measurement is much better for the speed than whatever method was used in the first? (I genuinely don’t know lol) and to support this we can see that Monstra doesn’t get any closer or farther away from the camera, meaning he is just traveling diagonally at this point in time.
For my own usage of Oil, I choose a liquid which matched the Grimm pits best and also could still float on water. This is due to the fact that all Grimm are made of a similar substance, so unlike real life counter parts we can’t assume they have a different muscle density or smth, so the substance needs to float on water (aka be lower than 997 kg/m3), and the average amount for oil fits it perfectly because well, it’s a black liquid which is typically slow to drip (why it seems to stick to the Grimm for a few seconds), that can float on water (deep water horizon can tell ya that), and is similar to in (most) properties to the Grimm when in it’s liquid/solid state and not turning to f***ing dust, along with being similar to the Grimm pools the Grimm are solid versions of. Thirdly, narrative purpose. Ozpin’s long memory has been shown to outright tear through Monstra, but it’s own calc has been rated at high 7-C if I remember correctly. Salem has also been shown to be hit by weaker characters (she has 8-A durability despite being 7-B lol) so Prime Ozpin being high 7-C makes sense, especially because we assume their equal when, well Ozpin is winded while Salem is still taking a casual stroll when we see their fight in series. Salem is a power house magic wise so it makes sense no “mere mortal” (don’t think the gods gave Oz some extra magic) can come close to it. However her physical defense is still weak, so it’s not like it would be enough of a stomp to immediately send oz into depression mode (man needs some therapy). Fourth Thickness. I measured out the thickness of Monstra when compared to his radius (could have chose one from the side but that felt disingenuous) so I personally believe that my calculated mass is more accurate just based off of the fact I have an accurate section of monstra calculated and proper accommodation made for the rooms and THRONE AREA inside of him.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

I do have some issue with the tempest calc, but it’s not much, just the amount of them there (we don’t have an actual shot of all of them but they do emerge from it if I’m not stupid) so we can guess how many are across the line, and the j amount, 3000 is for the type of storms which will cause everlasting damage, 1000 is the amount which should be used for Salem’s storm, because while it is big and dangerous, it’s just a storm which no chance of essentially turning Atlas into another dead zone, it’s still got snow and everything. Also Kirito used the length of atlas but used the width in the picture measured (we can actually see the rock formations as the longer side). Overall shouldn’t lower it too much

 

[SilentLyfe]

Thirdly, narrative purpose. Ozpin’s long memory has been shown to outright tear through Monstra, but it’s own calc has been rated at high 7-C if I remember correctly. Salem has also been shown to be hit by weaker characters (she has 8-A durability despite being 7-B lol) so Prime Ozpin being high 7-C makes sense, especially because we assume their equal when, well Ozpin is winded while Salem is still taking a casual stroll when we see their fight in series. Salem is a power house magic wise so it makes sense no “mere mortal” (don’t think the gods gave Oz some extra magic) can come close to it. However her physical defense is still weak, so it’s not like it would be enough of a stomp to immediately send oz into depression mode (man needs some therapy).

Won't comment on the math, but for the narrative, The Long Memory was not a thing for Prime Ozpin, he didn't make it till later. Even then, he made it as a way to compensate for the magic he gave away. That's why its only in his Post-Maidens key. So its not connected to his magic. Also, in their fight although Oz was winded, he had killed Salem during their fight presumably multiple times considering the length they fought, which we see her regenerating from so of course she would appear fine compared to him since she becomes fully healed. Finally, why do you assume that Salem is somehow different from Oz in terms of magic? Yeah she might have gained control over Grimm following her dip in the pools, but besides that, its not like her magic is somehow greater than his. Both of them are from the first generation of humanity and both were given magic by the God of Darkness. This idea that Salem's magic is greater and that Oz's is just a "mere mortal" is unfounded. Especially considering he was a legendary hero in his first life. (Also yeah he needs some therapy. Give my boy a break).

Anyway. To reiterate my point, keeping the current calc makes much more sense narrative wise as it prevents any issues in the scaling chain. As stated before, if the other calc is used, Salem still remains at 7-B while Oz can no longer scale to Salem even though he's equal to her due to the Maidens becoming stronger than The Long Memory, which makes no sense. It also allows the storm calc for Amber to be used as a supporting feat instead of an outlier. Besides using all elements, the main thing Maidens are known for is creating storms. Amber did it, Raven did it, even Penny made one, albeit smaller since she was inside.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Also it doesn't assume Grimm are made of oil, despite the fact we see them be solid things just formed from Dark pools of Grimm from dark magic

