Minor Maou CRT.

[Shmooply]

I share the same thoughts as Fuji here. Magic Eyes seem to be the verse's version of a magical catalyst more than anything else, are there any more examples or at least statements that people with Magical Eyes can use all of those abilities?

 

[BadSystems]

Anyway, the blog is cool and all, but the Enhanced Vision seems to really vary based on the skill of the user, and it's listed as a general ability. Maybe it would be better to split up its exact applications (Atomic Vision, Soul Vision, Telescopic Vision, etc.) into the different tiers of magic usage in the verse?

I'm not sure on the specifics as I watched first ten minutes of episode 1, but I don't think everyone in the verse should get the same standards of Enhanced Vision, even if they are listed with a less effective version of some of these applications like the atomic vision.

Just to add on to this, stuff like resistance to corruption, which is said on that blog to be specific to those with particularly strong magic resistance (Sasha in that case), is listed as a common ability under magic physiology. Why?

 

[Dereck03]

This back and forth is the pinnacle of pedantry. At most, I'd say it should be made clear that the extent of some of these abilities varies depending on the user. But the vast majority of what I can gather seems fine for the general additions.

Good.

Power Mimicry being general seems a bit iffy for me though. Do we have any other examples of it?

Let me gather scans.

But I will not prove common abilities that have been said to come from the origin that is Anos, since everyone can use them. See here for more examples.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Looks fine from a glance, but based on Fuji’s arguments, I think OP should improve justifications as to why certain abilities can be generalized into a given physiology/energy system.

 

[Planck69]

@Dereck03

I have another issue with the Abstract Existence (Type 1) for Gods. Do we have any confirmation that they are these concepts/laws rather than just embodying them physically (cause the latter is Type 2)?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I have some nitpicks...

The NPI part kinda assumes everyone can (normally) interact with sources, which isnt really true. Sources can only be affected through specific spells or when you have a tremendous advantage in AP over the enemy (which...could be a justification for it, just need to reword it)

As others noted, not everyone has atomic vision. People who were well versed in Creation Magic were flabbergasted when Anos used his microcospic vision to create a perfect replica of the city. It would be common for characters from the Mythical Age, however.

Disagree with Najila being used in the physiology page. Demons of the current age dont know about it, and it was a big deal even in the Mythical Age.

 

[Tatsumi504]

He never implied this.

Damn, Dereck's sentences are too complicated to understand. He specifically said, he would use this blog as verse physiology in the profiles (for example like bleach). And it is partially nonsensical to use the page if we got no profiles.

Oh that's alright then

You keep saying "everyone has this, everyone can do this", but you need to actually prove that. Do you have scans to support your claims?

You claim to have read the yet you're asking this. How about you just skip to common resistances in the blog;
Extrasensory perception, Enhanced Senses, Clairvoyance, Information Analysis (In the Mythical Age EVERYONE looked at everything with their magic eyes, as such various spells were created to prevent this)
This is just a useless nitpick that's aggravating what is otherwise plain and simple. So many things there link back to each other. I didn't hours writing this to have to deal with this, that's all.

Quite amusing to assume I would vandalise a page.

It was a general plea to all participants, I wasn't referring to you specifically, vandals do exist after all.

<Zecht> was used by Emilia, Zepes and both Necron Sisters

Add Zeke, Eldmed, Nosgalia, Melheis, 7 Elder Demons, Gorloana, Graham, Fan Union etc to that list

Anyway, the blog is cool and all, but the Enhanced Vision seems to really vary based on the skill of the user, and it's listed as a general ability. Maybe it would be better to split up its exact applications (Atomic Vision, Soul Vision, Telescopic Vision, etc.) into the different tiers of magic usage in the verse?

I'm not sure on the specifics as I watched first ten minutes of episode 1, but I don't think everyone in the verse should get the same standards of Enhanced Vision, even if they are listed with a less effective version of some of these applications like the atomic vision.

It is something every magic eye is capable. Just because the greatest application so far was used as a justification doesn't mean every eye can do it on that level. It was even noted on the preamble that it depends on their power, skill. One of the scans even shows a user needing their eyes enhanced to be able to see on the atomic level.

Ya I think the justification is bad formulated. I agree with this.

It's already noted it depends on the user, there's nothing wrong with it

Power Mimicry being general seems a bit iffy for me though. Do we have any other examples of it?

