Monster Hunter Upgrade

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Honestly, I don't know how strong that would make Keoaruboru. He seems to be treated as a bigger threat then basic Elder Dragon Level monsters, so I would assume that he'd have "At least Island Level".

Alrighty then. During the Zorah magdaros quest near the start of the game, Nergignate will show up. We know that Zorah caused "tectonic movement", meaning that he shifted the tectonic plates when splitting the Great Ravine. Apparently, the Nergigante showed up because Zorah Magdaros was its prey and it didn't want the hunters to take away it's meal or something. Meaning Nergigante could scale to Zorah?

Aside from that, I don't know much about the story and I am trying to avoid being spoiled. I haven't had much time to play it, sadly.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Nerg shouldn't scale to Zorah, but to the other Minor EDs. Should be obvious when you've seen the one trailer for world which showcases the Minor EDs

Also, Nerg wouldn't be capable of killing Zorah instantly, it's more that Nerg I think keeps taking a piece from Zorah as food instead of just killing the entire thing.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Bump

 

[Dinoman0310]

I feel like if this upgrade goes through, we should first worry about sorting all the pages out that are currently on this wiki.

Like adding remaining Variants like HC's and so on and maybe keys for some pages like Fatalis, Dalamadur and Kirin to distinguish the variations.

we should again add more pages regarding Monster Hunter when that's entirely done.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I agree that we should focus on Deviants/subspecies/variants first. Although, how many profiles would even need the specification of HC, and how would we implement that for the monsters that need them? Would it grant a new AP stat, or would it have the AP as the previous version but with "at least" in front of it to prove that it is superior to the non HC form?

 

[Dinoman0310]

Probably "at least" for HC's.

Then we also got Supremacies which are superior to HC's. And Zenith's which are again superior to Supremacies. Zeniths might be equal or stronger than Deviants.

Things like Burst Species or Origin Species should probably get their own profiles.

 

[Dinoman0310]

But, for this upgrade to go through, aren't we gonna need some more input from admins?

 

[Dinoman0310]

I've also been thinking about this for a while, but shouldn't we mention the rage mode of monsters as an ability on their pages?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

So, looking into it, I can't really find a list for Supremacy monsters. I can only find links to the Monster Hunter Fanon wiki. Although I have seen some two Supremacy Monsters before.

Anyway, The Zenith Monsters are see as bigger threats[[1]] then Burst or Origin monsters, and there are already Island Level monsters in both Origin[[2]] and Burst lists[[3]] (Such as more Elder Dragons, or monsters comparable to Elder Dragons), meaning that we can likely just scale Zeniths to Lower Level Elder Dragons and put "at least Island Level" and "at least Massively Hypersonic+".

If we do need some input here, we could just ask either Weekly or Darkanine for more input on these things. As well as that, we'd likely have to summarize our points with substantial evidence before getting the opinion of an admin, just so that things go smoothly here.

 

[Dinoman0310]

There aren't too many Supremacies and you'll have to look through the Monster Hunter wiki to be able to find them on the monster pages. Even then they don't have all the HC's or Supremacies I think.

Seems good for the Zeniths.

I mean, there's already some reasonable evidence here and I am sure we can find more if necessary.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I agree that we have a good amount of evidence, but I just mean that we have to organize it into a single post/comment so that the admin won't have to struggle with scanning the whole thread. I can organize things later, since I'm not on comp right now.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Alright, that sounds good to me.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Bump

 

[Aridwolverine]

In MHW, it was said that Zorah Magdaros had so much bio energy, that if it died, it would destroy the entire ecosystem of the New World, which is Continent size.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

In MHW, it was said that Zorah Magdaros had so much bio energy, that if it died, it would destroy the entire ecosystem of the New World, which is Continent size.

That actually helps support Zorah being Continent level normally, since it did cause Tectonic movement upon ripping apart the Great Ravine. Thanks for bringing that up!

Also, sorry for not writing up the summary just yet. I've been really busy lately. I'll be able to do it in about 5 to 6 hours from now.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Take your time, there's no rush.

