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Monika vs Lavos
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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The **** is going on in here?
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DMB 1 said:
No mortal man under the sun, no powers that be, no chains that bind shall constrain HIM,
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Even thought, I'm probably the only one saying this.
I think Monika's power work on a much more higher or profound scale.
It isn't just like if Monika was a part of a story and the story says that she erases things from the reality in which she exist.
I mean, she erases actual files from the game in your computer.
The story presents Lavos as a powerful character nonetheless, but he can not touch or affect the actual files of the game he belongs, unlike Monika.
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And that is something that can be interpreted as if her power works in certain level, degree or dimension that Lavos is simply not able to reach, her manipulation of reality simply gets to a more fundamental level Lavos is not even awere off, Lavos doesn't even know that he and the reality he belongs to (the game) are a bunch of files or a program running in a computer, and he can't do anything to them. Her powers simply happen to work in higher reality Lavos have never touched. If Lavos, tried to erase her, it would be like if the story tell us that he tried to make something to her, but it wouldn't affect the files, nor source code of the program, on the other hand, if she wanted to erase Lavos, she would erase the actual files that make Lavos, not just "erase" Lavos storywise, she would erase Lavos existence on a much more fundamental level, one that Lavos is not able to affect.
It is like if we lived in the matrix and suddenly a person became conciouss of it and gained the power to affect the very code or the files that made out the entirety of reality.
Or like if the Akashic Records or something of that sort actually existed and you or I could manipulate them at will.
I think Monika's power work on a much more higher or profound scale.
It isn't just like if Monika was a part of a story and the story says that she erases things from the reality in which she exist.
I mean, she erases actual files from the game in your computer.
The story presents Lavos as a powerful character nonetheless, but he can not touch or affect the actual files of the game he belongs, unlike Monika.
---
And that is something that can be interpreted as if her power works in certain level, degree or dimension that Lavos is simply not able to reach, her manipulation of reality simply gets to a more fundamental level Lavos is not even awere off, Lavos doesn't even know that he and the reality he belongs to (the game) are a bunch of files or a program running in a computer, and he can't do anything to them. Her powers simply happen to work in higher reality Lavos have never touched. If Lavos, tried to erase her, it would be like if the story tell us that he tried to make something to her, but it wouldn't affect the files, nor source code of the program, on the other hand, if she wanted to erase Lavos, she would erase the actual files that make Lavos, not just "erase" Lavos storywise, she would erase Lavos existence on a much more fundamental level, one that Lavos is not able to affect.
It is like if we lived in the matrix and suddenly a person became conciouss of it and gained the power to affect the very code or the files that made out the entirety of reality.
Or like if the Akashic Records or something of that sort actually existed and you or I could manipulate them at will.
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FalseTruthMe said:
That is a violation of Reality - Fiction Interaction, and this wiki uses that as being indicative of higher dimensionality, nothing more. The analogy you use to present this is merely evidence of it. Therefore Lavos is capable of manipulation in the same way
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Yobobojojo said:
We still have to evaluate the characters by their respective feats and definitions. For example, Azathoth, The Law of Identity, and Featherine Augustus Aurora are able to look at beyond dimensional structures as mere fiction. This qualifies them as much higher tiers than, for example, Mister Mxyzptlk, who is strictly able to look at 3-Dimensional reality as mere fiction.
And this as well applies to Monika to a certain degree.
Also, Lavos has not shown capable of manipulation in that way.
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Except by definition 4d's which both are inherently view 3-D space as fictional. Unless you're implying that Monika is High 2-A, in which case you should make a CRT, that is incorrect.
Doki Doki also does not have a Composite Hierarchy, so that is moot, as well as comparisons to Tier 0 characters
Doki Doki also does not have a Composite Hierarchy, so that is moot, as well as comparisons to Tier 0 characters
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Yobobojojo said:
I'm just saying that her powers seem to work on a much more fundamental level of reality than Lavos, and that is something that should be accounted for.
Doki Doki was not meant to be some sort of superhero comic franchise or anything of that sort, so of course they wouldn't have a stablished composite hierarchy just like that. But we still try to stablish her powers in a certain tier according to what we have seen her do.Doki Doki not stablishing some sort hierarchy like Marvel Comics, doesn't takes that out.
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The above reasoning basically equals assuming that Monika's power is High 2-A.
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Yes, I just agreed.
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Yobobojojo said:
Also, it is hard to get what is actually higher; if plot manipulation or concept manipulation.
She doesn't have "concept manipulation", so if Lavos can erase Monika as a concept then I guess that should work.
But then, if she manipulates plot itself, she can always make the plot so that Lavos doesn't erase her or even that he erases himself. And we don't know his concept manipulation means his files can't be erased or if they grant him plot manipulation invulnerability
Or maybe not, so we get into a very tricky point
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1254133
That said, even thought Lavos seems to have a lot of powers I don't see anything that says that Lavos have "conceptual" manipulation powers.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lavos#Lavos
Also, here you can see how files are deleted by Monika at the end, I mean, actual files in a carpet that makes part of the game (her reality) installed in the computer.
