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Morgoth vs Alduin
- Thread starter Iisdude1
- Start date
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Dragons already know the shouts only shout they dont know to my knowledge is dragonen because it was created by humans.Iisdude1 said:
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Except that using that kind of logic would led to things like NLF. This wiki uses feats to measured it's characters. And they are not fighting in ea, they are fighting in New York. I reccomend you to read the Standard Battle Assumption page first.
If they aren't fighting in Ea, then it's not Morgoth that you're talking about, because Tolkien (or from any Universe) characters have rules that only work in their Universe. NLF problem is simply the problem for which any vs.Battle is nonsene.
If Morgoth and Alduin fight in New York you will favor Alduin's power.
You will always favor a scenario.
Except that his ability to erase someone from time is in his profile. You are new here, so you don't know, but we are arguing based on what is in the profile and characters' feats.
And Morgoth's ability to be un-erasable is yours. You have not proved how Alduin can overcome Morgoth's power. A power that is sustained by Eru's own rule that allows nothing to happen to his creatures outside his plans.
Alduin can erase things, it does not mean that it can erase anything.
No, your argument is based on an assumption that just because a character can't be erased on a level of erasure that LOTR universe have, that means that they can survive getting erased by something much greate, which is a No Limit Fallacy.
Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, ''Home Vol.10 Morgoth's Ring
This is an inherent element of the character, just like Alduin power is yours. This is not a level of power in relation to any Universe. You can't ignore this without creating problems in a Vs. Battle.
It is like saying that a character is omnipotent in one Universe and non-omnipotent in another.
Does not make sense.
Except the whole entire game? The whole plot of Skyrim is you trying to stop Alduin from erasing a kalpa, which is a kalpa.
??????
No, it's not a fallacy of ignorance. I'm dismissing it not based on what I believe, but based on the fact that there is insufficient proof that can support your argument.
What you said is a fallacy of ignorance. You said:
If Morgoth has no feats of surviving void manipulation at Alduin's level, then he doesn't resist it. That's how this wiki works.
You can't prove or disprove this, it's like asking whether Morgoth is capable of resist poisoning, since there is no feat about Morgoth resisting poisoning, he doens't.
You used absence to prove evidence.
By the same logic Alduin has not shown any feat about resisting Morgoth's infiltration of matter and living beings, so Morgoth can easily defeat him.
Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'
If they aren't fighting in Ea, then it's not Morgoth that you're talking about, because Tolkien (or from any Universe) characters have rules that only work in their Universe. NLF problem is simply the problem for which any vs.Battle is nonsene.
If Morgoth and Alduin fight in New York you will favor Alduin's power.
You will always favor a scenario.
Except that his ability to erase someone from time is in his profile. You are new here, so you don't know, but we are arguing based on what is in the profile and characters' feats.
And Morgoth's ability to be un-erasable is yours. You have not proved how Alduin can overcome Morgoth's power. A power that is sustained by Eru's own rule that allows nothing to happen to his creatures outside his plans.
Alduin can erase things, it does not mean that it can erase anything.
No, your argument is based on an assumption that just because a character can't be erased on a level of erasure that LOTR universe have, that means that they can survive getting erased by something much greate, which is a No Limit Fallacy.
Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, ''Home Vol.10 Morgoth's Ring
This is an inherent element of the character, just like Alduin power is yours. This is not a level of power in relation to any Universe. You can't ignore this without creating problems in a Vs. Battle.
It is like saying that a character is omnipotent in one Universe and non-omnipotent in another.
Does not make sense.
Except the whole entire game? The whole plot of Skyrim is you trying to stop Alduin from erasing a kalpa, which is a kalpa.
??????
No, it's not a fallacy of ignorance. I'm dismissing it not based on what I believe, but based on the fact that there is insufficient proof that can support your argument.
What you said is a fallacy of ignorance. You said:
If Morgoth has no feats of surviving void manipulation at Alduin's level, then he doesn't resist it. That's how this wiki works.
You can't prove or disprove this, it's like asking whether Morgoth is capable of resist poisoning, since there is no feat about Morgoth resisting poisoning, he doens't.
You used absence to prove evidence.
By the same logic Alduin has not shown any feat about resisting Morgoth's infiltration of matter and living beings, so Morgoth can easily defeat him.
Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'
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..........yea.........a character like sups can beat a tier 0.......Ishneray said:
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is by feats he is there for being above a **** ton of infinities and by just dreaming creating everything, by that logic that you 2 are using i dont know why be in a vs battleIshneray said:
in this verse this character can do xyz and has shown to resist xyz so in a vs he has the things he ALREADY had vs and oponent that can do xyz and has shown to resist xyz
idk what is hard to get about it.
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if this same argument, i can say that Itachi wins against morgoth because its told in lore that just a uchiha can defeat him, see, this dont make sense, because they have a very different power level
Itachi case would be more comparable to the Witch King, a Doom instead of a law. There is no problem with Morgoth being unable to defeat him, based on lore, that does not mean that he can defeat Morgoth, just resist him.
