Mukuro vs Reimu Hakurei

[The_real_cal_howard]

Speed equalized before I forget. Reimu has FN. Battle of dimensions.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What is the mindset? It seems like a who strikes first deal here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I think I'm just going to separate it into two rounds. One bloodlusted and the other in-character.

And by the way, just in case people get the wrong idea, this is low 6-B Reimu. I forgot to specify.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bloodlusted, Reimu goes FN and GG.

In character? I don't know much about Kazuma's character, but flight, teleport spam and other such abilities should still let her survive against his attacks for some time. She only really need one strike to put him down anyway.

 

[DontTalk]

I go with reimu, because of a high firepower with high spread and because she has the advantage of just being able to fly 50 meters above Kazumas head, outside of his swords range.

In speed equal the mid distance fighting style of touhou characters makes it hard for Kazuma to use his sword either way. Basically he will just get outranged.

(Edit: And I stil am not covinced that FN should be assumed to grant immunity to spacial manipulation stuff, but not relevant IMO)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Should I have used Mukuro instead? It seems to make it fairer, and she has the same powerset. I wanted to see how FN did against a dimensional manipulator, but Kuwabara's outmatched by far it seems.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Wasn't Yukari unable to touch Reimu?

Well anyway keep the battle on the ground but Reimu can still use telespam. No idea who Mukuro really is so I can't comment on him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. Changed it to make it fairer.

 

[DontTalk]

Wasn't Yukari unable to touch Reimu?

I don't think such a thing was ever shown or stated. Though many people assume that, because one description of Fantasy nature states "If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her using any method."

Which is not only a description I personally think is to unreliable to give her resistance to every ability in the game, but which is also contradicted since Zun stated in Symposium of Post-mysticism that that the watatsuki sisters are unbeatable for anyone in gensokyo and you can not really have 2 different characters in a verse be unbeatable at the same time (except they just can not damage each other at all, but I would doubt that option).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He didn't say unbeatable, just "Untouchable", whatever it's supposed to mean

Also even then it's more or less regarded as an ultimate ability so if Yukari would attack her that would have been stated somewhere, wouldn't it?

 

[DontTalk]

Given that he in that interview explained that he can not put the watatsuki sisters in the games because then the player would require to be able to defeat them it is quite clear that untouchable means unbeatable.

so if Yukari would attack her that would have been stated somewhere, wouldn't it?

If yukari would have attacked her with border manipulation and fantasy nature would have blocked the attacks then we would have a much clearer picture of the extent of the ability. But most likely yukari sadly never did.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I would mention that both the girls in-games and when they appeared in fights were limited by Spell Card, so using that as an argument to limit hax doesn't really work.

Even then you can't just assume a concrete limit for their hax simply on just that. We have no clue how they would deal with such hax, of if they would have to deal with it period.

No but Yukari uses this attack pretty much all the time even in Spell Cards fights. Considering Yukari was in the game where said statement was made, why would they not mention Yukari being able to beat her? Since that would be a pretty big thing.

 

[DontTalk]

In which game did toyohime or yorihime appear?


"their hax"

Whose hax are you talking about now?


"No but Yukari uses this attack"

Which attack?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It could also mean that untouchable applies to both and that if they ever fought, Reimu would only 'survive' and is untouchable too. Untouchable could still apply yo things such as stalemates. Of course we never see her try to use Fantasy Heaven but considering Yorihime had Reimu stay over for a bit longer to show who else could be manipulating deities on the moon, well it shows that she might not be that puny compared to Yorihime. Then again Reimu is floating out of Gensokyo when she does that

Why would Yukari- well Saikou just said it. If she was on another game or never interacted with Reimu then I would have agreed. But that's not the case here.

 

[LTB2000]

My vote goes to mukuro since her 3d cutting is more effective than kurabara.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

My bad I misconstructed my sentence af. I meant that their only appearence when they fought was under the spell card rules. And that their only possible game appearences would be under the same rules.

All of Gensokyo's hax. You keep claiming that since the Sisters are above the main cast they should have counters against their hax/their hax have limits. But IIRC, not even once has their hax been defeated by them. Toyohime managed to hold Yukari's strength back, but it was never stated how she could defend against her hax. Yorihime managed to defeat both Remilia and Sakuya. But she never showed resistence to time hax nor to fate manipulation, just managed to use Sakuya's knives and Remi's weaknessess against them.

Yes it's obvious their hax have limits, but they are unknown.

****, again I just messed up by message. Yukari uses her Boundary Manipulation all the time, even in spell card fights. If she was able to casually defeat Reimu this way, this would most likely have been stated, since the sentence about how no one can defeat her was in a game when she was introduced since a long time and was a playable character.

Not only that, but the Sisters didn't appear until after this ability was introduced.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Donttalk I'm more than sure that Saikou is referring to Marisa and Yukari appearing in the same game.

Not to mention that second question is easy to answer. Yukari crosses a lot of distance and goes to the outside world through a barrier. Her range is large considering she has access to dark matter, or was t anti matter? Either way... That type of long distance attack

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

On mobile edit nvm my first msg That said I'm sure that Touhou gensokyo chars can never beat orihime and toyohime, but do remember thy didnt use the powers yet. Thy only fought in danmaku battle. No showcase of the scale of haxx yet

 

[DontTalk]

Well, for one thing ZUN generally doesn't care much about who is more powerful than whom in real fights.