Yeah, there are other examples. It was already noted most of it depends on the user. If you go to the section of power mimicry resistance for some spells being too complex, you'll see other examples and it again depends on the users skill, ability to analyze magic.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It's already noted it depends on the user, there's nothing wrong with it

Still bad formulated.

 

[BadSystems]

It is something every magic eye is capable. Just because the greatest application so far was used as a justification doesn't mean every eye can do it on that level. It was even noted on the preamble that it depends on their power, skill. One of the scans even shows a user needing their eyes enhanced to be able to see on the atomic level.

So, Enhanced Vision should be general, but the particular forms of it would be spread across the tiers?

 

[Dereck03]

@Dereck03

I have another issue with the Abstract Existence (Type 1) for Gods. Do we have any confirmation that they are these concepts/laws rather than just embodying them physically (cause the latter is Type 2)?

This has been questioned before here.

And the answer is that they are not only the embodyment, but they are the order itself as well and the laws.

 

[Dereck03]

I have some nitpicks...

The NPI part kinda assumes everyone can (normally) interact with sources, which isnt really true. Sources can only be affected through specific spells or when you have a tremendous advantage in AP over the enemy (which...could be a justification for it, just need to reword it)

Sure, let's see how we can reword it.

As others noted, not everyone has atomic vision. People who were well versed in Creation Magic were flabbergasted when Anos used his microcospic vision to create a perfect replica of the city. It would be common for characters from the Mythical Age, however.

So mid-high tier demons.

Disagree with Najila being used in the physiology page. Demons of the current age dont know about it, and it was a big deal even in the Mythical Age.

Fine.

 

[Planck69]

This has been questioned before here.

And the answer is that they are not only the embodyment, but they are the order itself as well and the laws.

Hm, alright then.

 

[Georredannea15]

And the answer is that they are not only the embodyment, but they are the order itself as well and the laws.

Btw if you incorporate concepts and laws into your own body or embody them and become their embodiment, you become type 2 AE.

Or if you become these abstractions themselves in a physical self

 

[Dereck03]

Let me gather scans.

@Planck69
Here
To add to the OP's scan, the same user copied a circle and that allowed the other characters to make a copy of it.

And in the second image Eldmed shows the students the Gatom formula for them to copy and use.

 

[SYPHe5D]

This has been questioned before here.

And the answer is that they are not only the embodyment, but they are the order itself as well and the laws.

I think you should edit the justification a bit then, to avoid any future confusion.

 

[Dereck03]

Btw if you incorporate concepts and laws into your own body or embody them and become their embodiment, you become type 2 AE.

Or if you become these abstractions themselves in a physical self

Proof that they are incorporating Concepts and Laws into their body?

Already showeed that they are order itself rather than just an embodiment.

 

[Georredannea15]

I think you should edit the justification a bit then, to avoid any future confusion.

Yes, because the justification in the profile was very similar to type 2.

 

[Planck69]

@Planck69
Here
To add to the OP's scan, the same user copied a circle and that allowed the other characters to make a copy of it.

And in the second image Eldmed shows the students the Gatom formula for them to copy and use.

If that's the case then it should be fine. I do suggest making a more robust explanation and adding more scans. Since I can see how it can be confusing when the standard example is the one of the strongest beings in the setting.

 

[Dereck03]

If that's the case then it should be fine. I do suggest making a more robust explanation and adding more scans. Since I can see how it can be confusing when the standard example is the one of the strongest beings in the setting.

Yah, the thing is that i didn't do the sandbox myself but i can reword it.

 

[Dereck03]

Okay, i'll make the rewords, tho this may take a bit of time so be patient guys.

 

[Georredannea15]

Proof that they are incorporating Concepts and Laws into their body?

If you incorporate these abstractions in your body or concretize them in your body, isn't that type 2?

Basically type 1 AE is to become these abstractions themselves without concretizing them or putting them into your body.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you incorporate these abstractions in your body or concretize them in your body, isn't that type 2?

Basically type 1 AE is to become these abstractions themselves without concretizing them or putting them into your body.

He did not say that.

@Dereck03 You seems to speak some alien language but it is not coincidence that people constantly misinterpret you.

@Georredannea15 He asked you explicitly to prove that they incorporated these abstractions in their body to refute a literal narrative statement that they are orders themselves and the feats that happened afterwards.

If you can't prove this, then no reason to go for it.

