Monster Hunter changes

[Lasatar]

There was a thread in the Fatalis section about changes, as can be seen here . It was originally about Fatalis, but got a bit off topic. I've decided to make this its own official thread.

Much of the research comes from these two links:

http://gimmyjibbsjr.deviantart.com/art/MH-Feats-585099384

http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:BannedLagiacrus/Monster_Hunter_Ecological_and_Lore_Info_Blog

Each of these links has featured some new info since the old thread.

This thread can also be used to request a profile for any Monster Hunter character. I will be happy to comply.

 

[Lasatar]

I would also like to clarify one thing: do item descriptions count as canon material, like with Dark Souls? If so, there could be quite a few upgrades. Example: The wings of an Alatreon are said to be able to cut through space and time to destroy the whole world.

This seems like a bit of a stretch, but it's considered a canonical part of Alatreon's lore (if only a rumor).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if destroying entire planets seems to heavily contradict the in-game feats, it may count as hyperbole, but I am uncertain,

 

[Lasatar]

maybe not a planet, but certainly country or continent level stuff there. White Fatalis was proved to be moon level, so I don't see a problem with the other DFCMs being not too far behind.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am uncertain, but would like to read more opinions about this.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Heya. I'm that guy who made the DeviantArt thing about Monster Hunter buffs.

In my opinion, item descriptions should only be taken into account if there are other bits of evidence supporting them.

Alatreon's space time thing is most likely an outlier. Not only that, but this is a clear outlier as well.

Things like Oroshi Kirin being able to freeze over kingdoms in a night are actually complimented by the fact that it has been stated to have frozen whole villages in seconds, so this is more likely to be true.

 

[Lasatar]

Ok. This makes sense. But the fact that it was in both the item description and in BannedLagiacrus' lore blog was why I brought it up.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

That's fair, but in the blog, wasn't it also refered to as a "rumor"? If so, it may take some validity away from the whole "Space Time" thing.

 

[Lasatar]

I suppose. In any case, let's return to the discussion of the Monsters. I would like to clarify the AP, Speed, and Range of Dalamadur.

According to GimmyJibbsJr, the meteors are a piece of a star like our sun. This is supported further by the item "shattered omen", which reads: "A piece of a star that fell at Dalamadur's behest". This supports the theory that Dalamadur is indeed calling down these fragments by roaring. Since it only takes about 5 seconds to land, they would travel at about 96 times the speed of light, or high end FTL+. We can also get a range upgrade; all the way to the sun.

The internal areas of Dalamadur are also said to reach temeratures as hot as a star. This is supported via the hunter's health draining by just being close to its chest. It doesn't matter how many cool drinks they swig down. And the fact that cool drinks can nullify the temerature of Volcanos, that says a lot.

So where am I going with this? I think that someone should calculate the power of the start fragments. Factoring in the speed and the heat as well. with this, we can find the AP and Dura in one fell swoop, because the start fragments count as attacks, and it can get hit by its own star fragments as well.

K. That's enough for now. I'll see what happens from here. I'm also still taking requests, btw.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Well, the FTL speed is likely only attack and reaction speed, so that can be left there.

As for power, if we could get some pixel measurements of the beam attack, we could attribute the beam to being plasma in nature, as it is compsoed of a similar substance to the meteors, but I'm no good at pixel measurements and such. :/

That aside? I think Small Country as the maximum should suffice for now, if not Large Island.

If you will take requests, I believe that revisions to pre-exisitng pages should be made before moving forward with a newer bio, simply so we can get it out of the way and not over look them in the future.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can ask some calculation group members for calculations, but you have to provide all of the relevant scans or screen captures for them to work with. LordXcano and KaenDragneel123 have not had the chance to be very active in that respect yet, so you can ask them if you wish.

