Movement Beyond Causality

[VenomElite]

This is basically something from the "Possible Senshinkan Speed Upgrade" thread Sera made.

What exactly does this rate as? Moving "faster than causality" could be immeasurable. If time is a direct progression of causation, then for example: someone arriving at their destination before they left their current location (not teleportation) certainly is above MFTL+. Is this infinite, immeasurable, hax, or neither? Speed is a measurement of how quickly an object moves from one place to another. Therefore moving to a place before you actually left, cannot be measured with our limited perception. I wouldn't say this grants acausality nor does every acausal being have this however. Thoughts?

Are our definitions of speed a little lackluster? Questions like this should be answerable by simply reading the Speed page.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I do think that moving faster than causality should be Infinite or Immeasurable, just like moving faster than time (When it is the product of speed) is one of them too. Like the Sky Fish from Castlevania who is so fast that the Time Stop only slows him down, rather than freezing him.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

A question i would have asked months if not a year back but didn't...

Yeah basically, this is what i wanted to know cause Amakasu Masahiko has a thing here that he does in the Senshinkan series. Why i didn't put any value for it was simply because idk what i could have classified this as.

 

[Sera_EX]

Hax.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Moving beyound causality through speed sounds like hax to me.

 

[Kaltias]

Hax probably. Immeasurable is moving trough a higher dimensional time using the regular one as a spatial dimension from my understanding of it, but causality isn't related to speed. But if this lets it arrive in a place before starting, I guess this makes it Immeasurable in travel speed

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Sera, CP, and Kal: Hence why i just put as is on his page.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Probably Immeasurable, if said character can appear somewhere before he even left the starting point.

 

[PaChi2]

"Faster than causality" doesnt make sense. Its causality related hax, not speed.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

Let's logic this:

Causality is the the relationship of cause and effect or the notion that nothing can happen without first being caused, thus movement beyond causality is not speed at all.

It's cutting out the middle man.

Example: You want to go from Point A to Point B. Speed is the distance you cover divided by the time it takes you to travel it. Moving Faster than Causality means going from point A to B without having to Travel X distance in X time.

So basically Teleporting. If I travel 1000 km in 5 seconds, I'm mach 583.

• The Cause: Covering 1000 km in 5 s

• The Effect: Me moving Mach 583

Me moving faster than causality is simply not "traveling" because the causality in this examply is that i'm mach 583 because i traveled 1000 km in 5 s.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with barry

 

[Aridwolverine]

Barry's explanation does make sense.

 

[VenomElite]

"Faster than causality" doesnt make sense. Its causality related hax, not speed.

Nope. Causality and time and related.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Could just be hax tbh. Unless there are strong indicators of immeasureable speed, the speed here would simply be unquantifiable. Though if there are other clues supporting immeasureable speed, then that could be an alternative rating as well.

 

[PaChi2]

Nope. Causality and time and related.

The example you gave was simple time travel.

Causality and time are related yes, because cause preceeds the effect. "Moving" yourself is already a cause and an effect per deffinition.

I moved from A to B. That is the speed feat. Moving from A to B before starting already implies that you started somewhere/somewhen and that is where/when you start, no speed related, just hax.

Moving without the need of causality would be something like getting your dish in the table without actually going in there. The dish moved without a cause. But that is simple Causality manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, considering that immeasurable speed means transcending linear time, I think that arriving before you left would qualify.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I recall that Everlasting a while back had the Amakasu character with his causality breaking speed thing at Immeasurable.

But i still don't know nor feel fully confident that it is quantifiable like that even then so...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, arriving before you left is probably quantifiable, even if causality breaking abilities are more likely hax in general.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Perhaps so...

 

[Sumandark8600]

Loosely defined because I don't want to give a long confusing answer:

The speed of causality is the fastest possible speed at which information can be transmitted. This is defined at the maximum speed anything in our universe an travel, c (the speed of light in a vacuum).

While it makes little sense from the phyics of our universe therefore to claim that anything can move faster than this, we know that in fiction, it is rather common for faster than light travel to occour. As we don't know the physics of these universes we must instead apply their logic as best we can to our own physics and as such it makes sense to say that moving faster than causality in any fictional universe is synonymous with speeds moving faster than c.

 

[Kaltias]

Isn't the fastest possible speed of an information infinite due to quantum entanglement which transmits informations instantly?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Sorry. Perhaps somebody could inform DontTalk about this thread?

 

[Sumandark8600]

Isn't the fastest possible speed of an information infinite due to quantum entanglement which transmits informations instantly?

Quantum entanglement doesn't actually transfer "useful information" as the only thing you can gain from it is a measurement of a thing far away. While it might seem to you that this could be useful and be applied for communication, that notion is incorrect as the state of the particle is still random before you measure it and can't be forced into any given state without breaking the entanglement between the particles. The current definition of causality doesn't define the action knowing a distant particles state by measuring it's entangeled partner's state as a true cause and effect for this reason, asthe result is still very much a quantum phenomona dependent on probabilistic wavefunctions and not deterministic.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So movement beyond causality simply means being swifter than light, for our purposes?

 

[Sumandark8600]

Well I'm new to this community so I don't quite know how this type of feat has been described before on this wiki, but from a purely physics perspective; yes, it's synonymous with faster than light travel, albiet in a more realistic way than is depicted with most FTL feats in fiction.

