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Misako vs Hrabbaz

Peppersalt43

Peppersalt43

They/Them
21,998
5,901
ALTERNATE TITLE: BUFF STRONGMAN BODYGUARD? AGAIN?​

As we all know, the last D&D match did not go as well due to the AP advantage. This one should be a lot closer and the better part is, he's relatively low hax and a brawler

Also I'm genuinely surprised this guy has art for him. I thought it's just another obscure character @Tllmbrg picked up for the wiki
● ------------------------------------- ●​
Fireballs rained upon the stone halls of the castle, burning away at anything, or anyone flammable and thankfully, this particular hallway was not carpeted. The spellcasters stood at the start of the hall, their allies laying behind them, having suffered a vicious beatdown from their targets... a pair of teenage girls.

"OK! That should hold them back, I think" Kyoko said, a metal chandelier dropped in front of the door.
"You know, maybe there is something to this nerd crap. That was pretty exciting!" Misako added while wiping her brass knuckles.

"How did our leads even bring us here anyway?".
"I dunno. Something tells me we should've listened to Connor at those investigation board games".

A moment of silence ensued, followed by the two girls exclaiming "Nah!"

"Anyway if Ms. Knight wasn't lying, the final boss should be right around this corner" Misako said as Kyoko went ahead, resulting in her getting clocked with a spiked mace, somehow surviving with just a bump on her head and getting knocked out. Standing before Misako was a tall buff male humanoid with a few monstrous features, his hand holding a spiked mace. Behind him was a doorway revealing a workshop where a noblewoman was working at.

"Another one? I do not have time for this! Do whatever you wish, just keep it down" Yalah said dismissively before opening a trapdoor and taking her scrolls.
"Hey! I just wanna talk to you about... And she's gone" Misako called out as the noblewoman stepped through the trapdoor, earning her displeasure as she turned her attention at the half-orc bodyguard "So... do your parents not love you enough as a baby too?".

"The therapist is getting to the bottom of that. I shall get my answers in my next session, or the one after that" Hrabbaz explained.
"Well that's oddly verbose. Oh well, let's add head trauma to the list of possible reasons!" the teenager replied.

  • Misako has optional equipment
  • Speed equalized
  • Place Located in: Dublin Castle
  • 375px-The_Dubhlinn_Gardens_Dublin_Castle_01.JPG
  • Starting Distance: 5 meters
  • Win via anything!!
  • The Bodyguard : 0
  • The Brawler : 0
  • Incon : 0

jose-jej-ortiz-gralhund-hrabbaz-v2.jpg

VS
misako-fan-art-4xrf41xkrl.jpg
​
 
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Misako's a lot more mobile and has a higher reaction speed. She's going to be hard to land a hit on him. I think because of this, she has more chances to stun and whittle him down as she's used to doing with most bosses like Abobo and Sabu. And even if she does take damage, she has healing items. Eventually, I think she'll come out on top.
 
MaidRips said:
Misako's a lot more mobile and has a higher reaction speed. She's going to be hard to land a hit on him. I think because of this, she has more chances to stun and whittle him down as she's used to doing with most bosses like Abobo and Sabu. And even if she does take damage, she has healing items. Eventually, I think she'll come out on top.
Click to expand...
Alright I never got to talk about the D&D character skill chain last time (Due to the crazy AP advantage Misako had) but this time I can so lemme do the usual thing

As a CR 5 creature it's skilled enough to fight off 4 people at once with each individual being able to take on 4 people at once and repeat 3 more times. Even the baseline and lower tiers can do stuff like this and this
 
Peppersalt43 said:
Alright I never got to talk about the D&D character skill chain last time (Due to the crazy AP advantage Misako had) but this time I can so lemme do the usual thing

As a CR 5 creature it's skilled enough to fight off 4 people at once with each individual being able to take on 4 people at once and repeat 3 more times. Even the baseline and lower tiers can do stuff like this and this
Click to expand...
As said in the Madness Combat thread, Misako can fight 7 people at once at comparable strength to her own.
 
Wait, why are you stacking the amount of people he can fight by cr. That’s not how cr works, and even if it was, people in higher crs are currently rated as being much stronger than lower ones (I don’t think Cr should be used at all for dnd, but that’s a thread I want to make in the distant future). You don’t fight groups of enemies through immense skill, you have a ton of other advantages usually. If you actually threw around 12 to 15 people of comparable strength against a party they’ll die immediately because of action economy.