Hopefully Monster Hunter monsters can start being used some more after the upgrade, seeing as how they're currently quite under-used on this wiki.

 

[Aridwolverine]

The Hunter can use a revision too. Its profile is very outdated and only has a small portion of his abilities.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Pretty much all the Monster Hunter profiles are outdated and need reworking. Diablos' profile even uses the old system for Striking Strength.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Speaking of the Hunter, it occurred to me recently that MH honestly needs a lot of work done on revising its speed. Low tier monsters who scale to Agnaktor are likely to receive its speed as well due to being comparable (meaning High Hypersonic low tiers). High Tiers are roughly Massively Hypersonic+ due to Kirin being able to move at speeds comparable to that of lightning according to lore (And while other monsters may be comparable to that, they should still technically be slower then Kirin as Kirin is the monster primarily known for its speed here).

All in all, I think it's safe to assume that the Hunter isn't just "Superhuman with really good reactions" at this point.

However, I do believe that my biggest concern comes with the speed for the top tier monsters. I already made (and linked) two calcs putting Crimson Fatalis/Fatalis/Dire/Aaltreon at Sub Relativistic, and one putting White Fatalis/shantien/Disufiroa/Valphalk at Sub Relativistic+. However, Garuba Daora is outright stated to use beams of light to attack people, there are several mosnters that can summon flashes of light to stun foes (which, technically, the Hunter can block as they come out), and the Dalamadur summons "meteors" stated to be fragments of star in two different places (which would mean that it least these came from our Sun, and therefore would be travelling at FTL speeds since they would be travelling from the Sun to Earth in only a few seconds). If these lightspeed cases are to be acceptable, could they possibly scale to the top tier monsters that are supposed to be superior to Dalamadur/Garuba Daora and then therefore scale to the Hunter?

Also, for when I write up the summaries, I'll likely do it in the form of several comments just because I don't want the comment to be too long and then not post properly or whatever.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Speed has always been a problem with Monster Hunter characters, seeing as how they don't seem too fast in-game. But once you really look into lore, things can get crazy.

But, maybe that could more be considered combat and reaction speed.

 

[Dinoman0310]

Bump

 

[Dinoman0310]

Bump

 

[Dinoman0310]

Bump

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Sorry for taking a while.

I'm just gonna put down what a newer profile should look like for right now. Really busy tbqh

Agnaktor/Glacial Agnaktor

AP/Durability: At least Town Level (When it is threatened by stronger monster it will increase volcanic activity, is also capable of wiping out whole villages [[1]]) | At least Town Level (Should be comparable to its lava-based counter-part)

Speed: At least Hypersonic+, At most High Hypersonic (Can travel to magma chambers 5-10 km underground in one second, which is roughly Mach 14 to Mach 29 respectively. Rivals the Lavasioth in speed) | At least Hypersonic+, At most High Hypersonic (Should be comparable to it's lava-based counter-part)


Diablos/Black Diablos/Massacre Demon Diablos/Varusaburosu

AP/Durability: At least Town level, possibly higher (Is capable of defeating Rathian and Barroth in Turf Wars with ease, is also capable of evenly contending with Black Diablos) | At least Town Level, possibly higher (comparable to a normal Diablos and is capable of evenly fighting one) | Island Level (Stated to be the strongest of all of the Deviants [[2]], is comparable to Elder Dragons [[3]]) | Island Level (Is a Burst Species monster, should be comparable to Elder Dragons such as Garuba Daora [[4]])

Speed: At least Hypersonic+, At most High Hypersonic (Is superior to monsters that are comparable to Agnaktor) | At least Hypersonic+, At most High Hypersonic (Is comparable to a normal Diablos) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Is comparable to Elder Dragons and Elder Dragon-Level Monsters, meaning it should be comparable to Deviljho and Rajang) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Is comparable to Elder Dragons and Elder Dragon-Level Monsters, meaning it should be comparable to Deviljho and Rajang)

Assuming we are to include Burst Species and such, something like this would look appropriate, right?

