Minor Pokemon Type Standards Revision

[Chariot190]

I was just replying to the implication that Smack Down and Soak were basically the same thing, when they are not, so I don't see the point in comparing them.
Levitate does not have flying energy. It's an ability, which do all sorts of illogical things. I could give you a very long list.

There is a point, if all the moves and items effect the typing like you claim, why not have the moves merely remove or alter the typing? We know Game Freak has implemented moves and items that DO in fact do that, so why's this any different?

I don't follow this "Gamefreak would if they could, but they don't, despite having the code, because they're bad developers, and this is well known." It's all just so much speculation about intentions you have no way of knowing.

Cool, but if that's the case, your whole argument also falls flat because if they actually did alter the typing, then they could just copy the code and check off the flying type flag for the afflicted mons, it would be incredibly simple. Just take the flag that lists the mon as flying, then flick it off for however many turns or in battle, much like how Soak flicks the flag for water type.

What we have for a fact is what's in the game, and it's not this theoretical you're pushing.

Which is why I'm arguing it, all these items, moves, etc simply say "they become grounded/airborne lol", they never once state your claims.

 

[Marcusbwfc]

is defo just a game mechanic, if you throw a bone at a bird itll hurt them but in the games bonemerang does nothing. itd just be them flying to avoid it rather than it bounces off their faces and does nothing

 

[Pikaman]

Ok time to respond to this I guess

The resistance doesn't exist for flying pokemon in the first place outside of in-gameplay, meaning? It's not a real resistance.

Source: Trust me bro

but the only actual reason why Flying Type Pokemon are considered "immune" to ground type moves is strictly because flying type pokemon are not in contact with the ground.

This is bull crap but I’ve read ahead so I know you try and debunk the point I’m about to make so I’ll leave it for later

• The ability Levitate, used by some pokemon like Gengar, negates ground type attacks by floating in the air.
• Magnet Rise, a move that grants the user "immunity" to ground type attacks by rising into the air.
• Items like the air balloon, which allows the user to be "immune" to ground attacks by floating in the air.
• Items like the iron ball, which makes the user vulnerable to ground type attacks by making them incapable of flying while holding it.
• Gravity, a move that increases gravity to make flying type Pokemon grounded by making them incapable of flying, making them vulnerable to ground type attacks.

Pretty much what FinePoint said tbh, there’s direct contradictions to this as well in other moves like Bone Club, and your head-canon explanations on why that evidence doesn’t work I’ll get to later

In addition to that, another damning piece of evidence to debunk this resistance being a thing is the fact that, even by Pokemon's weird typing relationship rules, a flying type pokemon is somehow supposedly "immune" to ground attacks......yet they are considered weak against rock type attacks. And yes, im arguing against ground and earth being somehow considered 2 different typings. There's literally no explicit difference between rock and ground, they're literally the same thing

Damning evidence my ass. Guess what Kukui, video games do not always follow logic, shit like Rock and Ground being inherently different sounds a bit stupid to us, but in the Pokémon verse there is a CLEAR difference. Arguing Rock and Ground are the same thing massacres the whole point of typings in Pokémon, also Arceus plates etc. etc. are in lore explanations as well.

"B-but flying type pokemon have been shown perched to the ground before and still haven't gotten effected by ground type moves!"

Avatar misrepresentation, and a blatant abuse of in-game mechanics to a stupid degree, incase this comes up. Flying types appearing they're "perched" on the ground when in battles is largely because of the sprites in-game not being animated like they have been in recent gens.

You sure do love the term game mechanics Kukui huh. The argument that flying type Pokémon ALL fly and that lack of ability to represent this in sprites is the only thing preventing that from being shown is so full of shit, you wanna talk about misrepresentation and yet despite being an avid supporter of the verse in this wiki and a fan of the franchise itself, you have conveniently forgotten numerous examples of both ends of this argument being wrong. Not all flying types were grounded in older games, not all flying types are airborne in the newer games. If sprites only didn’t fly because they weren’t animated like in “newer gens” then why did older gens pull flying off just fine, and why are there still grounded flying types in said “newer gens”? Because this argument is ridiculous, and I literally already debunked it in the cosmology thread.

On top of this, not only are flying type pokemon more consistently animated to be flying rather than just "sitting" on the ground, but appearing to just be "standing up" doesn't mean they're grounded. It's like saying Pikachu in Brilliant Diamond / Shining Pearl has damage transferal because he can damage you using double kick without actually being shown kicking you. Instead. he jumps up and down in the same spot he's in instead of physically going to the opponent and kicking them. But that doesn't mean anything, and neither would this point on being perched.

