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Monster Hunter Upgrade

Dinoman0310

Dinoman0310

102
1
So, even though I only recently made the page for Gogmazios, it, and some other Monster Hunter pages, might need an upgrade. Here's the explanation:

Hellblade Glavenus is a Elder Dragon-level Monster which has been stated to be capable of turning an entire mountain to ash with a single swipe of its bladed tail. This makes it Mountain level.

Then in Monster Hunter XX came Valphalk and Massacre Demon Diablos. Massacre Demon Diablos is known as the King of all Deviants, one of these Deviants being Hellblade Glavenus, thus it should at least be Mountain level too.

Valphalk is an Elder Dragon and thus should at least be comparable to Hellblade Glavenus. But, Valphalk is only a Minor Elder Dragon, which are generally weaker than Major Elder Dragons, some of these include Dalamadur and Gogmazios. Both of these are currently stated as City level. So, at least Dalamadur and Gogmazios should be upgraded to Mountain level
 
Well damn, didn't expect it to be that much of an increase. Besides that, this would also affect Deviljho as it has been compared to Hellblade Glavenus in terms of destruction. Though that might mean the amount of destruction Deviljho causes to ecosystems by eating other species (almost) into extinction.
 
Other sources I've looked at say it is just capable of easily destroying a whole mountain and don't mention the turning to ash part. Not sure if ''easily'' being capable of destroying a whole mountain is still Island level.
 
Those sources just say that it is capable of easily destroying the whole mountain and don't mention the mountain turning to ash.
 
Dinoman0310 said:
Hellblade Glavenus is a Elder Dragon-level Monster which has been stated to be capable of turning an entire mountain to ash with a single swipe of its bladed tail.
Click to expand...


This is what im referring to, this is an Island level feat as we treat being reduced to ash as vaporization
 
I know, but I found two versions: one where it says the mountain turns to ash and the other just says that it's destroyed and don't talk about it turning to ash. I guess that would be "At least 7-A, possibly higher" for everything equal and above to Hellblade Glavenus? This would actually affect quite a few entries like Amatsu, Dalamadur, Gogmazios and some others maybe.
 
Heya, been meaning to make a revisions thread for all of MH, so sorry for not making it sooner.

So, given that HellBlade Galvenus is an Elder Dragon level monster, I think it is reasonable to assume that other Elder Dragons and Elder Dragon Level monsters should scale to it. In this case, regardless if we go with 7-A or even 6-C, profiles like Deviljho, Kirin, Amatsu, Gogmazios, Dalamadur, Akantor, Ceadeus and MAYBE Diablos (Diablos have been considered threats to the likes of Deviljho). In this case specifically, however, Ceadeus/Dalamadur/Akantor should likely be considered above them (though not so far above that the receive an addition tier boost), as these monsters are easily superior to the likes of Deviljho.

It should also be noted that Gold Rathian, Silver Rathalos, DreadQueen Rathian, FireKing Rathalos and Massacre Demon Diablos are also considered to be Elder Dragon Level monsters. So they may receive this scaling as well.

[[1]] In that link, you can see that Agnaktor (a normal Large Monster) is capable of causing Volcanic Eruptions that are able to destroy whole villages, and is a monster that should be comparable to the likes of other standard Large Monsters. I understand that volcanic eruptions vary, but I say at least Town Level to at most City level is the most appropriate range for these creatures. The speed Agnaktor has should also likely be scaled to other standard Large monsters, which means that the likes of Rathain, Pink Rathian, Rathalos, Azure Rathalos, barroth, Tetsucabra, Berserk Tetsucabra, DrillTusk Tetsucabra, Lagiacrus, Astalos and Brachydios could scale.