 

[Aridwolverine]

Looks good to me. On the subject of speed, this means that for The Hunter, his speed would be

Low Rank: High Hypersonic

High Rank: Massively Hypersonic+

G-Rank: Sub-Relastivic. Right?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think Low-Rank and High Rank are fine the way you put them, but G-Rank is where I truly struggle.

While I did make two calcs proving top tiers have Sub Rel speed (Sub Rel+ in White Fatty's case), we still have the issue of whether or not we should go with Sub Rel+ or something around FTL for the Hunter. As I stated above, Dalamadur is implied to have FTL "meteors" and Garuba Daora is literally shooting light at you. The Hunter can combat this so he could scale... But I just wonder what other monsters could be affected by such scaling as well.

 

[Aridwolverine]

I'm not so sure. Personally, I think that Dalamadur should have FTL attack speed with meteors and the Garuba Daora/Shantien/Disfuroa and other "Dangerous First Class" monsters should be base FTL.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

If the FTL thing is to be accepted, then Valphalk would get it as well since it is the fastest monster in the series

 

[Dinoman0310]

I feel like it should be FTL Combat and Reaction Speed and just keep the travel speed as Sub-Rel+ for the Top Tier/G-Rank Hunter. But maybe it should be FTL speed in general.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

We should likely see if we can Darkanine or Weekly to give some input on this

 

[Aridwolverine]

I want to post some abilities that should be in The Hunter's profile. This is only a portion of his powers:

Explosion Manipulation (via Blast, Slime, Explosive Barrels), Stealth Mastery, Mind Attacks (Dragon Element attacks the mind, dealing damage the more intelligent the target is), Power Nullification (via Dragon Element and Elderseal), Sound Manipulation (via Scream pods and Hunting Horn), Statistics Amplification, Regenerationn (Mid-Low, via Super Recovery and Recovery Speed), Resistance to Mind Manipulation (Immune to the mind controlling properties of Effluvium and the Frenzy Virus), Hunger (via Hunger Resistance), Elements, Sound, Wind, Tremor and Blights (Status Effects)

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think it should be specified that on human/human like opponents, the "Power Nullification" actually just keeps them from using their elements and such, since iirc it simply blocks out the elemental effects of weapons.

Plus the Mind Attacks seems to only work on monsters iirc?

Other then that, it seems alright. Although, there are a ton more items that could be included and/or used for more powers. However, those can be added at a later date.

 

[Aridwolverine]

Yeah, Power Nullification from the dragon element seals the elements and status effects of weapons, and Elderseal temporarily seals an Elder Dragons abilities.

Nah, some monsters are outright immune to the dragon element since some of them are just feral beasts such as the Odagaron. The dragon element deals damage through mind attacks which can affect the Hunter. Elder Dragons and other monsters are weak to the Dragon element due to their intelligence.

Yep, the Hunter has a lot more abilities like Insect Manipulation and Healing. These are just from the top of my head.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Well, I mostly meant that the damage done by the Dragon Element that is determined by the level of intelligence only applies to monsters/non-human creatures. Sure, feral beasts aren't weak to it, but it doesn't change the fact that only monsters in the first place take damage based off of their own intellect whereas it doesn't seem to be the case for humans as armor sets can increase or decrease resistance to the Dragon Element, which wouldn't make much sense if it was based off of their intellect.

While one could look at it as humans having 0 for resistance to Dragon Element (which is the case), they have no real strengths or weaknesses against it inherently, but then again the armor itself effects the resistance that humans have, which shouldn't be the case if it went off of their intellect. So tbh I most likely works differently between monsters and humans.

 

[Aridwolverine]

Regardless of resistances that armor gives to the Hunter, it doesn't change the fact that Hunters can be damaged by the Dragon element, with or without armor. Also, like other elements they can inflict blight. If the Hunter was unaffected by the Dragon element, he wouldn't be affected by the Dragonblight either.