And the fact that "no one could beat her using any method." is also the type of statement that is easily a hyperbole is also there.

In that particular game yukari would always be reimus partner, if you necessarily want to do the "appeared in the game" argument.


For the stalemate part: In that case you would assume just both go into invincibility state at the same time forever. I am sceptical about that.

Edit: And in the end it's not just the Watatsuki sisters. Hecatia is also stated to be ridicoulusly above everyone else. Basically you are making Reimu a god tier in the verse if she is story wise not supposed to be on that level.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It doesn't change the fact that Time and Space hax borders on common in Gensokyo. Again if Reimu wasn't immune to that there won't be statement about the fact that no one can beat her. Simple Intangability exists too. If Sakuya or Yukari could attack her it would have been more like "It makes her hard to hit but some can". Or at least anything hinting that Reimu's ability isn't seen as the most OP ones through all of the verse'.

And? Yukari still fought and lost to Reimu before. Because in this game she is an ally shouldn't mean she is excluded from the "everyone". Doesn't explain Sakuya either.

Reimu could just go FN and Yorihime can't hit her, but Reimu can't do much in return either.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Yet he claims Lunarians > Gensokyians huh. That's not really the case in most of Gensokyo. Otherwise he wouldn't have said that either. And frankly instead of Gensokyo being weak this just makes me think Lunarians are stronger than we think

So basically Yukari gave Reimu the win everytime or never went serious on her? That's not really believable if she wants Reimu to get stronger and just lets her win. Her actions always have an indirect thing, well not always but most of the time. In any case this doesn't mean Yukari ever fought Reimy without ever going serious

My intention is to not make Reimu a God tier, although most of the time main characters can become powerful that way.... In any case what we're trying to say is that Reimu in Fantasy Heaven doesn't mean she could get hit by Yorihime. And I don't intend to mean that. I intend to say that they can go toe on toe before Reimu gives up due to her stamina. Her best case of stamina is the week of summoning deities after all

 

[DontTalk]

So to summarize:

Fantasy nature grants complete immunity against

• spacetime manipulation
• fate manipulation
• the ability to destroy anything
• Death manipulation
• Border manipulation (including all the implications of that)
• Density manipulation

because it is said to be unbeatable by anyone with any method, but without sufficient explanation of the mechanism to justify that.

Welp, I could point out that there was another case where Zun literally stated that it would work on everyone without exception and then there were exceptions, but know what?

Technically I count myself to the supporters of the franchise, so why do I have to be the one to play be critical? I can be happy with FN to be taken as protection against everything, so if you guys want to do that then I will just do the same thing as I did for most accelerator threads in the last few month: Make sure the facts are laid out on the page and let people in vs threads decide for themself what they wish to believe.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, DT. You're the only person who seems to know a lot about Touhou and be critical. I haven't seen anyone else fit that bill yet. It won't be as interesting if you let it be.

Pleeeeeease, buddy? (Cal uses puppy dog eyes)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The sheer fact that Reimu becomes intangabile means that she is already immune to Flandre's and Suika's ability.

Yeah Exceptions because that someone had protection against that one kind of attacks specially. And these beings are pretty much outsiders with unique and extremely powerful abilities. Sakuya's abilities is just one amongs many others. And it's apparently not that rare of an ability even then.

 

[DontTalk]

When it comes to the pages I will make sure they state what are the facts given, but the FN discussions are usually just like the Vector shield discussions. I just am not really iinterested in leading them just for vs threads anymore. This and this is to my knowledge everything that was ever stated on the topic of fantasy nature (except I forgot something), so everyone can make themself a complete picture of the avaiable facts in 2 minutes.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Huh? Zun said that for Yuyuko? Don't recall, unless you're referring to the description of it, but then again that exception is also the one that's directly referenced in comparison to this topic. Unlike Fantasy Nature that's contradicted in a face to face value. The situation might change in the future but right now it's not that impossible to believe

Edit - Being Critical is good though. How else would we get rid of flaws?

 

[Andykhang]

HmHAHAHAHAHA .... Man, some character are just way too unlucky and unknown to faced Reimu huh? Even the thread are on Reimu side

 

[Andykhang]

When it comes to the pages I will make sure they state what are the facts given, but the FN discussions are usually just like the Vector shield discussions. I just am not really iinterested in leading them just for vs threads anymore. This and this is to my knowledge everything that was ever stated on the topic of fantasy nature (except I forgot something), so everyone can make themself a complete picture of the avaiable facts in 2 minutes.

You forgot this tidbit as well. (Even I don't notice that):

"Her ability is being able to fly, that is, being weightless. The gravity of Earth, any level of stress, and threats of power all mean nothing to her. Both her mind and body float in the sky of fantasy, a mysterious shrine maide. However powerful the opponent is, that means nothing in her presence. As she evens out whatever status one has, she tends to attract anyone regardless of species, Humanor youkai."

Imperishable Night, manual.


edit: This thread seem to go off-road long enough though.

Edit 2: I supported Reimu. It's take more than dimensional cutting to harm Reimu's FN.

 

[Andykhang]

bump

 

[Andykhang]

double bump

 

[Andykhang]

triple bump

 

[Andykhang]

quadtruple bump