Itachi case would be more comparable to the Witch King, a Doom instead of a law. There is no problem with Morgoth being unable to defeat him, based on lore, that does not mean that he can defeat Morgoth, just resist him.
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That argument is a flawed one because itachi says that but is proven wrong by the manga itself.
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"there is no feats on his part"Ishneray said:
Forgets the lore which everything comes from.....
Azathoth would be to the DC what The Writer is there
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Nothing is before him, be it existence or non-existence. He even predates and indirectly created Yog-Sothoth, who is chief among beings who are and experience the totality of everything. He even spawned the thing which created/became Yog-Sothoth. This is because, as a Tier 0 should be, Azathoth is beyond even the boundless, dimensionless totality that Yog-Sothoth encompasses, since Yog, like all things, is still just part of his dream. Azathoth is all, and while he may seem like an "idiot", all is one with Azathoth, and clearly would be even more so were he to stop dreaming.
"There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep." - The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
"There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. Something else had gone on ahead—a larger wisp which now and then condensed into nameless approximations of form—and he thought that their progress had not been in a straight line, but rather along the alien curves and spirals of some ethereal vortex which obeyed laws unknown to the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos. Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos." - The Dreams in the Witch House
"The passage through the vague abysses would be frightful, for the Walpurgis-rhythm would be vibrating, and at last he would have to hear that hitherto veiled cosmic pulsing which he so mortally dreaded. Even now he could detect a low, monstrous shaking whose tempo he suspected all too well. At Sabbat-time it always mounted and reached through to the worlds to summon the initiate to nameless rites. Half the chants of the Sabbat were patterned on this faintly overheard pulsing which no earthly ear could endure in its unveiled spatial fulness. Gilman wondered, too, whether he could trust his instinct to take him back to the right part of space. How could he be sure he would not land on that green-litten hillside of a far planet, on the tessellated terrace above the city of tentacled monsters somewhere beyond the galaxy, or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth?" - The Dreams in the Witch House
"Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws." - The Haunter of the Dark
"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.
They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
"I am His Messenger," the daemon said,
As in contempt he struck his Master's head." - Fungi From Yuggoth, XXII. Azathoth
The Gates are incredibly vast levels of existence, which first appeared in the Mythos in the short story "Hypnos" where the titular character managed to unlock the First Gate, only to be driven insane by the horrors he experienced. The power of the Gates is nigh-boundless as even Hypnos, a being who was ascending past countless other dimensionless and space-time transcendent realms with relative ease still failed to get past the First Gate. The exact number of Gates is not known, only that there is a 'countless' amount of them, each one transcending the last the same way the First Gate transcended Hypnos
The Ultimate Gate is the final Gate that is absolutely limitless and boundless from the perspective of beings from lesser Gates. It is guarded by 'Umr At-Tawil, an avatar of Yog-Sothoth itself. Past the Ultimate Gate lies the Outer Gods and the Court of Azathoth.
"There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep." - The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
"There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. Something else had gone on ahead—a larger wisp which now and then condensed into nameless approximations of form—and he thought that their progress had not been in a straight line, but rather along the alien curves and spirals of some ethereal vortex which obeyed laws unknown to the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos. Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos." - The Dreams in the Witch House
"The passage through the vague abysses would be frightful, for the Walpurgis-rhythm would be vibrating, and at last he would have to hear that hitherto veiled cosmic pulsing which he so mortally dreaded. Even now he could detect a low, monstrous shaking whose tempo he suspected all too well. At Sabbat-time it always mounted and reached through to the worlds to summon the initiate to nameless rites. Half the chants of the Sabbat were patterned on this faintly overheard pulsing which no earthly ear could endure in its unveiled spatial fulness. Gilman wondered, too, whether he could trust his instinct to take him back to the right part of space. How could he be sure he would not land on that green-litten hillside of a far planet, on the tessellated terrace above the city of tentacled monsters somewhere beyond the galaxy, or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth?" - The Dreams in the Witch House
"Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws." - The Haunter of the Dark
"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.
They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
"I am His Messenger," the daemon said,
As in contempt he struck his Master's head." - Fungi From Yuggoth, XXII. Azathoth
The Gates are incredibly vast levels of existence, which first appeared in the Mythos in the short story "Hypnos" where the titular character managed to unlock the First Gate, only to be driven insane by the horrors he experienced. The power of the Gates is nigh-boundless as even Hypnos, a being who was ascending past countless other dimensionless and space-time transcendent realms with relative ease still failed to get past the First Gate. The exact number of Gates is not known, only that there is a 'countless' amount of them, each one transcending the last the same way the First Gate transcended Hypnos
The Ultimate Gate is the final Gate that is absolutely limitless and boundless from the perspective of beings from lesser Gates. It is guarded by 'Umr At-Tawil, an avatar of Yog-Sothoth itself. Past the Ultimate Gate lies the Outer Gods and the Court of Azathoth.
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There is no proof that the realities are its dreams, this is a myth already quite debunked. Azathoth is apparently an infinite being who lives in the chaotic Universe. There is also no proof that he is forever asleep.