So using flesh is better as they are solid in mass

This is another point. Although Grimm are made from different material, that doesn't mean we can say they don't have the same mass as their real life animal counterparts which Grimm are supposed to mimic. For example, we see that the Megoilath has considerable weight to them, as Harriet struggles to keep their foot from crushing them, as well as the fact that Penny was also struggling to push it back with her beam.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Won't comment on the math, but for the narrative, The Long Memory was not a thing for Prime Ozpin, he didn't make it till later. Even then, he made it as a way to compensate for the magic he gave away. That's why its only in his Post-Maidens key. So its not connected to his magic. Also, in their fight although Oz was winded, he had killed Salem during their fight presumably multiple times considering the length they fought, which we see her regenerating from so of course she would appear fine compared to him since she becomes fully healed. Finally, why do you assume that Salem is somehow different from Oz in terms of magic? Yeah she might have gained control over Grimm following her dip in the pools, but besides that, its not like her magic is somehow greater than his. Both of them are from the first generation of humanity and both were given magic by the God of Darkness. This idea that Salem's magic is greater and that Oz's is just a "mere mortal" is unfounded. Especially considering he was a legendary hero in his first life. (Also yeah he needs some therapy. Give my boy a break.)

The “mere mortal” is in quotes for that reason. Salems dip in the oozy jakoozie not only gave her control of Grimm, but a host of other abilities, unfounded strength, more durability (separate from her immortality) so it’s not hard to say that she gained more magic. Salem doesn’t have aura likely all other combatants in series, so her just taking the hits and it taking multiple to get through her wouldn’t happen if she Was still average in durability terms. Oz has his magic yes, but it’s his portion of it, not something he essentially yoinked from the GoD’s control (lmao dragon ball acronym works here). He was a legendary hero but don’t you put that only on magic power, he was proficient in multiple forms of combat with loads of experience, he earned that title, wasn’t just magic. (anyways I’m thinking we should get him and Oscar one in Vacuo, it’s still functioning as a civilization)
Anyways narrativly wasn’t talking about prime, was talking about https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ShadowWhoWalks/RWBY:_Ozpin's_Long_Memory_explosion_and_Ironwood's_bomb
Ozpin’s explosion and Ironwood’s bomb (low end) are both put at high 7-C, which are the assumed ends, Monstra being 7-B directly takes away from the fact that ironwood’s bomb or the long memory itself could do S***, because it’s highest value is either a 6th of Monstra’s KE or not even a 100th according to your calc.

Anyway. To reiterate my point, keeping the current calc makes much more sense narrative wise as it prevents any issues in the scaling chain. As stated before, if the other calc is used, Salem still remains at 7-B while Oz can no longer scale to Salem even though he's equal to her due to the Maidens becoming stronger than The Long Memory, which makes no sense. It also allows the storm calc for Amber to be used as a supporting feat instead of an outlier. Besides using all elements, the main thing Maidens are known for is creating storms. Amber did it, Raven did it, even Penny made one, albeit smaller since she was inside.

Raven’s was calc’d at High 7-C if I’m correct. Penny’s wouldn’t be near that. Along with that the sky was already overcast when Amber summoned lightning, it’s less likely that Amber summoned the storm and more she pulled electrons down from it in the form of lightning (which begs the question, how the ****, does the MHS calc say the distance was only 2.3 meters or so when we see it come from the sky.).

This is another point. Although Grimm are made from different material, that doesn't mean we can say they don't have the same mass as their real life animal counterparts which Grimm are supposed to mimic. For example, we see that the Megoilath has considerable weight to them, as Harriet struggles to keep their foot from crushing them, as well as the fact that Penny was also struggling to push it back with her beam.

oil would work for that as well in terms of mass (it also contains ice and far more bone to account for in terms of how much is there in size proportionally, both of which are over 900 kg/m3), also because the beams and Harriet are both scaling to 8-A, when the Megoliath is a VERY strong Grimm, which is likely much stronger than the Queen Lander (just given threat level and required aid), so it also being massively above the other calc as well isn’t weird to me atleast.
Also because we scale them the class M and struggling to lift an elephant who’s mass reaches class K even at that size is weird.

 

[SilentLyfe]

The “mere mortal” is in quotes for that reason. Salems dip in the oozy jakoozie not only gave her control of Grimm, but a host of other abilities, unfounded strength, more durability (separate from her immortality) so it’s not hard to say that she gained more magic. Salem doesn’t have aura likely all other combatants in series, so her just taking the hits and it taking multiple to get through her wouldn’t happen if she Was still average in durability terms. Oz has his magic yes, but it’s his portion of it, not something he essentially yoinked from the GoD’s control (lmao dragon ball acronym works here). He was a legendary hero but don’t you put that only on magic power, he was proficient in multiple forms of combat with loads of experience, he earned that title, wasn’t just magic. (anyways I’m thinking we should get him and Oscar one in Vacuo, it’s still functioning as a civilization)
Anyways narrativly wasn’t talking about prime, was talking about https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ShadowWhoWalks/RWBY:_Ozpin's_Long_Memory_explosion_and_Ironwood's_bomb
Ozpin’s explosion and Ironwood’s bomb (low end) are both put at high 7-C, which are the assumed ends, Monstra being 7-B directly takes away from the fact that ironwood’s bomb or the long memory itself could do S***, because it’s highest value is either a 6th of Monstra’s KE or not even a 100th according to your calc.