 

[Lasatar]

K. I've asked them. Now, it seems we need a scaling for the breath attack. Here you go. This is a Dalamadur Tutorial video by Gaijin Hunter. I have made it skip to the part with the breath attack. Pause it to see clearly (and ignore the fact the hunter takes no damage; he's doing an invincible dive). Assuming the breath is made of plasma, how much DC would it have? We can also ask the same thing about its meteors/star fragments.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, and am generally too busy monitoring this wiki to watch videos.

 

[Lasatar]

I've made it skip to the breath attack. It only takes a couple seconds. Although, I was actually inteding the video for the calc group members I have asked.

I should also point out (again) that in game feats =/= lore. To get a bigger picture on things, click on the link near the top leading to BannedLagiacrus' blog.

 

[Antvasima]

I watched it, but I do not think that we can assume anything about that blast without a scalable demonstration of its power.

 

[Lasatar]

I suppose. That's why I asked the calc group members you suggested. If the breath is indeed made out of plasma, there should be some sort of way to calculate how strong it is. Maybe I should ask the other calc group members.

 

[Antvasima]

You can do so if you wish, yes, but most of them are likely currently asleep.

 

[Lasatar]

Okay. I keep forgetting how much of a time zone difference Australia has to other countries. I'll try late tonight, since it should be morning for them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Lasatar]

Asked them. I'll just wait a bit.

 

[LordXcano]

I'm here. I'll do the thing ASAP. I just need a few minutes for the video to load.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the help.

 

[LordXcano]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Monster_Hunter_Plasma_Beam

 

[Lasatar]

Okay. Now that the beam is done, could you look at the meteors? They seem to be made of the same sort of stuff, and they're moving pretty darn fast.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Will also make revisions to the sheet on DA.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I just thought of something.

Since It's basically confirmed that the body temperature of the Dalamadur is "very comparable to a star's", would the calculation above require the heat of the sun? The reason i suggest this is because the beam is made of a similar substance to that of the meteors that come from the sun, which would make it plasma, as we know... but it means that not only they, but the beam and the giant rock that Dalamadur can create would also be comparable to the sun in terms of temperature.

The Sun's surface temperature is, sadly, less then the temperature used in the calc, but the Sun's core has a far higher temperature, meaning that even with the decreased size of the laser, it would probably yeild a higher damage output, one that would seemingly be more fitting for a creature of it's stature and position in the natural world of Monster Hunter.

 

[LordXcano]

Heat of the Sun's core gives 455.7 kilotons. Large Town.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Ah.

Would this be more reasonable, or should we still just stick with Small Town+?

 

[LordXcano]

It's really up to you tbh. If you have evidence that it should be greater than a monster that has, say, a Country rating then it could be pegged as that instead.

But if this is just a low-level monster then it could be used as an example of the verse being Small-Large Town level at the low-end.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Dalamadur is supposed to be a higher level threat then numerous other monsters who have island level power, from what I recall.

So I'd be willing to accept Large Town Plasma Beam, so long as Phyical Strength and Durability are rated at something like Large island, which would allow it to be above the island level threats, but no overstep it's boundaries and be onpar with monsters that are country level.

I guess from here, we'd have to wait for the others to give their thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

What is the proof of the other monsters being Island level, or the Dalamadur, and its beam, having a temperature that is comparable to the core of the Sun?

If all that is stated is that the beam consists of plasma, then that is all that we have to go by.

I understand that you like Monster Hunter, but it would be far preferable if you do not create any profiles with unreliable guesswork statistics.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

To my credit, I did suggest that the temperatures for the both the sun's surface and sun's core were looked at, though I did immediately say that the surface would bring up a weaker DC then the initial calc. The main reason I suggested we go with the core of the sun's temperature was because it would bring about a yeild more fitting for the Dalamadur. And besides, it is stated that it's body gives off heat comparable to a star, so it's attacks should have a similar heat to a star, at least. Only problem is looking for which part of the star, but I already touched on that above.