I also hate how people say “they fight mages”, they don’t really. They can resist the mages powers. When they fail to resist, a dnd wizard absolutely bodies the enemy hard.
 
Keeweed said:
Wait, why are you stacking the amount of people he can fight by cr. That’s not how cr works, and even if it was, people in higher crs are currently rated as being much stronger than lower ones (I don’t think Cr should be used at all for dnd, but that’s a thread I want to make in the distant future). You don’t fight groups of enemies through immense skill, you have a ton of other advantages usually. If you actually threw around 12 to 15 people of comparable strength against a party they’ll die immediately because of action economy.
Click to expand...
You should probably bring that up with @LephyrTheRevanchist
 
I will later, super late where I live.

I’ve been playing and reading up on a ton of dnd recently. From everything I can tell using CR for anything is nonsense, using it for literally everything (like we do now) is completely insane. Though, again, I’m definitely going to need make a thread on that when I get a large amount of free time.

Edit: I’ll be back later, the reason I commented now was so this thread won’t be closed by the time I got back.
 
Keeweed said:
I don’t think Cr should be used at all for dnd, but that’s a thread I want to make in the distant future).
Click to expand...
The highlighted bit? Yeah, I agree lol. However, such are our standards, it is what it is.

Good luck with that thread in the future, tho.

Keeweed said:
You don’t fight groups of enemies through immense skill, you have a ton of other advantages usually.
Click to expand...
I have said this as well in the past. It's a combination of the specific abilities of a monster, it's strength, but also their skill in the case of humanoids (as Warriors are rated higher than a Commoner, and certain Commoners like Lon Jon Raskin being given higher CR than average thanks to his skill and experience). It's an abstract system by nature, because of the game mechanics of the verse... However

Keeweed said:
If you actually threw around 12 to 15 people of comparable strength against a party they’ll die immediately because of action economy.
Click to expand...
You are bringing here game mechanics. "Action economy" as the term refers to dnd doesn't exist on an actual fight. And you are not interpreting the system correctly. The baseline for every encounter is 4 adventurers against 1 creature. One adventurer has a fighting chance against a monster of the CR alone, even if on average he would lose, despite whatever skill level he would have (I have found in the past how the average elf has couple of decades of experience and training, yet still rate as a ½ CR challenge alone, so a level one adventurer can comfortably take him on). The higher you raise the CR, the better an adventurer should be, because they take higher and higher challenges. Yet the monster can always take on four. That's unironic skill, despite certain monsters behaving animalistically.

Keeweed said:
I also hate how people say “they fight mages”, they don’t really. They can resist the mages powers. When they fail to resist, a dnd wizard absolutely bodies the enemy hard.
Click to expand...
This is also teetering on game mechanics. In verse, a mage doesn't body anyone that rivals their level. That's a measure of skill displayed by a creature too, the fact they are treated as a challenge even by someone that can teleport, cast fireballs (which doesn't require resistance, but speed to partially avoid, btw), range spam, etc etc etc. Despite the presence of someone that can spam haxes and "should" by all measure "body" the encounter, that's not what happens. The system tells us a team of 4 of those haxlords can only manage a 50/50 chance against someone of equal CR to their levels. By the abstract system of the verse, that's a measure of skill.
 
Keeweed said:
I will later, super late where I live.

I’ve been playing and reading up on a ton of dnd recently. From everything I can tell using CR for anything is nonsense, using it for literally everything (like we do now) is completely insane. Though, again, I’m definitely going to need make a thread on that when I get a large amount of free time.

Edit: I’ll be back later, the reason I commented now was so this thread won’t be closed by the time I got back.
Click to expand...
As I have expressed couple of times in the past, I do agree with this. However, I disagree with it not being a measure of skill, as that is indeed part of what CR measures in the first place. My personal problem is scaling power levels to it, as you have stuff like Possessing Imps scaling to a Bullete, which is non sense. It's way more nuanced than that. But, since that's how it is treated in the wiki, it is what it is and I personally don't know a better alternative.
 