Unfortunately, there's no proof that the dip gave her anything else but control and creation of Grimm using magic. As we saw in Volume 8, the magic she does is the same as her pre-Grimm self. Unless you are able to show a scene or statement that she somehow got more powerful after that then it can't be used. And even then, it still wouldn't matter since Oz was still equal to her anyway so he still scales. For the Atlas Bomb, not only do we not know that it could have destroyed Monstra, as it never got the chance to do so, but even then he was planning on detonating it from the inside since the outside could not be penetrated at all from his military. It makes sense that it would still work if detonated from the inside since usually durability for things is lower there. The Long Memory on the other hand happened on the outside, as they were standing on its wing on the side. Anyway, with the current calc, that one wouldn't be used anyway as The Long Memory simply scales to Monstra instead.

Raven’s was calc’d at High 7-C if I’m correct. Penny’s wouldn’t be near that. Along with that the sky was already overcast when Amber summoned lightning, it’s less likely that Amber summoned the storm and more she pulled electrons down from it in the form of lightning (which begs the question, how the ****, does the MHS calc say the distance was only 2.3 meters or so when we see it come from the sky.).

oil would work for that as well in terms of mass (it also contains ice and far more bone to account for in terms of how much is there in size proportionally, both of which are over 900 kg/m3), also because the beams and Harriet are both scaling to 8-A, when the Megoliath is a VERY strong Grimm, which is likely much stronger than the Queen Lander (just given threat level and required aid), so it also being massively above the other calc as well isn’t weird to me atleast.
Also because we scale them the class M and struggling to lift an elephant who’s mass doesn’t reach class K even at that level is weird.

Yeah I know that Penny's wouldn't be near that. I just used it as an example of how all Maidens can make storms, which is why the current calc works better otherwise they all become outliers. Also even if Raven's storm is different, we would still take the highest one that being Amber's since the Maiden's powers are all equal to each other being 1/5th of Ozma's.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

we would still take the highest one that being Amber's since the Maiden's powers are all equal to each other being 1/5th of Ozma's.

You not see the part where I said the sky was already overcast? It would require a whole lot less effort to do that, because the hard part is mostly done

 

[SilentLyfe]

You not see the part where I said the sky was already overcast? It would require a whole lot less effort to do that, because the hard part is mostly done

I saw. As I said I’m not a calc guy so I don’t get the math behind it. Im simply bringing it up because it was accepted by a calc member before and used before it was deemed an outlier for the reasons stated above. Besides, the storm calc again is only a supporting thing. The main part is how the current Monstra calc is consistent with both the show and the scaling.

Anyways, I don’t know if you have anymore arguments besides the main ones you first brought up. But if not, do you want to wait for more people to read it and give their input? Cause right now it seems like we’re just going in circles.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

I saw. As I said I’m not a calc guy so I don’t get the math behind it. Im simply bringing it up because it was accepted by a calc member before and used before it was deemed an outlier for the reasons stated above. Besides, the storm calc again is only a supporting thing. The main part is how the current Monstra calc is consistent with both the show and the scaling.

Anyways, I don’t know if you have anymore arguments besides the main ones you first brought up. But if not, do you want to wait for more people to read it and give their input? Cause right now it seems like we’re just going in circles.

Yeah that’s fine
Anyways going for your speed caps next, your current MHS feat is probably the only one in series, I will calc all the others I need to

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

@Dalesean027 is here (likes both my post and your OP) but I need like an actual comment to say what’s happening

 

[Dalesean027]

I can't comment on the math of the calcs or whether it's better to use oil or flesh since I'm not knowledgeable enough to discern that and for the fact that both of you have said some valid points so I'd atill say there's likely someone better who can give their opinions since I don't want to make a call i know I'm not knowledgeable enough to make.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I can't comment on the math of the calcs or whether it's better to use oil or flesh since I'm not knowledgeable enough to discern that and for the fact that both of you have said some valid points so I'd atill say there's likely someone better who can give their opinions since I don't want to make a call i know I'm not knowledgeable enough to make.