You know there’s a difference between these two, again, I already discussed this in the cosmology thread. There is a massive difference between “I click an attack called double kick, my character does a little animation without actually moving towards the opponent, and an image of a foot covers my opponent twice, each time this happens they take damage, this is an artistic portrayal of said double kick” and “Yeah the sprite shows them on the ground but ARE THEY REALLY?” It’s deduction and reasoning against tinfoil hats. One has miles more direction going for it than the other, equating them is stupid.

Everything so far is just from what the games have provided us too. This gets even more damning if we include the anime, where flying types like Ash's Charizard gets effected by magnitude by Gary's Golem, or when Ash's Staraptor gets effected by toxic spikes from Paul's Drapion. And why? Because both were in contact with the ground to receive the effects of both moves. Arguing against the idea that flying types don't have an actual legitimate resistance requires you to take the in-game treatment of Pokemon types to a very big degree and ignore a plethora of proofs, even from in-game, that prove the resistance is something born from a game mechanic in the first place itself.

When there’s a CRT proposing splitting game and anime, and it’s gotten heavy staff support, using evidence from anime is a poor choice. This evidence is the best you have and it’s likely to be nulled.

Bone Club and Bone Rush are easily explainable. Since they're signature moves of the Cubone line, pokemon who don't fly, these are moves that are out of range with flying types who are in the sky and don't have the range to hit them. Same thing with Boomerang.

Headlong Rush is also the same thing, as the only pokemon who use them, Torterra and Ursaluna, who cannot fly or reach flying types wouldnt be able to hit them. The move is a physical tackle, something easily dodgeable by an aerial opponent.

High Horsepower is the same thing.

The only ones that make some amount of sense are the projectile type ones like mudslap or mud bomb, but that too can be summed up to the moves simply not having the range to hit flying types who are able to simply fly out of their range and dodge them easily mid air.

Absolutely shameless head-canon, “they just dodge” ok cool proof, statements, anything other than “they just do because I said so” even range arguments are stupid, prove Ground Type moves somehow have inferior range or can be dodged easier than every other type in cases like Bone Club


Ultimately, this comes down to the fact that Flying Type is not the state of Flying, and yet it nearly universally resists ground regardless. Not all fire types are on fire, which would be the reasoning why water would be super effective (because water puts out fire), they all get affected just the same. Flying Type isn’t any different. I’m sure some group of gamefreak employees designated the reasonings behind certain type (dis)advantages with some kind of logic, but that logic and the “weaknesses” or in this case resistances don’t actually all follow that same rule book. Not all fire types are made of fire, not all rock types are sentient rocks, not all flying types actually fly. It’s not the condition for gaining the typing or the way resistances and weaknesses work.

I strongly disagree with the proposals here for the many reasons I’ve listed above

 

[Lynieryz]

Disagree fra.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ok time to respond to this I guess

And vice versa. Because you love to repeat yourself.

This is bull crap but I’ve read ahead so I know you try and debunk the point I’m about to make so I’ll leave it for later

Right back at you.

Pretty much what FinePoint said tbh, there’s direct contradictions to this as well in other moves like Bone Club, and your head-canon explanations on why that evidence doesn’t work I’ll get to later

This was already countered and really it doesn’t matter. Because like I said, at the absolute worst, these clash of moves and moves negating this so called immunity by sending them to the ground makes this entire resistance remarkably inconsistent. Period.

Damning evidence my ass. Guess what Kukui, video games do not always follow logic

Not an excuse. And guess what? That can be sent right back at you. Not always following logic can also exactly mean the resistance isn’t real and is a bi-product of game mechanics in the first place.

shit like Rock and Ground being inherently different sounds a bit stupid to us, but in the Pokémon verse there is a CLEAR difference. Arguing Rock and Ground are the same thing massacres the whole point of typings in Pokémon, also Arceus plates etc. etc. are in lore explanations as well.

This doesn’t answer the actual question. Why should we as a site consider these separate types just because Pokémon does?

You sure do love the term game mechanics Kukui huh.

For a game originating verse? Yes, that term is going to be thrown around a lot like it is for every other game verse. Get used to it

The argument that flying type Pokémon ALL fly and that lack of ability to represent this in sprites is the only thing preventing that from being shown is so full of shit, you wanna talk about misrepresentation and yet despite being an avid supporter of the verse in this wiki and a fan of the franchise itself, you have conveniently forgotten numerous examples of both ends of this argument being wrong.