GTLive Monika and MattyPatty FOREVER! Doki Doki Literature Club! (Ending)
Either way, I gotta go.
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Lavos doesn't have conceptual manipulation.
What he has is more than enough to bypass what Monika has based on what I already said above, tho.
Monika is badly outclassed in the scale of Low 2-C here. Put that along with her durability into account and whatever Lavos hits her with, she dies.
Not to mention duplicates.
Not to mention Existence+Non Existence Erasure.
Not to mention Monika having zero means to put down Mid-Godly regenerators on its level down.
Not to mention as soon as she dies (again, from whatever Lavos hits her with due to extremely low dura), she gets insta absorbed into the thing by Absorption that works on 2-A scales and is confirmed to work on something as immaterial as space, time, space-time that was erased from existence, thougths, dreams, non-existent beings and memories across infinite timelines.
No matter how I look at this, Monika gets stomped hard.
What he has is more than enough to bypass what Monika has based on what I already said above, tho.
Monika is badly outclassed in the scale of Low 2-C here. Put that along with her durability into account and whatever Lavos hits her with, she dies.
Not to mention duplicates.
Not to mention Existence+Non Existence Erasure.
Not to mention Monika having zero means to put down Mid-Godly regenerators on its level down.
Not to mention as soon as she dies (again, from whatever Lavos hits her with due to extremely low dura), she gets insta absorbed into the thing by Absorption that works on 2-A scales and is confirmed to work on something as immaterial as space, time, space-time that was erased from existence, thougths, dreams, non-existent beings and memories across infinite timelines.
No matter how I look at this, Monika gets stomped hard.
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On the scale of Low 2-C thing: This Lavos is Low 2-C via existing, may actually be anywhere between Low 2-C ~ to 2-A and is constantly rising in power. Meaning even if the thing doesn't outright start the match at the absolute cap of Low 2-C scale, at some point it reaches it.
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Like I already said, this is a stomp. Lavos is the kind of guy that'd beat WF if it wasn't for Power Null. Meanwhile WF just brute forced (hax-wise) his way through Monika.
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Well, I'm back, not for long, though.
Anyway, as I was saying.
The thing is that Monika's powers are essentially metafictional in nature, and that places her powers on higher scope.
Lavos have existence erasure powers and existence erasure resistence, but then, again so does Monika, but not only that, his powers operate on fictional level, but Monika's powers operate on meta-fictional level.
Fictionaly erasing Monika's fictional character wouldn't do anything to her, Lavos would have to erase her on a metafictional level to beat her, however she is capable of metafictional manipulation over plot and existence, which as far as I know, is something Lavos has no defense against.
In battles we place them in a neutral scenario in which characters are able to use their powers against each other, that would mean that they form part of the same reality, his powers would work on that fictional reality, her powers would work on a higher reality than that in which both of them are set to fight.
And metafictional manipulation of reality is higher degree of reality manipulation than manipulating things like fictional space or fictional time.
Anyway, as I was saying.
The thing is that Monika's powers are essentially metafictional in nature, and that places her powers on higher scope.
Lavos have existence erasure powers and existence erasure resistence, but then, again so does Monika, but not only that, his powers operate on fictional level, but Monika's powers operate on meta-fictional level.
Fictionaly erasing Monika's fictional character wouldn't do anything to her, Lavos would have to erase her on a metafictional level to beat her, however she is capable of metafictional manipulation over plot and existence, which as far as I know, is something Lavos has no defense against.
In battles we place them in a neutral scenario in which characters are able to use their powers against each other, that would mean that they form part of the same reality, his powers would work on that fictional reality, her powers would work on a higher reality than that in which both of them are set to fight.
And metafictional manipulation of reality is higher degree of reality manipulation than manipulating things like fictional space or fictional time.
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Months ago, I'd probably raise the cross, take up the sword and answer this seriously, but the me of today says "Cal deserves this for making this thread in the first place."
So yeah. Whatever you say, pal.
So yeah. Whatever you say, pal.
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Metafiction doesn't make you suddenly and inexplicably stronger than anyone on your tier. If Lavos simply erases her it's going to work as much as any "metafictional" character. And given that Lavos can indeed kill Mid-Godly people it's really going to work here.
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Saikou The Lewd King said:
Hmm.
Ok, still not sure though, because his powers are not stated to operate in a metafictional sense (i.e through a higher reality than that in which he exist, in which his reality is like some sort of fiction). Also, Monika was still somehow alive as some sort of incorporeal entity, even after her files got erased (which should accounts as metafictional level erasure resistence). Also, not sure if Lavos can resist plot manipulation.
But, well I have to go.
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It doesn't matter if they are not "stated" to operate in a "metafictional sense". Both are Tier 2, which is what matters. And Lavos can (apparently) delete beings like Monika, so she won't survive.
The only legit thing that matters is Plot Manipulation, but Lavos' summoning ruins that anyway.
The only legit thing that matters is Plot Manipulation, but Lavos' summoning ruins that anyway.
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