Massive respect for you saying that, my dude. Just had to say this.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I feel like KLOL's is probably better of the first two calcs. For the second two, I'm neutral as to whether or not to use oil or scale off of sperm whales

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

I feel like KLOL's is probably better of the first two calcs. For the second two, I'm neutral as to whether or not to use oil or scale off of sperm whales

I think I can come to a compromise.
I’ll use my speed calculated, but I’ll take the weight of the whale (expanded now) that they found and divide it by 12.333x (cause as we see on my calc, that’s how many times smaller the thickness is to the actual radius.)
It might still keep the results we want here, I want something more accurate and they want a result closer to 7-B. =- )

 

[Popted2]

i agree to what is accepted

 

[Spinoirr]

Also it doesn't assume Grimm are made of oil, despite the fact we see them be solid things just formed from Dark pools of Grimm from dark magic

So using flesh is better as they are solid in mass

Heck Grimm even have bone and are showed all red inside with no blood but smoke when they "bleed" also they can feel pain too, also you need to include the gravity crystals on the whale too and use the mass of crystals for that

So I think flesh works better

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Heck Grimm even have bone and are showed all red inside with no blood but smoke when they "bleed" also they can feel pain too, also you need to include the gravity crystals on the whale too and use the mass of crystals for that

So I think flesh works better

Yeah, I’ll just go divide the first mass (before being halved) by 12.333 (my measured thickness, and see how that works. Is that good?

 

[SilentLyfe]

Yeah, I’ll just go divide the first mass (before being halved) by 12.333 (my measured thickness, and see how that works. Is that good?

I guess. Though will have to see if it will still cause any scaling issues or if a lower value is found. Otherwise we should probably stick with the two in OP.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

I guess. Though will have to see if it will still cause any scaling issues or if a lower value is found. Otherwise we should probably stick with the two in OP.

gotcha, I'll give one with you speed and one with mine

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

I guess. Though will have to see if it will still cause any scaling issues or if a lower value is found. Otherwise we should probably stick with the two in OP.

Nevermind just did it, could have theoretically just divided the end result by 12.333, but anyways it's 5.4 MT with yours. the maidens with 1/5th of the tempest power should be around 3.2.
Anyways, assuming you guys are cool with me adjusting the value of the storm calc to fit with CAPE standards (3000 is used for the end of the world shit, the nothing will be left shit, not how Atlas could have survived had cinder not used the relic), they will scale even lower.
Again again, I know this is redundant (I mentioned it above) but isn't mercury and emeralds currently used MHS feat Aim dodging (Cause they see Amber wind it up, and the area it's coming from)?
there is the other one where the two are hopping around like maniacs, probably would result in HHS+/MHS

 

[SilentLyfe]

Honestly just put in a blog so I can read it later. Kinda on my phone right now sorry.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Honestly just put in a blog so I can read it later. Kinda on my phone right now sorry.

Nah, not your fault, I normally use my iPad so I know how buggy and awkward it is

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Honestly just put in a blog so I can read it later. Kinda on my phone right now sorry.

Also because the calc would be 5.4 MT, we can upscale the long memory to 6.3 MT, meaning baseline 7-B and nearly double the maidens

 

[SilentLyfe]

Also because the calc would be 5.4 MT, we can upscale the long memory to 6.3 MT, meaning baseline 7-B and nearly double the maidens

So Oz and Salem 16MT from Tempest, Maidens 3.2 due to 1/5th, Monstra 5.4, and The Long Memory upscale to 6.3 due to one shotting it?

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

So Oz and Salem 16MT from Tempest, Maidens 3.2 due to 1/5th, Monstra 5.4, and The Long Memory upscale to 6.3 due to one shotting it?

Yup

 

[SilentLyfe]

Yup

Well even though I’m still a bit iffy on the Maidens being that close AP wise to The Long Memory, if this is the compromise I guess I’m okay with it. Do you plan on making the blog now or later?

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Well even though I’m still a bit iffy on the Maidens being that close AP wise to The Long Memory, if this is the compromise I guess I’m okay with it. Do you plan on making the blog now or later?

Later, I'm doing other things and only got time for quick messages

 

[SilentLyfe]

Later, I'm doing other things and only got time for quick messages

Yeah that’s ok. I’m about to sleep to get ready for my overnight shift. Take care.

 

[KLOL506]

For the first calc, I'd go with my version, the ship is closer to the hole and is in general just more properly visible.

Regarding the rest of the calcs, I am neutral.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hmm

 

[Spinoirr]

The whale calc seems to the main problem here

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

The whale calc seems to the main problem here

Yeah but as you saw, silent lyfe and I came to a compromise =- )

 

[SilentLyfe]

Yeah but as you saw, silent lyfe and I came to a compromise =- )

Speaking of which, how's the blog coming along?

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Speaking of which, how's the blog coming along?

I am, right about to go do it (Because remember all I really need to do is grab your blog, add the part of my blog of measuring the thickness, and we're done), I am also stopping myself from trying to Alter the storm calc (Literally my only problem is that 3000 j/kg is for end of the world storms, like the ones you'd see causing nationwide destruction, while Salem's was strong, it fit more into the 1000 j/kg category).