MUI Goku vs Broly.

[PridedWaif]

It's because Broly has better adaptive feats? Did you not consider that?

What better adaptive feats? He didn't close the gap between him and Blue Gogeta at a rapid pace. One could argue LB Jiren had a bigger adaptive feat against UI Goku more so than Broly. Broly only was getting large quick adaptive feats at the beginning before he was SSJ and FPSSJ. He still got increases of power against Blue Gogeta as FPSSJ, but it wasn't anywhere near prior increases. It was at a slower rate and going by novel, it's made out as if Gogeta was going to kill him.

Not too mention it's at least stated for UI the increase is drastic especially for speed and all of his attacks continuously become sharper. Additionally, Broly isn't a martial artist like Jiren, so he wouldn't be able to figure out ways for UI to work against Goku or even hit him. I think the arguments here should be can Broly last against UI Goku and can UI Goku finish it quickly. Seeing as UI Goku has all intentions of winning and putting the fight to an end while in said form. I don't see how Broly would win against a fresh 100% UI Goku.

(This is also taking into account if you believe UI Goku > Broly. I personally have UI Goku > Blue Gogeta > UBW Jiren > FPSSJ Broly or Blue Gogeta > UI Goku > FPSSJ Broly > UBW Jiren. I think it can go either way since there's arguments for either. It's not exactly 100% clear. It should by DB mechanics be Broly > Jiren. However, Super doesn't follow that entirely, it's a special case. It could possibly be even Blue Gogeta > UI Goku=FPSSJ Broly > UBW Jiren or UI Goku > Blue Gogeta > UBW Jiren>=FPSSJ Broly/FPSSJ Broly > UBW Jiren. Heck I can even see UI Goku > UBW Jiren >= Blue Gogeta > FPSSJ Broly. Just depends.)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What better adaptive feats? He didn't close the gap between him and Blue Gogeta at a rapid pace.

He literally went from matching SS Gogeta to forcing Gogeta into Blue, and forced Gogeta to use his true power at the end of their fight. To add further, SS Gogeta would be as strong as UIS3 Goku and Base Jiren based on basic scaling (UIS is at least 40x, SS is 50x, therefore Gogeta is comparable to UIS3 Goku and Base Jiren) with Blue being hundreds of times that, easily.

There is also the little part where Broly went from being stomped by Base Vegeta to pushing Vegeta into SSG within minutes of his first fight, or Broly instantly copying Goku's God Bind technique, or going from struggling to overpower SSG Goku's technique to being comparable to SSB Goku within minutes (A 50x increase).

Broly was constantly growing dozens to hundreds of times stronger as he adapted, and you want to compare that to UI Goku? Here is a better question, what are UI Goku's feats? He curbstomped Base Jiren and matched LB Jiren, just to grow stronger and overpower LB Jiren. That isn't even remotely impressive, when you consider a 2x gap basically makes you an unstoppable monster in Dragon Ball.

So the best scaling feat for UI Goku is growing less than 2x more powerful, compared to a monster that grows dozens to hundreds of times stronger within mere moments of adaptation.

 

[Omegas03]

@PridedWalf

You can't have MUI Goku > Gogeta Blue and UBW Jiren >= FPSSJ Broly at the same time considering UBW Jiren and MUI Goku are roughly in the same ballpark, while SSB Gogeta stomped Broly.

It's better imo: Gogeta Blue > (either > or >=) MUI Goku/UBW Jiren >> FPSSJ Broly.

Or MUI Goku/UBW Jiren >= Gogeta Blue >>> Broly

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

MUI hasn't shown to multiply his power with sheer adaptive abilities like Broly can.

 

[PridedWaif]

@PridedWalf

You can't have MUI Goku > Gogeta Blue and UBW Jiren >= FPSSJ Broly at the same time considering UBW Jiren and MUI Goku are roughly in the same ballpark, while SSB Gogeta stomped Broly.

It's better imo: Gogeta Blue > (either > or >=) MUI Goku/UBW Jiren >> FPSSJ Broly.

Or MUI Goku/UBW Jiren >= Gogeta Blue >>> Broly

I can see it if someone were to put that as their scale. The difference would only be minute. Meaning the power difference wouldn't be much greater since Gogeta was going to use a full power attack wipe Broly off the face of the earth.

I personally think Blue Gogeta from Broly arc should be > UI ToP Goku. While a current Goku were to go UI he'd be greater, due to me personally believing UIO/UI has a higher boost than Fusion being stacked by blue. However, I do not shy away from even a ToP UI Goku might be > Blue Gogeta Broly Arc.

Though my personal view does not matter, we're going with what's more logical and reasonable.

 

[PridedWaif]

What better adaptive feats? He didn't close the gap between him and Blue Gogeta at a rapid pace.