 

[SYPHe5D]

If you incorporate these abstractions in your body or concretize them in your body, isn't that type 2?

Basically type 1 AE is to become these abstractions themselves without concretizing them or putting them into your body.

Let’s move on from the AE point, since he is rewording the justification for the gods having type 1 at the moment.

 

[Dereck03]

@Dereck03 You seems to speak some alien language but it is not coincidence that people constantly misinterpret you.

I'm talking the way i've always talked so idk.

So yeah, wait till i fix this.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Just to add on to this, stuff like resistance to corruption, which is said on that blog to be specific to those with particularly strong magic resistance (Sasha in that case), is listed as a common ability under magic physiology. Why?

It's not a matter of strong or weak. Magic resistance is something everyone has the potency of said resistance is a different matter

Finally, everytime a God speaks, they refer to themselves as their Order. No distinction is made. It is on the blog but Gods have no emotions because they're Order itself and because they are order, they cannot do what is not within the boundaries of that order. This is made clear numerous times.

So, Enhanced Vision should be general, but the particular forms of it would be spread across the tiers?

Not the particular forms but the extent to which it is used. Not every magic eye can see 10km away, not everyone's clairvoyance can observe locations thousands of kilometers away, not everyone's microvision is on the level of being able to see atoms, not everyone's info analysis let's them analyze something with hundreds of millions of magical text that required 2,000+ years to achieve.

Disagree with Najila being used in the physiology page. Demons of the current age dont know about it, and it was a big deal even in the Mythical Age.

Are you sure? That's a slip up on my part then cause magical age demons can hide their magic by some means which I noted. Whatever that means is, I guess it's not through najila

The NPI part kinda assumes everyone can (normally) interact with sources, which isnt really true. Sources can only be affected through specific spells or when you have a tremendous advantage in AP over the enemy (which...could be a justification for it, just need to reword it)

Interaction is different from affecting. It's already noted a certain amount of magic power is needed to do so also if you noticed, I didn't give CM as a general ability.

As others noted, not everyone has atomic vision. People who were well versed in Creation Magic were flabbergasted when Anos used his microcospic vision to create a perfect replica of the city. It would be common for characters from the Mythical Age, however.

Having microvision already covers that for seeing small objects. If the problem is about being able to see atoms, smaller particles specifically then I guess you could remove that. The appraiser at least could magnify his vision on a scale of 1:10,000, Misha before her eyes developed at all had no problem seeing it, Anos says Menou's eyes are already on that level which is why he could further enhance her eyes to differentiate between the same kind of matter.

 

[Georredannea15]

@Georredannea15 He asked you explicitly to prove that they incorporated these abstractions in their body to refute a literal narrative statement that they are orders themselves and the feats that happened afterwards.

If you can't prove this, then no reason to go for it.

Lmao i thought Dereck proved it and claimed that this is where AE type 1 came from. Or that's what I understood from his comment.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Disagree with Najila being used in the physiology page. Demons of the current age dont know about it, and it was a big deal even in the Mythical Age.

Are you sure? That's a slip up on my part then cause magical age demons can hide their magic by some means which I noted. Whatever that means is, I guess it's not through najila

About this, I checked and it seems less likely they don't know about Najila as the ability to hide magic is something that exists even in the Magical Age. It's more like they can't believe they can't detect anything at all (because without using magic, Anos sword should've shattered).

I'd also like to correct something else. It wasn't a big deal in the Mythical Age, Anos just said even a Demon from that Era would struggle to detect his magic so Magical Age Demons don't stand a chance at all. In other words, it's a matter of skill/proficiency.

Back on topic, other means to hide magic do exist as seen in the scan, whether that is through najila or not is unknown to me. Shin does have a spirit (his helmet) that does it, the same goes for Avos. Lay can do this as well but through source magic (I think it was called Naaz).

For now just move it into section for high tiers since that's where Mythical Era characters are but stealth mastery should still remain based on the ability to hide their magic power.

 

[Dereck03]

Okay, I have reworded AE, added more evidence to power mimicry as planck suggested, and removed Najila as Oblivion suggested, added a different scan to Zecht ability, removed the Source and Gods interaction for Magic.