 

[Sera_EX]

No, that doesn't make sense.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera How so?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

I vaguely recall something along the lines of what Sumandark8600 is talking about from a Halo discussion, but that mostly fell under techno-babble to describe the hyperspace jumps used by their starships.

I don't think that bypassing the natural causality of things would just be FTL.

I'm no math or physics person, so forgive me if my logic is flawed here:

If X goes to Y in literally no time at all, that's Infinite Speed, correct?

By going to Y before leaving X, one is bypassing time, and thus it would be at least Infinite in my opinion (as explained above).

However, the others would probably analyze this better than I.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, causality in terms of arriving before you left would likely be immeasurable. I just wonder if we are mixing up different concepts if what Sumandark wrote is true.

 

[RoyGundam]

"Faster than causality" doesnt make sense. Its causality related hax, not speed.

Nope. Causality and time and related.

Causality and time are related by the speed of light in our Physical Universe. I doubt that relation holds in fictional universes

 

[Sumandark8600]

If from your perspective you arrive after you leave, but from the perspective of others, you arrive before you leave, then that is not breaking causality but instead being faster than it. In that context your lorentz factor becomes imaginary which makes your times dilation negative (i.e. your local time slows to the point that it travels backwards while global time remains as normal).

This is the impression I got from the OP as to what they meant by faster than causality based on their description.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sumandark You do not have to sign forum threads with ~~~~, only do so with talk page discussions.

 

[Sumandark8600]

Sorry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My opinion on moving Faster than Causality...

Firstly, a quick definition of causality: Causality is the linear relationship between cause and effect. I.e, one action producing one reaction. Or as I tried to sum up below in a mini-chart:

Action is Performed >>>> [Passage of time] >>>> Effect is Produced

If I were to punch someone in the face, that would be an action. Said someone getting hurt, and possibly bleeding as a result of my punch would be the effect.

As such, Causality is intrinsically linked to the linear passage of time, and cannot exist or function without it. Since an action can only have an effect through the passage of time.

Now for the subject of moving Faster than Causality proper:

The example that Ventus gives is "Someone arriving at their destination before they left their current locatio".

Now this is a complete violation of basic causality, and also a complete impossibility under linear time. Your speed (presuming that this happens due to speed) is such that you can perform actions so fast that you overrule prior actions. To do so wouldn't even be Infinite, it'd be Immeasurable.

Infinite Speed feats are times in which the speed is such that it would result in an infinite value under the Speed = Distance / Time calculations. Examples include crossing infinite distance in finite time, performing actions under 0 time, moving while time is stopped through sheer speed, acting while time is erased and the present doesn't exist, etc.

Ventus' example can't be infinite. Infinite Speed still conforms to linear time. The speed of the Senshinkan character he brought up doesn't. Reaching a destination before you start moving towards is akin to racing around a lap so fast you catch yourself. It's impossible if following causality and linear time.

 

[VenomElite]

No...

Causality and time are related by logic. Time is a direct progression of cause to effect. However there's concepts such as non-linear time that take a different "path". Seriously faster than light travel is not even possible according to science so why are we bringing up science if FTL and anything far more impressive is purely fictional or not comprehensible in the real world? So every acausal being is FTL? No...of course not. Their relationship with causality is simply different. Hell type 1 acausality is simply being un-influenced by the ordinary laws of time. I go back i time and kill you but you're still alive. Has nothing to do with speed right? But also, there's different ways to analyze "faster than causality."

What you mean is if I for example, ran into a tree so fast it would break, but it doesn't break when I hit it, it breaks later. In this case I seemed to have moved faster than information itself, I initiated the cause but the effect didn't happen immediately. But outright achieving the effect without a cause? Fundamentally different kind of "causality-breaking" speed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mmm... You are probably making more sense.

But the bottom line is, in this particular example we both agree that moving faster than causality is Immeasurable.

 

[Sera_EX]

When we start looking at absolutely everything from a scientific viewpoint, it becomes an objective viewpoint that not every fiction goes by. Sometimes you can time travel by circling the Earth really fast making it rotate in reverse. That's not even scientifically accurate or makes sense in any form yet it's still time travel because that's what happened.

So if someone arrives at their location before leaving, the seems to be being potrayed as immeasurable speed (actually, it can be infinite even, but certainly not MFTL or FTL which in fiction just moving far faster than lightspeed.)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

When we start looking at absolutely everything from a scientific viewpoint, it becomes an objective viewpoint that not every fiction goes by.

I agree with this absolutely. We should always be willing to put the rules set out by the fiction first if contradictions to real life arise. And saying that something shouldn't be possible in fiction because it is in real life shouldn't be used as an argument either, specially when said somethings have justifications in the narrative.

 

[Sera_EX]

Mmm... You are probably making more sense.

But the bottom line is, in this particular example we both agree that moving faster than causality is Immeasurable.

Ven was responding to those above you when he said "No". You posted your reply before he did though ^_^

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

for me it's more dependent on how they did it i mean some move via sheer speed and some do via hax though normally from what i understand they move outside the regular 3D space so its more like immeasurable as everyone says but i wonder does amakasu does his causality thing via his kantan abilities right?