He literally went from matching SS Gogeta to forcing Gogeta into Blue, and forced Gogeta to use his true power at the end of their fight. To add further, SS Gogeta would be as strong as UIS3 Goku and Base Jiren based on basic scaling (UIS is at least 40x, SS is 50x, therefore Gogeta is comparable to UIS3 Goku and Base Jiren) with Blue being hundreds of times that, easily.

There is also the little part where Broly went from being stomped by Base Vegeta to pushing Vegeta into SSG within minutes of his first fight, or Broly instantly copying Goku's God Bind technique, or going from struggling to overpower SSG Goku's technique to being comparable to SSB Goku within minutes (A 50x increase).

Broly was constantly growing dozens to hundreds of times stronger as he adapted, and you want to compare that to UI Goku? Here is a better question, what are UI Goku's feats? He curbstomped Base Jiren and matched LB Jiren, just to grow stronger and overpower LB Jiren. That isn't even remotely impressive, when you consider a 2x gap basically makes you an unstoppable monster in Dragon Ball.

So the best scaling feat for UI Goku is growing less than 2x more powerful, compared to a monster that grows dozens to hundreds of times stronger within mere moments of adaptation.

He only grew stronger than Base and ssj 1 Vegeta, before getting stomped by a held back SSG.

He needed Ikari to beat SSG and was losing to blue. His big boosts only occurred in Base and then stopped and continued with each form accordingly. He doesn't grow non stop cause he's adapting to the situation. He's releasing and adapting to his own potential of power more so than his opponents. This is stated several times in dialogue as well.

Goku coming from blue, which was getting stomped by a still suppressed Jiren to UIO putting him on equal grounds as Jiren, to surpassing him with UI is unknown. You can't just asspull a number for it. How much stronger he grew is stated to be drastic within the series itself closing the majestic gap instantly. Difference between the two is Goku won his fight and stayed stronger than Jiren and got another boost after getting angered.

Broly just kept getting knocked down and got wilder with no stability in his mind, while Goku over here gets sharper and have a clear head.

Where are you getting a SSJ Gogeta is = to UIO3 Goku and Jiren FP, when FPSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta since it's stated and shown Broly pushed Gogeta to blue By overpowering him in the dimension. Yet, he's only assumed to be probably stronger than Beerus. In fact, it's Broly's best hyped feat only being questionably stronger than Hakaishin Beerus. When Jiren has a lot of lore and promo supporting him to be > the Hakaishins prior to his UBW state.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

He needed Ikari to beat SSG and was losing to blue.

Wrath is just Great Ape used in human form. Broly would have only grown 10x stronger if it was just that.

His big boosts only occurred in Base and then stopped and continued with each form accordingly.

This only occurs when Broly is struggling to adapt to SSB Goku, and Frieza triggers Super Saiyan. In every other instance, Broly was constantly adapting at a rapid rate.

Goku coming from blue, which was getting stomped by a still suppressed Jiren to UIO putting him on equal grounds as Jiren, to surpassing him with UI is unknown. You can't just asspull a number for it.

Okay, and? You can't asspull a number for it either, all we know is that a 2x gap in Dragon Ball is enough to completely negate your opponent's power, this is stated in guidebooks and depicted in the show itself. Hell, usually you don't need anywhere near a 2x gap to curbstomp somebody else in DB.

How much stronger he grew is stated to be drastic within the series itself closing the majestic gap instantly.

Where?

Difference between the two is Goku won his fight and stayed stronger than Jiren and got another boost after getting angered.

What even is this logic? Goku winning against Jiren doesn't mean anything when you can't even argue the gap between them.

UI Goku curbstomped Base Jiren, they were roughly equal after Jiren broke his limits and then Goku rage boosted and surpassed Jiren.

Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched, until Broly triggered FPSS and was too powerful for Gogeta. Gogeta was forced to use Blue against Broly, and even then felt compelled to use his full power at the end of their fight.

SSB Gogeta >> SSG Gogeta >> SS3 Gogeta >> SS2 Gogeta >> SS Gogeta = SS Broly

The gap between SS and SS2 is at least 2x (based on Gohan claiming he only had 50% power and still resisted Super Perfect Cell), the gap between SS3 and SS2 is unknown but pretty huge and the gap between SSG and SS3 is depicted as huge.

We know SSB is 50x SSG, because SSB is Super Saiyan used with Super Saiyan God, so overall Gogeta grew hundreds of times stronger at a minimum, and still felt compelled to use full power against Broly towards the end.

In other words, Broly grew upwards to dozens of times more powerful against SS Gogeta, forcing Gogeta to skip to Blue and then Broly adapted enough to Blue that Gogeta had to use a Full Force Kamehameha to finish the fight.

Where are you getting a SSJ Gogeta is = to UIO3 Goku and Jiren FP,

The wiki considers UIS to be at least 40x Blue and Post-ToP Goku should be stronger than when he went UIS against Jiren.