I do not want to go off topic here, so I will not extend the discussion.
I do not want to go off topic here, so I will not extend the discussion.
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give the prof insted of saying "this is not true"Ishneray said:
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This is not my rule, this is the wiki's rules. SBA dictate that the both of them are in New York. If you have any problem, you can ask the OP to change the location. But as of now, they are in New York.Ishneray said:
The whole entire plot of Skyrim is the Dovahkiin trying to stop Alduin from eating and erasing the whole entire timeline from existence. How is that not a proof?
I'm not denying that Morgoth cannot be erased. I'm arguing the fact Morgoth somehow can survive against a level of erasure that is greater than anything that he has shown to resist
Your example doesn't even make any sense. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Morgoth can resist Alduin' erasure. I don't need to provena negative (Morgoth cannot survive Alduin's erasure). That's a Burden of Proof Fallacy.
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give the prof insted of saying "this is not true"
There is no need of proof to prove absence of proof. Azathoth it's just a being in the Void.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3955752
By feats he is not even Omnipotent.
There is no need of proof to prove absence of proof. Azathoth it's just a being in the Void.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3955752
By feats he is not even Omnipotent.
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Your example doesn't even make any sense. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Morgoth can resist Alduin' erasure. I don't need to provena negative (Morgoth cannot survive Alduin's erasure). That's a Burden of Proof Fallacy.
You did not prove that alduin could erase Morgoth, you just committed a fallacy of ignorance.
You did not prove that alduin could erase Morgoth, you just committed a fallacy of ignorance.
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Umm.
1. Omnipotence isn't used in this wiki. What is considered Omnipotent varies by verse. One Omnipotent guy in One Verse (Like Four for example), is utter fodder compared to an "omnipotent" guy in another verse (Like The One Above All or Anu)
2. Things and physiology in universe is equalized in VS Battles, it says that itself in SBA
3. It doesn't matter if "they aren't in the lore", according to zelda lore only a holy weapon can defeat Ganon, but characters Lucifer Morningstar or the Living Tribunal can easily fodderize him due to how vastly above he is.
1. Omnipotence isn't used in this wiki. What is considered Omnipotent varies by verse. One Omnipotent guy in One Verse (Like Four for example), is utter fodder compared to an "omnipotent" guy in another verse (Like The One Above All or Anu)
2. Things and physiology in universe is equalized in VS Battles, it says that itself in SBA
3. It doesn't matter if "they aren't in the lore", according to zelda lore only a holy weapon can defeat Ganon, but characters Lucifer Morningstar or the Living Tribunal can easily fodderize him due to how vastly above he is.
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The thread that never concluded and was left out there and as soon as azzy made his point people sided with him about azathoth being the creator?Ishneray said:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Azathoth_(Cthulhu_Mythos)
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1. Omnipotence isn't used in this wiki. What is considered Omnipotent varies by verse. One Omnipotent guy in One Verse (Like Four for example), is utter fodder compared to an "omnipotent" guy in another verse (Like The One Above All or Anu)
How a omnipotent guy can defeat another?
How a omnipotent guy can defeat another?
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How a omnipotent guy can defeat another?Ishneray said:
Like this:
Let's say Four for example:
Four is "Omnipotent" in his verse (Battle for Dream Island). However, what you see of his "omnipotence" is vastly weaker than other "Omnipotents" because the feats of Four is far lower than another character
In fact, when you judge his bare feats, even characters who have been harmed and have limitations (The Presence is a good example) have shown feats that are VASTLY above Four.
We use feats to judge power levels. Not statements of Omnipotence. Omnipotence is a term that varies a lot between verse.
For more: Read the page Omnipotence
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Like this:
Let's say Four for example:
Four is "Omnipotent" in his verse (Battle for Dream Island). However, what you see of his "omnipotence" is vastly weaker than other "Omnipotents" because the feats of Four is far lower than another character
In fact, when you judge his bare feats, even characters who have been harmed and have limitations (The Presence is a good example) have shown feats that are VASTLY above Four.
We use feats to judge power levels. Not statements of Omnipotence. Omnipotence is a term that varies a lot between verse.
For more: Read the page Omnipotence
It doesn't make sense, but thanks for the explanation.
Let's say Four for example:
Four is "Omnipotent" in his verse (Battle for Dream Island). However, what you see of his "omnipotence" is vastly weaker than other "Omnipotents" because the feats of Four is far lower than another character
In fact, when you judge his bare feats, even characters who have been harmed and have limitations (The Presence is a good example) have shown feats that are VASTLY above Four.
We use feats to judge power levels. Not statements of Omnipotence. Omnipotence is a term that varies a lot between verse.
For more: Read the page Omnipotence
It doesn't make sense, but thanks for the explanation.
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Bump. We just need two more votes.
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Bump.
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Bump again.
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Bump.
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Another bump.
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Just 2 more votes
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Bump
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Kalpa Eating Dragon FRA
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Just one more vote.
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Well, Alduin wins
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Grace.
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