Don't forget, the armor the Hunter wears is imbuned with the power of the monster he uses to make it. Such that if the monster resists a certain element, then the Hunter would resist it too and vice versa. So even though the dragon element affects the mind, the armor can modify its effectiveness the same way it gives the Hunter new powers or weaknesses.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I am saying that the manner in WHICH it effects them is inconsistent with what we know.

Monsters take damage from the Dragon Element in accordance to their intelligence, not some other factor such as a bodily/physical resistance.

However, their armor is capable of affecting how the Dragon Element effects humans, despite the Dragon Element supposedly being an element that is focused on a kind of mental weakness/resistance. Armor theoretically should not have that kind of affect unless it outright lowers/raises the intellect of the Hunter wearing it.

So in short, the armor technically shouldn't grant a resistance to Dragon element simply because it was made from a monster with low intelligence, as it is not an element reliant on a physical resistance/weakness/factor (like fire or ice).

Plus I'm not saying that the Hunter is unaffected by Dragon Element since he obviously is. However, they are considered the baseline for no weakness to or resistance to Dragon Element. This balance being tipped by the armor set makes little sense unless it somehow effects the intelligence of the wearer, which seems highly unlikely.

This is why I suggest that it may work differently between humans and monsters, because if we assume it works the same both ways it'd doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Aridwolverine]

In MHW, there is an armor called the Dober Armor which grants Dragon Resistance. I don't mean it has high base dragon resistance, which it does, I mean that there is a skill called Dragon Resistance. Just like you said, armor shouldn't theoretically grant mental resistances, yet there is a skill that does, implying that Armor is not limited to just physical. Perhaps it doesn't just lowers/raises the intellect of the Hunter wearing it, rather it only increases/decreases the Hunter's mental defenses.

There really isn't enough concrete information on how dragon resistances work in Monster Hunter. But yeah, I understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Ooh, I like Monster Hunter.

Can I get up to speed without reading everything?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

@Aridwolverine I suppose it makes some sense if it is counted as mental defenses (although I personally find it funny that gaining mental defenses is basically making the Hunter a dummy)


@Jordan Essentially, all normal monsters/Monsters that are not Elder Dragons or on the level of an Elder Dragon are roughly Town Level due to scaling to Agnaktor who can cause volcanic eruptions, destroy whole villages, and increase volcanic activity in it's fights with other monsters (although monsters like Great Jaggi and the like are significantly weaker). They also scale to Aganktor's speed, which is roughly Mach 14-Mach 29 for being able to travel to Magma Chambers in a desert in about 1 second (that's 5-10 kilometers in a second)

The weaker elder Dragons (Kirin, Teostra, Kushala Daora) and Elder Dragon Level monsters (Deviljho, Rajang, some Deviants and Akantor) are to be considered Island Level due to scaling to Hellblade Glavenus, who has been stated to vaporize entire mountains with ease and because of this feat is oncsidered to be equal to the likes of Deviljho and Rajang. These monsters are Massively Hypersonic+ due to some scaling to Kirin who moves at speeds comparable to lightning. It should be noted however that Kirin should still be the fastest amongst these low-level Elder Dragons/Elder Dragon-Level monsters, but they are all roughly comparable to it due to scaling to Rajang, who can prey on Kirin.

Some of the stronger monsters (Zorah, Fatalis, Alatreon, Crimson Fatalis, Dire Miralis) are roughly Continent Level due to Zorah causing Tectonic Movement and apparently containing enough bio energy to destroy the New World according to a post previously made on this thread. The reason why all of those other monsters scale to Zorah's Continent Level is because they are supposed to be the strongest monsters in the series, classified as "Dangerous First Class Monsters".

This last part is not really confirmed yet, but we are trying to see if we can buff the strongest mosnters and the Hunter's strongest variation to Speed of Light or FTL in terms of speed thanks to Dalamadur's "meteors" coming from the sun to Earth in only a few seconds and Garuba Daora literally shooting light at the Hunter. This last part is not accepted as of yet, but we'll be working on that and trying to see what we can do.

I THINK that sums up the bulk of what we've talked about here.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Got it.

Wow.