This was debunked in the other thread and as well as in this one. Again, being depicted as “standing up” doesn’t mean they actually are. You can save yourself the trouble and go right back to my Pikachu example of why this is meaningless

Not all flying types were grounded in older games, not all flying types are airborne in the newer games.

Irrelevant. Chariot already debunked this with the Duduo example and them having flying capabilities.

If sprites only didn’t fly because they weren’t animated like in “newer gens” then why did older gens pull flying off just fine, and why are there still grounded flying types in said “newer gens”? Because this argument is ridiculous, and I literally already debunked it in the cosmology thread.

Because it’s a simple case of avatar representation and taking this as ******* literal as you are trying to make it is genuinely stupid.

On top of that, my examples have an actual in canon proof of the flying type not having this resistance as them forcefully grounded makes them vulnerable to ground moves, so the misrepresentation of avatars appearing “standing up” has a leg to stand on.

You on the other hand haven’t brought a shred of evidence to go against this other than silly copouts that don’t change the inconsistency existing.

You know there’s a difference between these two, again, I already discussed this in the cosmology thread.

There isn’t any difference

There is a massive difference between “I click an attack called double kick, my character does a little animation without actually moving towards the opponent, and an image of a foot covers my opponent twice, each time this happens they take damage, this is an artistic portrayal of said double kick” and “Yeah the sprite shows them on the ground but ARE THEY REALLY?”

Except you haven’t negated the fact that the sprites and avatars in-game are just artstytic portrayals as a whole and shouldn’t be taken literally.

Not to mention the fact that your argument would be going with the notion that Pokemon are stationary when not commanded, only move when attacking, and when getting attacked they are still stationary. This is ******* idiotic to believe.

When there’s a CRT proposing splitting game and anime, and it’s gotten heavy staff support, using evidence from anime is a poor choice. This evidence is the best you have and it’s likely to be nulled.

Good thing I don’t need it. This was an extra point.

Absolutely shameless head-canon, “they just dodge” ok cool proof, statements, anything other than “they just do because I said so” even range arguments are stupid, prove Ground Type moves somehow have inferior range or can be dodged easier than every other type in cases like Bone Club

Thousand Arrows already proves this as it’s a projectile based ground move that is launched into the sky and it’s the ONLY ground type move out of them all that’s blatantly and out right said to effect flying types.

Being projectile based doesn’t mean it has the range to hit aerial opponents. Especially when the bone moves are used by the cubone line, who can’t fly, and just throw them across from themselves, which =/= hitting things in the air. And the fact these
moves don’t have what Thousand Arrows has is more proof of this.

Ultimately, this comes down to the fact that Flying Type is not the state of Flying, and yet it nearly universally resists ground regardless.

And yet these so called flying types lose this so called immunity when not being able to be in the air. Again, you have absolutely nothing that counters that

Not all fire types are on fire, which would be the reasoning why water would be super effective (because water puts out fire), they all get affected just the same. Flying Type isn’t any different.

False equivalence as fire types don’t need fire on their physiologies to get super effected by water when their physiologies are heat or flame based.

I’m sure some group of gamefreak employees designated the reasonings behind certain type (dis)advantages with some kind of logic, but that logic and the “weaknesses” or in this case resistances don’t actually all follow that same rule book. Not all fire types are made of fire, not all rock types are sentient rocks, not all flying types actually fly. It’s not the condition for gaining the typing or the way resistances and weaknesses work.

See above.

Regardless, none of your points, even if they had any validity to them, changes the fact that a flying types resistance is far too inconsistent and still needs to get removed for that reason alone.

 

[Chariot190]

not all flying types actually fly

Actually, pretty sure they do? Looking through every flying type, as of now. They have all displayed flying capabilities. There is only a singular flying type in existence that can't actually fly, but even then it can like kinda glide.

 

[Pikaman]

Actually, pretty sure they do? Looking through every flying type, as of now. They have all displayed flying capabilities. There is only a singular flying type in existence that can't actually fly, but even then it can like kinda glide.