Yet, he's only assumed to be probably stronger than Beerus. In fact, it's Broly's best hyped feat only being questionably stronger than Hakaishin Beerus. When Jiren has a lot of lore and promo supporting him to be > the Hakaishins prior to his UBW state.

You yourself used the manga to argue your points regarding scaling, so how about Beerus curbstomping and nearly killing several other GoDs by himself? The 'evidence' that Jiren is even remotely near Beerus in Base form is shaky at best, being based on some promo materials and Beerus losing an arm wrestling competition.

I'm noticing you have this tendency of arguing my points are invalid due to the numbers not being quantifiable, but then you seem to imply that Goku adapted even remotely close to Broly against Jiren despite having little to no evidence for your claim.

Fact of the matter is, we can identify and calculate how quickly Broly's power increased in a matter of minutes, we have barely anything for Goku. In fact, the only notable increase Goku displayed was when he went from UIS to UI and rage boosted in UI. Claiming Goku's adaptation is that great has the same basis as arguing going from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2 is evidence that Gohan can increase his power multiple times by adapting. It's effectively a form change, rather than adaptation.

 

[Darkfire890]

Gonna go broly

 

[PridedWaif]

I'm not about to retype that essay of rebuttals I just did. I quoted and replied to each section and then hit reply and nothing. Is there a limit to how much can be said in a quote reply? If so I'll just keep that in mind for next time.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Not really a limit but most people would rather you not have the reply quote in order to prevent reply chains from eating up the thread and making everything look nasty.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Going with incon.

Broly's advantages are his durability, stamina aided by bits of adaptation and increasing power. Goku's is speed, skill with MUI increasing his power and refining his movements & attacks. Goku's issue is trying to put Broly down before his time limit expires while Broly's issue is trying to even hit and effectively respond to Goku. Goku will get far more hits in while Broly tanks up and keep coming for him.

Honestly, both are in that nebulous realm possibly being stronger than Beerus. Their attributes also counteract each other. As such, I don't particulary feel safe calling it either way.

 

[Purgy]

How can this be inconclusive when one of the participators has a relatively short time limit and will be extremely weakened when said time limit runs out.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Because unlike in the ToP, where Goku was getting drained from entering UIO, having to basically take timeouts to try and recover stamina or recieve energy from allies and having to continue to fight on in spite of this, he'd be starting at 100% fresh with full stamina. In addition, his level of skill and speed (which are increasing as he uses UI) mean that he will get in a lot of hits.

 

[Purgy]

We have no idea how much Goku's stamina factored the time limit, and we can only base this battle on what we've seen. Meaning Goku has the exact same time limit he did when he fought Jiren.

 

[Omegas03]

What's the vote count?

Anyways I am still going for Goku, he did defeat a stronger foe in time so I don't see how he isn't beating Broly. And I assume Goku is well aware of the time limit so he's gonna do the same Gogeta did.

 

[PridedWaif]

Not really a limit but most people would rather you not have the reply quote in order to prevent reply chains from eating up the thread and making everything look nasty.

Ah ok, got it.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No one here has the AP advantage.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm not about to retype that essay of rebuttals I just did. I quoted and replied to each section and then hit reply and nothing. Is there a limit to how much can be said in a quote reply? If so I'll just keep that in mind for next time.

Yeah, I hate when that garbage happens. If you want to long-post, you need to make it a habit to always copy your post and then refresh the page and post it, if it happens.

 

[Kidkinsey]

going with goku in this one, he is confirmed above god level via defeating jiren (who was above gods before getting his red aura mode) broly still draws god comparisons comparisons, adapating is great and all but if you knocked out before you do it means nothing, not to mention the fact that i dobut goku is going to be hit he was dodging hits from elite experinced fighters i dont see broly who is basically a brute landing a hit, so for a minute straight it will be goku on offense

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean, does Goku even know Beerus's full power?

 

[PridedWaif]

Yeah, I hate when that garbage happens. If you want to long-post, you need to make it a habit to always copy your post and then refresh the page and post it, if it happens.

Ah ok then gotcha, weird though.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I though vs threads involving Super Broly, Super Gogeta, MUI Goku and Jiren were banned just recently because they devolve into toxic threads?

Edit: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4022303

 

[JackJoyce]

It's like 1-A matchups tbh

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I though vs threads involving Super Broly, Super Gogeta, MUI Goku and Jiren were banned just recently because they devolve into toxic threads?

Edit: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4022303

Yes this should've been closed long ago.

 

[Kidkinsey]

its one of the only debatable things in db though, theres actually a discussion to be had most of the time db scaling goes like if you show up in a later arc youre stronger

the only other fair debates i can think of are ranking the buus and dabura vs cell