Also, here is a big one. I know Zorah magdaros does not have a profile on here (yet) but this is kinda important. [[2]] Zorah magdaros apparently caused "tectonic movement" that caused a fissure to open up in the Great Ravine. later, when you go to check out the fissure, if you talk to the people who are there, they attribute the result to Zorah Magdaros, implying that he is, in fact, the one to cause the tectonic movement. This could be a very solid feat, and if it is, that means other Elder Dragons that are considered to be "First Class Dangerous Monsters" like Fatalis, Crimson Fatalis, Alatreon and Dire Miralis scale to this feat, as they are considered to be the strongest Elder Dragons of the series (even above Zorah).

Sorry if the post is lacking in statements/ evidence and such, I'll work on it later when I have more time. Hopefully this will be enough to get a discussion going.
 
I should also make mention that I think Agnaktor's speed should be scaled to the other Large Monsters that I specified would receive scaling from its proposed AP. But I guess that may be up for debate.

I will try to find more evidence of monsters fighting each other in lore. If there are any questions, I'll do my best to clear them up.
 
And don't forget Shantien and Disufiroa, which are considered the most powerful monsters in the entire series.
 
I mean they already scale to the planet level calc that Darkanine made a while back, so none of the things that I listed necessarily apply to them.

[[1]] Plus they should scale to speeds like this anyway.

[[2]] Should be noted that Alatreon, Dire Miralis, Fatalis and Crimson Fatalis should scale to THIS speed specifically, since they are weaker then White Fatty/Disu/Shantien.

There are other speed calcs that I plan on doing for MH, but I'll do them later.
 
Also, to clear it up, pretty clearly states that the mountain is turned to ash, and HellBlade Glavenus is also known for turning everything it attacks into ash. Seems pretty clear to me that, based on what Weekly is saying, it is an Island level feat.

Hell, the in-game monster description states that it can "incinerate mountains with a single swipe of its red-hot tail." [[1]]
 
Pretty much, nearly all the Monster Hunter pages are gonna have to get changes to them to make them look like the usual pages and get their stats revisioned
 
Well, we'll need more input. I'll message someone about the thread to see if we can get these kinds of things passed.
 
I messaged Darkanine about the thread, since he was the one to make the White Fatalis moon pushing calc. hopefully he can find the time to give some input.
 
Oh sorry I didn't see the message in my notifications.

At least Town level, likely higher for triggering volcanic eruptions seems fine to be safe.

Is there any mountain in particular Glavenus is associated with? Or any mountain near by its habitat? I'd feel more comfortable with using that as a base instead of a random RW mountain if possible.
 
[[1]]

HellBlade Glavenus can appear in numerous other locations, but I think this one has the most clear view of mountains. Although, in all fairness, I think it would be very difficult to find an exact size for these mountains.

[[2]] If you check this profile, you can get a look at all of the areas it can appear in near the top of the page. Might be best to find screenshots outside of the ones on that site tbqh, maybe even having to check out some videos of these locations to best see the mountains. But again, it might be really hard to tell how big these mountains are.
 
[[1]] Should also be noted that Kushala Daora dispersed a storm all the way to the Horizon (from what we can see), and also did so casually. This also occurred on the top of a mountain (though IDK if that would help affect the feat in any way). Could be something good, at least.
 
So, the lower end of 5-star monsters (Agnaktor, Lagiacrus, Rathalos etc.) is gonna become At least 7-C, likely higher.

Seeing as how this would affect Rathalos, this would also affect Rathian, but the mature Rathian, which is likely the one mentioned in its lore to be equal to Rathalos. With that I feel like we need a heading on Rathian's page for the immature Rathian i.e. the ones fought in Low Rank, because those are the ones with the 4-star rating. These are also likely the Rathian which are defeated by Barroth and the ones which Great Jaggi is somewhat capable of matching. But, that might just be me.
 
In all fairness, most monsters are comparable to one another in the first place when excluding Elder Dragon/elder dragon level monsters.

Plus, judging monsters based on when they are fought in quest ranks such as 5-Star or 4-Star and such strikes me as strange, since many of these same monsters can be fought in higher ranks anyway. And also, why are we to assume that these creatures are "immature" simply because we fight them in Low Rank? Pretty sure plenty if not all of the Low Rank monsters are not immature, since there are numerous egg harvesting quests, even ones where you have to steal Rathian eggs, which would indicate that they are not immature/juvenile. it kind of seems pointless to add such a Heading/Key to their profiles in my opinion.
 