Isn’t it mentioned in like 100 Pokédex entires Vullaby has wings far too short to actually aid it in flying? Actually, that’s a great counter-point against this CRT, a Pokémon who literally cannot fly, but still gets that resistance because of its typing

 

[Antoniofer]

Honestly, I'm not convinced by Flying types being immune to "ground energy" and ability that allows pkm to move through the air convenientely grant immunity to "ground energy". It is pretty straight that flying pkm and pkm that can fly are immune to ground type attacks just because they aren't in contact with the ground.

Ranged ground type attacks do not work in game most likely due game design or otherwise due the development being lazy. Men, Sand Attack is a ranged ground attack and it works normally in flying type pkm, as well Arena Trap can affect flying types once they are in land. ¿But Arena Trap is not a movement, is an ability? Come on, what makes it different from Scorching Sand and Sand Tomb?

Is there any evidence os flying type pkm being immune to sand attacks due their typing? Obviously, I'm not asking about instances of pkm flying out of range.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Which is also weird when this very said Pokémon that can’t fly fully yet…can use flying moves.

And not just gliding ones, but ones that full on need flight. Like Brave Bird

 

[Chariot190]

Nope, Vullaby can in fact, learn fly and fly your ass around.
There is a Pokemon that fits your description tho, but they also point out it can hulk jump and shit so...

But no, your counter isn't a counter, at least not to the change as a whole, because in order for this CRT to actually be countered, you'd have to counter the items, moves and what not doing what they do to mitigate the immunity (That being grounding a pokemon). Nobody has actually done that beyond saying they secretly alter the flying energy a Pokemon holds, even though that's blatantly not true, never said, and if it was the case, it probably WOULD do that given other moves and items can do that so why not just have them do that if that's actually what they're doing? Also levitate goes brrr, despite not having any implementation of flying energy. And then items like iron tail are just????

You could counter the rest of the OP, but if you fail to counter that, it really doesn't matter. You can't just cherry pick points, you need to actually hard counter that with solid facts and statements, not baseless presumptions that are kinda blatantly contradictory.

 

[Lynieryz]

So let's give immunity to ground attacks to any pokemon capable of flying!!! Not just flying types. (It just doesn't make sense)

 

[Sniper670]

I'm still looking for scans but I was informed by Weebs on Pokémon anime subreddit ground type moves works just fine on Flying type.

The "Immunity" is more of a range thing.

 

[Chariot190]

So let's give immunity to ground attacks to any pokemon capable of flying!!! Not just flying types. (It just doesn't make sense)

They should tbh, usually how it works in most media, buff my boy Venomoth. But ignoring that, that's kinda what levitate is supposed to be "This pokemon is almost always flying, so, let's give them an ability so they're immune to ground types to reflect that fact of airborne mobility as their most common method of movement".
The only times where that isn't applied is when the Pokemon in question has a different ability for more important reasons, that isn't to say in the lore they ain't levitating, just that for gameplay, that other ability was more important to give and as pokemon only have one ability, they get ****** lmao.

To give an example, Gengar, that bad boy had levitate for like 18 years, immune to flying moves because gengar floats around. But come SWSH they gave his ass shadow tag instead iirc because, I assume, due to the whole gengar shadow lick trap magic he has going on suits him better aesthetically, and thus, Gengar lost his ground immunity. Does this mean Gengar can't levitate anymore? Not really, he just got an ability swap and in gameplay gets ****** even though in-universe he just floats above the ground attacks.

 

[Lynieryz]

People here are just acting like there are no pokemon that can fly that aren't flying type.

 

[Chariot190]

Not really? The difference is, that isn't the prominent method. Ignoring that, strawman. Also that's what levitate and other such abilities or for, or in some cases, why certain pokemon have the move fly. Unless you gonna argue that levitate grants secret flying energy to a pokemon... Same with a literal piece of inflatable plastic... Or that Gengar got purged from the confines of levitation... Among other things.

Actually counter the arguments, bringing up other points doesn't really change the fact that flying pokemon, in general, lose that immunity when grounded, and in some cases, pokemon GAIN a immunity when made airborne. Reflecting that "hey it's pretty obvious that you can become immune or effected by ground moves depending on if you're in the air or not", because that is quite literally what happens in numerous cases.

 

[Lynieryz]

This logic would only work if other pokemon that can fly (which are not flying types) were immune to ground attacks ex: a lot of dragon and psychic pokemon.

 

[Lynieryz]

Literally you would have to come up with some insane excuse to explain kyurem, reshiram, golurk and countless other pokemon that can fly not being immune to ground.