Peppersalt43 said:
Alright I never got to talk about the D&D character skill chain last time (Due to the crazy AP advantage Misako had) but this time I can so lemme do the usual thing

As a CR 5 creature it's skilled enough to fight off 4 people at once with each individual being able to take on 4 people at once and repeat 3 more times. Even the baseline and lower tiers can do stuff like this and this
Click to expand...
By the current standards, this is correct.
 
Saying action economy is gameplayie, yeah, so let me rephrase. Your level 5 party will lose if you throw 15 cr 4 or 3 enemies against them. Unless they have an external advantage (like prep or magic) they will always die.

I think CR has even less of a reason to be used as a showcase of skill. By that logic creatures with that have negative scores in dexterity, intelligence, and wisdom are somehow more skilled than a trained fighter with a 20 in all three. DND has a skill stat, it’s dexterity for the most part, a bit of wisdom and intelligence

The reason monsters can fight 4 people at once usually comes from many other advantages, one of which can or can’t be skill. Most monsters are tankier and stronger than all the individual party members, have exotic powers, or have some other advantage. Some are skilled, like the ones stated to have martial maneuvers and high dexterity, but the large majority don’t. Most dnd bestiaries are dominated by ravenous or mindless beast that often win though might or power.

A beholder isn’t skilled in combat, it just is stupidly smart and has durability negating eye beams. But if we went of Cr, somehow the beholder would be better with a sword than people that studied with it for their entire lives.

A bit unrelated, but seriously throw any dnd monster against a wizard of comparable level, but have the monster always fail it’s saves (meaning you don’t take into account dnd’s resistances, which are absolutely canon based of the Eldritch knight). The monster will almost universally get stomped every time (unless it has its own overpowered exotic ability). So saying monsters can fight against wizards plus the other party members is heavily misleading. They fight because they have resistances, not because they somehow skillfully avoid the spells (despite many spells just happening, they don’t need to travel to you (polymorph, hold person, command, hypnotic pattern, etc)).

So TLDR

What is this Hrabbaz’s own feats of skill, because he has 100% average intelligence and slightly above average skills according to the state block.

Second (I actually completely forgot what I was going to type here because it’s very late and I’m kinda sick, I’m letting you know because it’s annoying me greatly that I forgot) can we continue this conversation on my wall so this thread doesn’t get derailed.
 
You are once again interpreting it wrong. I see what's your problem now.

Keeweed said:
A beholder isn’t skilled in combat, it just is stupidly smart and has durability negating eye beams. But if we went of Cr, somehow the beholder would be better with a sword than people that studied with it for their entire lives.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't mean the Beholder is suddenly skilled with a sword. It means a Beholder wouldn't get bodied by someone using a sword. Immense difference in interpretation.

For this particular individual, the fact he can give other casters fight, through a combination of resistances, and martial skill, he would win this match up. That is it.
 
“through a combination of resistances” That ends the arguement right there. If he didn’t resist he would get immediately bodied. A single casting of hold person, web, or hypnotic pattern gets him obliterated by a party. He doesn’t dodge any of these spells, he specifically would need to resist (except for technically web, but web because that’s resisted through strength rather than innate resistance).

As for the martial skills, which ones? Which ones does he showcase. I don’t care what the other guy did, my entire point was that I don’t see why CR would mean he’s automatically better, when he has his own listed skill and intelligence stat, along with his own martial moves.

The beholder absolutely gets bodied in melee combat if a fighter or monk can get in close (unless it turns off its antimagic beam to shoot them, but then it’s just winning through sheer durability negation). The beholder also gets bodied in a magic fight if it didn’t have any resistances at all. Without resistances nothing stops a wizard from just immediately turning the beholder into a rat and winning the fight instantly (he has to turn off the anti magic field to shoot the wizard, so that’s not a reason for a beholder to win against a wizard).
 
Keeweed said:
“through a combination of resistances” That ends the arguement right there. If he didn’t resist he would get immediately bodied. A single casting of hold person, web, or hypnotic pattern gets him obliterated by a party. He doesn’t dodge any of these spells, he specifically would need to resist (except for technically web, but web because that’s resisted through strength rather than innate resistance).

As for the martial skills, which ones? Which ones does he showcase. I don’t care what the other guy did, my entire point was that I don’t see why CR would mean he’s automatically better, when he has his own listed skill and intelligence stat, along with his own martial moves.