Huh, that's strange.

tbh I would have assumed that this wasn't the case given how you can steal their eggs (implying the opposite), but oh well.

Regardless, I still think it's kind of pointless to have a Key for a Rathian that apparently isn't fully developed. Seems like a waste of time, honestly. Besides, there would be virtually nothing to rate these versions of the monsters as outside of "at least Town Level", which would kind of be redundant of the profiles here.
 
Yea, it's weird that you still have to gather eggs while the Rathian is apparently immature.

I mean, I don't think it's entirely necessary.

But the threat levels do kind of say something about the power of the monster as Great Jaggi, a 3-star monster, isn't as strong as a 4-star monster like Barroth. And even then there can be differences in power in the same threat level, which I feel can kind of be seen with the how much you're rewarded for the quests like how you're rewarded more money for hunting a Brachydios than a Rathalos while they're both 5-star monsters. Should have some kind of significance.
 
I mean if this is the case and if MH3U is anything to go by, that means Great Wroggi, a monster that should be comparable to Great Jaggi, is on the same basic threat level as a Barroth meaning we'd still have Town Level Great Jaggi despite these creatures outright being weaker then the likes of Barroth and Rathian.

And if look at other stars/Threat levels, Deviljho is the same level of threat that Ceadeus is, despite the latter being FAR stronger and being able to kill an unknown number of Deviljho and monsters like it by destroying the Moga Islands.

That's why I think monsters should generally be considered on par with one another unless explicitly stated (Standard Large Monsters are comparable to other Large Monsters, but these Large Monsters do NOT scale to Elder Dragon Level monsters), because if we go based on Threat Levels or their Stars, then the scaling would get weird and be all convoluted for the pages.

And again, I think it is kind of pointless to have a Rathian Key where it is literally just a weaker Rathian, but with essentially the same AP. There would be little to no point when it'd be far more important to focus on the existing and clearly defined subspecies/deviants.
 
In MH3U, Great Wroggi is 3-star and Barroth is 4-star.

And the reason why Deviljho is the same threat/star level as Ceadeus, is because originally there were only 6-star levels before MHGen. So, pretty much all the most powerful monsters got thrown into 6-star threat level, causing a large gap in power between monsters in that level.
 
I am almost positive that Barroth appears in 3 Star quests alongside Great Wroggi, meaning they are percieved as comparable threats in-game.

And they also didn't change these stars later on to be more appropriate in regards to the scaling of power in later titles, but they went out of their way to change Alatreon.

Regardless, saying that their power varies isn't much of a justification for adding brand new tags anyway. It'd be easier and more efficent to focus on the "average" rather then the multiple exceptions, otherwise these pages will be needlessly crowded.
 
http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Wroggi#In-Game_Descriptio

MH3U In-Game Description: Bird wyverns that spit a poisonous mist. Wroggi travel in packs that are led by the largest and most toxic member. The poison is made in a sac-like organ around its throat; if this is destroyed, the creature's ability to spit is impaired. Threat Level (Õì▒ÚÖ║Õ║ª): ÔÿàÔÿàÔÿà

http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Barroth#In-Game_Descriptio

MH3U In-Game Description: Barroth usually remain beneath the mud, perhaps to shield themselves from heat; they are even known to attack by flinging mud. They will charge in a frenzy at anything that disturbs their bogs. Threat Level (Õì▒ÚÖ║Õ║ª): ÔÿàÔÿàÔÿàÔÿà

And they did add more star levels in MHGen, because before, Kushala Daora was considered a 6-star threat in 4 and 4U, but in MHGen he's a 7-star threat

Also, I am not saying the individual monsters need multiple keys, I am saying that there's a difference in power between monsters of different species in the same threat level.
 