 

[Chariot190]

Dodged the argument. Ignoring just about every single Dragon type that can fly is part flying, or has levitate (like Flygon). Or that Psychic Pokemon, while they can levitate, don't have that as the default option (And if they DO levitate, they actually can dodge ground moves such as Rotom (Not saying rotom is psychic, just mentioning a levitate example).

And psychics? Yes actually, if the psychic pokemon uses psychic powers to become airborne, they will become immune to ground type moves. **** it also works on the opponent too, as the move telekinesis, a psychic move, that works by levitating the foe into the air to bypass accuracy checks so the foe can't dodge for 3 turns, has the detrimental effect of making them immune to ground type moves, as they're in the air, floating.

 

[Chariot190]

Literally you would have to come up with some insane excuse to explain kyurem, reshiram, golurk and countless other pokemon that can fly not being immune to the ground.

They aren't always in the air, as seen in multiple in game cutscenes even, when they are, like using fly, they're immune

And stop changing the argument, none of this is gonna change the fact. Argue the numerous moves, abilities and items that directly prove the OP, nitpicking a few outliers won't really supercede the existence of a metric fuckton of items, moves and abilities that's whole reason for existing is "become airborne/grounded, become immune/effected by ground as result".

 

[Lynieryz]

Dodged the argument. Ignoring just about every single Dragon type that can fly is part flying, or has levitate (like Flygon). Or that Psychic Pokemon, while they can levitate, don't have that as the default option (And if they DO levitate, they actually can dodge ground moves such as Rotom).

And psychics? Yes actually, if the psychic pokemon uses psychic powers to become airborne, they will become immune to ground type moves. **** it also works on the opponent too, as the move telekinesis, a psychic move, that works by levitating the foe into the air to bypass accuracy checks so the foe can't dodge for 3 turns, has the detrimental effect of making them immune to ground type moves, as their in the air, floating.

kyurem, reshiram,

 

[Chariot190]

I expect your next comment to be an actual rebuttal of the like 20 moves and items and what not that demonstrably proves the cause of the effect.

 

[Sniper670]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Flying type immunity to ground was not just game mechanics. Unfortunately I've still not found a single interaction of sorts in the anime

For instance, in anime Fairy types are really immune to Dragon Attacks and Ghosts are immune to normal/fighting attacks, disregarding inconsistencies.

If there's no actual showing of sorts, or are unfounded in anime/manga then I think it will make sense to just allow Flying Type immunity, going by game showings

 

[Chariot190]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Flying type immunity to ground was not just game mechanics. Unfortunately I've still not found a single interaction of sorts in the anime

For instance, in anime Fairy types are really immune to Dragon Attacks and Ghosts are immune to normal/fighting attacks, disregarding inconsistencies.

If there's no actual showing of sorts, or are unfounded in anime/manga then I think it will make sense to just allow Flying Type immunity, going by game showings

If we're bringing anime and manga into this, they make it pretty clear you can just dodge ground moves by going airborne. In one case a Rotom dodged a ground move by floating a whole 1mm off the ground in the manga.

 

[Antoniofer]

Literally you would have to come up with some insane excuse to explain kyurem, reshiram, golurk and countless other pokemon that can fly not being immune to ground.

By the same reason why kyurem, reshiram, golurk and countless other pkm that can fly are affected by attacks that explicitly are ground level such Earthquake, Magnitud, Toxice Spike, Arena Trap, etc. Its simply game mechanics not being accurate.

 

[Pikaman]

Ok I might respond to this stuff later, but I will say stick me as a neutral vote now because I’m gonna offer a compromise, this shit is so inconsistent that we will just endlessly go in circles finding different examples that benefit our own sides

 

[Antoniofer]

That's why I asked for scans. But for the time being everything lead to flying typing advantage over ground typing is due ground attacks being ground level unable to reach flying targets. There's simply no reason to believe that flying types are simply immune to mud and bone projectiles, or that powrs that ground pkm suddenly have immunety negation; at least, no proof in the games.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyways the following staff voted for these standards to initially be used, they should probably be contacted (I already contacted FinePoint on their wall seeing as they made the standards in the first place)

SamanPatou, Elizhaa, Colonel_Krukov, ElixirBlue, KingTempest, GyroNutz, Psychomaster35, DragonGamerZ913, Amelia_Lonelyheart, Antoniofer

@SamanPatou @Elizhaa @Colonel_Krukov @ElixirBlue @KingTempest @GyroNutz @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Antoniofer

I was asked to summon you here to help out.