The beholder absolutely gets bodied in melee combat if a fighter or monk can get in close (unless it turns off its antimagic beam to shoot them, but then it’s just winning through sheer durability negation). The beholder also gets bodied in a magic fight if it didn’t have any resistances at all. Without resistances nothing stops a wizard from just immediately turning the beholder into a rat and winning the fight instantly (he has to turn off the anti magic field to shoot the wizard, so that’s not a reason for a beholder to win against a wizard).
Click to expand...
As said, you are interpreting it wrong plus you are on the mindset of it being a game.

This is very simple. Despite the fact that by sheer statistics and mechanics a Wizard by all accounts can pass an encounter by it's lonesome, that's not what the system tells us. It is in universe a 50/50 chance that a creature of given CR can win against a party of any combination of 4 wizards (with any variety of spells, feats, stats, etc; whether they are with fighters, rangers, monks, etc; of whatever humanoid race or even monster at their side). A wizard (an adventurer in general) can use their resources to know what monsters are resistant to and use their prep against them. That's in fact expected. The monster can still challenge them regardless. That's fact.
 
I know what the game designers said, but that’s in relationship to it being a game. How does he win in verse. Because, in verse, without just resisting everything, he would be wrecked. How would he ever stop hold person when it is literally can’t be dodge, because it’s an effect that just happens. How would stop command, suggestion, web, hypnotic pattern, or any other cc spell.

Also, you missed one of my points. He doesn’t need to win from skill. He could win from any other advantages. Most monsters have vastly higher stats then individual party members, many have abilities that can wreck you, many are faster, many have magic. This guy in particular has an immensely high strength stat.

Wizards are specifically weak physically and he has resistance to their spells, he doesn’t need immense skill to win (ignoring how I don’t even think he did win).
 
Keeweed said:
Wizards are specifically weak physically and he has resistance to their spells, he doesn’t need immense skill to win.
Click to expand...
A wizard can also boost itself, make himself skilled with weapons. Hell, depending on the race and feats at their disposal, a wizard may indeed be able to combine martial skill with spell abilities. Any combination you can think of by level 5. Doesn't matter. It's a 50/50 chance against a party of 4.

Also, by current standards, the wizard can tank those physical blows and dish them back (and funny enough, by game mechanics they indeed can, it's just not optimal). Scaling is a thing.
 
I didn’t mean they weren’t comparable in any way, I mean that in comparison to the other classes, they are much easier to kill.

They can fight 4 because that’s how the game is designed. But what in verse reason do the creatures have to win. It doesn’t need to be skill. It can be skill, but it doesn’t need to be. Which is why I’m asking for more than just, ‘he can fight the party’, because he could be able to fight them for any number of reasons. So what makes it pure skill in this case. Just being a physical fighter does mean it has to be skill, he has an immensely above average strength stat and is tankier than any individual party member. Why does he win through skill rather than strength? Why would he scale to other characters and npcs that seem to have nothing to do with him other than the party could possibly fight them.
 
Yeah, it's not just skill. We do take that into account. But since we can't know how any given fight can reasonably take place, skill is also there by what CR measures in the first place, which is challenge. That's the argument why we take it as a measure of skill too.

Fact of the matter is, this guy on average can take on flying opponents, martial artists, haxlords, etc, each that can take on creatures with all manner of skills and abilities, from any kind of race (and even other monsters), each of them having experience and fighting chance against multiple people lower on the CR pole yet (by current standards) comparable in stats through scaling (both downscale and upscale). We can't say how, not even say it's because of his strength because you can as well summon something stronger. But he can. By reasonable assumption, he must have skill.
 
“He can take on flying opponents, martial artists, haxlords, etc”

No he can’t, if you put him against a flying opponent he would absolutely lose, many monsters get wrecked by flight. He could fight the martial masters for any number of reasons, many unskilled, moronic monsters fight them through sheer physical power, why could he not. He resist their hax, if he doesn’t he immediately loses.
 
Keeweed said:
“He can take on flying opponents, martial artists, haxlords, etc”

No he can’t, if you put him against a flying opponent he would absolutely lose, many monsters get wrecked by flight. He could fight the martial masters for any number of reasons, many unskilled, moronic monsters fight them through sheer physical power, why could he not. He resist their hax, if he doesn’t he immediately loses.
Click to expand...
Yes, he can. The game considers it a 50/50 chance. It is what it is.
 
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