As far as I can see there would only be the issue of the different types of Enhanced Vision, but I don't quite understand how to reword that.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Okay, I have reworded AE, added more evidence to power mimicry as planck suggested, and removed Najila as Oblivion suggested,

About this, I checked and it seems less likely they don't know about Najila as the ability to hide magic is something that exists even in the Magical Age. It's more like they can't believe they can't detect anything at all (because without using magic, Anos sword should've shattered).

I'd also like to correct something else. It wasn't a big deal in the Mythical Age, Anos just said even a Demon from that Era would struggle to detect his magic so Magical Age Demons don't stand a chance at all. In other words, it's a matter of skill/proficiency.

Back on topic, other means to hide magic do exist as seen in the scan, whether that is through najila or not is unknown to me. Shin does have a spirit (his helmet) that does it, the same goes for Avos. Lay can do this as well but through source magic (I think it was called Naaz).

For now just move it into section for high tiers since that's where Mythical Era characters are but stealth mastery should still remain based on the ability to hide their magic power.

removed the Source and Gods interaction for Magic.

Why? I already mentioned magic can interact with the source, whether said interaction leads to CM is a different matter but it doesn't change the fact that it can. Why was interaction with Gods removed as well?

As far as I can see there would only be the issue of the different types of Enhanced Vision, but I don't quite understand how to reword that.

Microvision can cover atomic vision which is where the current contention lies. Just add that certain characters who are proficient with magic eyes can achieve atomic vision (put atomic vision justification after)

 

[Dereck03]

Why? I already mentioned magic can interact with the source, whether said interaction leads to CM is a different matter but it doesn't change the fact that it can.

Interact with concept means conceptual manipulation or conceptual interaction, only Vebzud, Venuzdonoa, Gods or certain individuals can do that.

Why was interaction with Gods removed as well?

Because only certain individuals can interact with the gods and only the strongest or those with equal physiology, no Low to High tier demon or normal magic can interact with them.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Interact with concept means conceptual manipulation or conceptual interaction, only Vebzud, Venuzdonoa, Gods or certain individuals can do that.

No, interaction is different from CM. Anos Jio Graze could destroy sources depending on the amount of magic it had. A random demon sword Anos made pierced diego's source (interaction) but it didn't do anything because it had little magic power (no CM). Shin's shockwaves can destroy Lay's sources (CM), Eleonore can interact with sources, create them but not destroy them. Source magic is magic that manipulates the source (stuff like ingal, silica, lu ingal, naaz, gavuel etc). Diego was going to destroy Misha's source with a Teo Triath

Vebzud, Venuzdonoa are only needed when one intends to destroy sources. Vol 6 will have students fighting a part of their own source and they're all able to touch it

 

[Dereck03]

No, interaction is different from CM. Anos Jio Graze could destroy sources depending on the amount of magic it had. A random demon sword Anos made pierced diego's source (interaction) but it didn't do anything because it had little magic power (no CM). Shin's shockwaves can destroy Lay's sources (CM), Eleonore can interact with sources, create them but not destroy them. Source magic is magic that manipulates the source (stuff like ingal, silica, lu ingal, naaz, gavuel etc). Diego was going to destroy Misha's source with a Teo Triath

This seems to make sense, i'll re-add this then in a few.

Okay, I have reworded AE, added more evidence to power mimicry as planck suggested, and removed Najila as Oblivion suggested, added a different scan to Zecht ability, removed the Source and Gods interaction for Magic.

As far as I can see there would only be the issue of the different types of Enhanced Vision, but I don't quite understand how to reword that.

@Planck69 sorry for the ping, but mind checking the new Justifications and tell me what do you think?

 

[Planck69]

Reading Comprehension Devil strikes again

It looks good.

 

[Tatsumi504]

This seems to make sense, i'll re-add this then in a few.

What about the interaction with Gods? I can't remember seeing any argument for it's removal

 

[Guileal]

I agree, by the way I'm almost certain that it is mentioned that the Gods are timeless and immutable, perhaps this grants them acausality by default, but I don't remember the chapter in which this was mentioned.

 

[Dog3352]

I agree that MGK is giving too much work for the supporters of the verse itself.
And I agree with the CRT too.
I'm Brazilian and I play Mordekaiser.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I agree that MGK is giving too much work for the supporters of the verse itself.
And I agree with the CRT too.
I'm Brazilian and I play Mordekaiser.

Mordekaiser sending people to Brazil with his ult Should be canon ngl.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I agree

 

[Elizhaa]

The OP looks fine.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.