As for island level threats, Ceadeus has been stated to have destroy an island and create tsunamis and create earthquakes by scraping it's horns on the ocean floor, and Dire Miralis has sunk numerous islands as well (However, Dire is more powerful then that due to being a "First Class Dangerous Monster", which there are only six of). To be more specific, the islands sunk by Dire Miralis currently reside at the bottom of the ocean. The proof for this is in this blog, which is filled with information from offical sources such as the games themselves and the encyclopedia's pertaining to Monster Hunter.

This is the blog. Again, Dire Miralis and Ceadeus are the main sources, and Akantor scales to this due to being able to somewhat keep up with both Alatreon and Dire Miralis, despite the latter two being more powerful due to their classification.

And thanks to Akantor, Lao Shun Lung also reaches this level, due to how it has no fear of other monsters and is directly stated to compete with Akantor.The Fatalis family is the only thing that induces fear in Lao Shun Lung. So much fear, in fact, that a Lao Shun Lung will do whatever it possibly can to escape the predator. And, on a single occasion, a Kirin appeared with the power of a Lao Shun Lung, and it was nicknamed The Laokirin. Hopefully this will be enough to prove Dalamdur fits in this range.

 

[Antvasima]

1) This is still unreliable guesswork mixed with wishful thinking, and as such is unacceptable.

2) Destroying a small island is not usually anywhere near island level. We need energy calculations to evaluate such feats.

Again, I would much prefer if you do not create any profiles with highly unreliable statistics, just because you like a certain franchise, as this is strongly against the front page rules of this wiki.

 

[Lasatar]

This isn't going to end any time soon, so I propose we stop talking about the Elder Dragons/Elder Dragon Level Monsters and think about revising the old non-elder dragon profiles. Most of them require a lot of work. We can start at the weakest, so Jaggi should be first. Velociprey should scale to Jaggi, which gets two profiles done there and then. After the weak ones are done, we can move up to the more powerful ones. When it comes to more powerful ones, Deviljho should come first, since we already have a page for it. I would like to ask GJJ, how reliable is the Deviljho information on your DA page?

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think that Jaggi being wall level like they already are is pretty fitting, and I would hope that the info on Deviljho is reliable. It is mainly scaled from Rajang, since the two are portrayed as being even, last I checked.

The base for their power comes from Kirin's MCB power, which was agreed upon by others in the original MH thread. Rajang prey on Kirin. So Rajang should be, probably, MCB+. MCB+ would seem to be the best route if any type of scaling were to be accepted. This would then scale to Deviljho, and it would imply that almost every other low-tier monster should be around or below MCB or so (Probably around City Block at most for most other low-tiers, potentially lower).

 

[Lasatar]

That makes sense. But where does the reasoning that GSDJ is mountain level come from? You can't say that simply because it is "much stronger".

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Well, at this point, It would probably be Small Town or so rather then Mountain Level (I've yet to update things on the DA link, since I've been tired lately, as well as busy). So, I doubt that GSDJ is at Mountain at this point, but I did look into Ukanlos, which is stated to casually make meals out of a normal Deviljho. So we could potentially make something out of that, I suppose.

 

[Lasatar]

Ukanlos should be scalable to Akantor. They casually defeat elder dragons such as Kushala Daora and Kirin, and are ranked as one of the most dangerous monsters in the game, more dangerous than Akantor.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Yes, Akantor and Ukanlos scaling to one another sounds reasonable.

All I know is that Ukanlos is easily above MCB+, and should be extremely fast due to the monsters it can beat down. So, in this scenario, what would a suitable power level be for Ukanlos and Akantor?

 

[Lasatar]

I have no idea. All that we really know is that they are slightly below Alatreon and the other DFCMs. The problem is, DFCMs are incredibly difficult to measure the feats for. This is why I am proposing we revise the weaker monsters first. Maybe we could scale them to how dangerous the game considers them. I.E. Alatreon requires HR 80 to initiate in MHGens, while Ukanlos requires HR 60. It's clear that the guild thinks that Alatreon is more dangerous than Ukanlos, and therefore Ukanlos should be slightly behind in AP.