[[1]] Barroth, despite being four stars, is in a 3 star quest. I know Barroth is rated at four stars, but I was talking specifically about the quests here. The threat level stars and Quest stars aren't particularly consistent.

And I know that other monsters have increased stars. I literally pointed out Alatreon for this. My main point though was that Deviljho was not changed to better fit the scale of things, but instead it was kept at the same ranking (to note, even Kushala should be weaker then Ceadeus, and Kushala now has Threat level 7. Along with that, I am pretty sure that Kushala and Deviljho are fairly equal in terms of power considering that Deviljho rivals Rajang and in some cases Kushala struggles with Rajang). Again, somewhat inconsistent.

But I suppose that I was confused about your main point, since to me it seemed to primarily stem from the "Immature rathian/mature rathian" thing. Although, in hindsight, I feel as though the whole discussion is kinda pointless... Because now I think that the Threat Levels are not referencing power in which we can directly scale monsters to, but simply how much of a threat they are to the environment specifically.

This would explain why Kushala has such a high rating, even above monsters that it is canonically equal with in terms of raw power (Rajang, Deviljho). Kushala's ability to destroy the environment is simply superior to the other two. In my opinion, this makes things more consistent as it doesn't directly refer to raw power, plus there aren't many things in monsters hunter that are classified for their power alone in Monster Hunter. Large Monsters are given categories (Brute Wyvern, Flying Wyvern, etc.) based off of their physical traits, while Elder Dragons are specifically classified by their ability to damage ecosystems and if they can not be classified anywhere else (Granted, Elder Dragons are universally more powerful then normal Large Monsters, but that still isn't a factor in determining an Elder Dragon technically).

But all in all, it's kind of a given that certain monsters have a difference in power even if they are considered even threats. However, even if they are considered even threats, the difference in their power wouldn't be a major difference.

tl;dr I think Threat Levels refer to the threat each monster poses to the environment rather then their raw power, but either way these things are still kind of inconsistent. I was mistaken as to what your initial point was and I apologize for kinda causing everything to spiral into this long convoluted debate, and the difference in power between monsters that are considered equal threats is, most likely, negligible and would still have them be rated as the same thing (at least I would assume so).
 
Yea, the difference is probably minor in most cases with the biggest difference being that one is Town level+ instead of Town level or something.

And yea, the threat level might mean danger to the environment, but that kind of could mean power. But the method wouldn't work when we start doin Frontier monsters as those don't even have their threat levels.

So yea, we should just generally stick to lore.
 
Yeah, at the very least lore for now seems most appropriate.

Additionally, I think it is important that we can recognize outliers within MH. Like, for some time Kirin's Small Town Level stat was based off of an item description that it's horn contained the power of 1,000 lightning bolts, which is a fair feat...

However, Zinogre has an item description that says it's claws threaten all of existence (either that or "everything that exists"), which is a pretty clear outlier. Additionally, Alatreon's wings can supposedly cut through space-time or something, which also seems to be an outlier.
 
Yea, saw the discussion about those things and would seem pretty ridiculous if they weren't considered outliers
 
Honestly, what would ripping through space-time even yield for results anyway? I'm actually curious but I just don't know who to ask.

Also, it occurred to me... Is Zorah Magdaros considered a world-ending threat in the lore? Like, are people afraid that it could wipe out all life on the Earth, I mean. Because if not, then shouldn't monsters who are feared as life-wipers/world-ending monsters/threats in the lore (Like Dalamadur) scale to Zorah, since they are canonically perceived as a greater threat in general?

Also, a friend of mine told me something about Nergigante that could be used for a pretty solid feat/scaling. I'll mention it here if nobody minds spoilers for MH:W
 
I don't really care about spoilers and I've already seen the entire story, including the final boss.

Lore-wise, there isn't too much yet on the MH wiki, so I don't know. Could also be because Zorah Magdaros hasn't been known about for as long.

Also, another monster I am wondering about how it would scale is Keoaruboru, which is said to be capable of destroying the entire Interceptor's Base with a single attack.
 
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