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Minor Gran Rey Cero Upgrade

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AnonymousBlank said:
Why are they scaling to the same numbers? We would just scale them to being stronger via the multipliers and everyone upscales from the 7 teratons.

Why would you say such a thing? Sayonara Bankai multipliers. It was cool having you while we did but Arc randomly wanted to watch the world burn more than Tier 2 Bleach could achieve.
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Well that’s the thing, there is no multiplier being used other than the 10x cero oscuras one. So in the end theyre still all Scaling to 7 teratons in every form lol

I take that back actually, Yammy does indeed scale to his x2 multiplier but that’s it
 
The way we treat multipliers in Bleach is ass dooky anyways (expect an Arc multiplier thread in a couple weeks/month), hence why I focused on the feat and scaling to said feat as opposed to multiplying everything, artificially inflating the calc.

But let’s focus on one thing at a time, the calc.
 
The only instance I assume vaporization for GRC is for characters who scale above Res Ulq. Due to Res Ulq’s CO vaporizing half of the dome of LN.
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Why would Ulquiorra's statement mean two different things depending on the user? Why would Ulquiorra's Gran Rey Cero pulverize in his base form and vaporize in his released form?

The amount of speculation that goes into making this work is what leads me to be against this method.

While you’re not inherently wrong here, this doesn’t address the core reasons why vaporization and pulverization were chosen. Yes destroying can mean many things, which is why further context is needed to decide what it means.
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Personally, I don't think we have enough context to make a good enough judgement of this.

If we had a statement like "There'd by no trace of Las Noches left" or "The Gran Rey Cero could vaporize the entire structure" then those are better straightforward statements.

The issue is we see CO vaporize like 1/4-1/5 of LN so we know a lesser Cero does have that sort of DC. Meanwhile GRC is the “ultimate Cero” that can destroy LN. clearly indicating it’s of that scale.
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Again though, vaporizing 1/5 of Las Noches doesn't guarantee it would be able to vaporize the whole thing. Ulquiorra's statement did not indicate there would be nothing left at all, or that vaporization of the entire structure would happen.

It seems pretty obvious from context that there'd be large-scale destruction if you fired a large-scale attack from the inside of the dome. But speculating further than that seems unwarranted.

We never actual see the explosion go off because Ichigo destroys the attack. So this isn’t really a fair point.
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I mentioned up above that I don't feel so strongly about this point, but if we wanted to extrapolate what would happen, then Grimmjow would presumably have punctured a hole in the dome. He would have "destroyed Las Noches" by damaging its structure. But he wouldn't have caused some kind of explosion that blows up the whole dome, and he wouldn't have vaporized/pulverized the entire structure.

EDIT: I am interested in seeing IMade's thoughts, and for any other staff member's thoughts.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Why would Ulquiorra's statement mean two different things depending on the user? Why would Ulquiorra's Gran Rey Cero pulverize in his base form and vaporize in his released form?
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Because he gets stronger when he releases. We don't assume that just because a Cero has shown vaporization for one character, it must be the same for every character.

Damage3245 said:
The amount of speculation that goes into making this work is what leads me to be against this method.
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It's quite literally 0 speculation regarding whether GRC vaporizes or not. GRC > CO > Cero -> Res Ulq's CO vaporizes -> Res Ulq's GRC > Res Ulq's CO -> Res Ulq's GRC vaporizes as it is more potent than his CO -> anyone who scales to or above Res Ulq follows that same logic, anyone below Res Ulq has no concrete evidence that their GRC can vaporize. ofc I'd love for all of them to apply vaporization

Damage3245 said:
Personally, I don't think we have enough context to make a good enough judgement of this.

If we had a statement like "There'd by no trace of Las Noches left" or "The Gran Rey Cero could vaporize the entire structure" then those are better straightforward statements.
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We can use deductive reasoning -> Res Ulq's CO vaporized a massive chunk of LN -> GRC is a more impressive Cero via statements from the manga and databook -> GRC can destroy all of LN -> insert my calc here. Again you're being nitpicky about your statements just like Gremmy's meteor, the whole "he doesn't tell us he'd vaporize 96.72563% of this structure, therefore we cannot calc it" is very poor reasoning.

It's super simple -> Res Ulq's CO can vaporize ~1/4 of LN (eyeballing it) -> GRC > CO -> GRC can destroy all of LN. Well if Res Ulq's CO can vape a sizeable chunk of LN, but his GRC (which is a stronger Cero) can destroy all of LN, logic reasons that it'd vape the entire castle.

Damage3245 said:
Again though, vaporizing 1/5 of Las Noches doesn't guarantee it would be able to vaporize the whole thing. Ulquiorra's statement did not indicate there would be nothing left at all, or that vaporization of the entire structure would happen.

It seems pretty obvious from context that there'd be large-scale destruction if you fired a large-scale attack from the inside of the dome. But speculating further than that seems unwarranted.
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Pretty much what I just said above. However, as you even imply yourself, CO being able to destroy a massive portion and being less impressive than GRC does in fact reason that GRC would be destruction on the scale of LN itself.

The next question that begs is, what methods of destruction? To which if CO, a less potent Cero can vaporize, then GRC should be able to as well (for characters >= Res Ulq). Next I scale down to pulverization for those who don't scale to Res Ulq, as it is the beneath that in the totem.

Damage3245 said:
I mentioned up above that I don't feel so strongly about this point, but if we wanted to extrapolate what would happen, then Grimmjow would presumably have punctured a hole in the dome. He would have "destroyed Las Noches" by damaging its structure. But he wouldn't have caused some kind of explosion that blows up the whole dome, and he wouldn't have vaporized/pulverized the entire structure.
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Grimmjow not destroying anything just means Ichigo blocked the brunt of the attack. As you said, it's not a strong point, because the attack never goes off, it's blocked. Thus this isn't an anti-feat at all.

Damage3245 said:
EDIT: I am interested in seeing IMade's thoughts, and for any other staff member's thoughts.
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Same
 
I’m agreeing with Damage on his points 100%

I think we should just stick with the calc we have and not try to assume all this pulverization and vaporization for things. Like seriously, somebody like Renji can vaporize things with his reiatsu but your saying Grimmjow can’t ? You’re completely appeasing the opposing side to try and make your calc work
 
Ok, here's my take, because we do not see the feat on screen and it is solely based on a statement, we cannot assume how Los Noches would be destroyed or how much of it would be pulverized, vaporized, etc.

When dealing with a unknown feat with a given size, we typically stick with the explosion method, so I still think we should use the current calc that is used
 
I think our vaporization calcs suck and we are too lenient with giving vaporization to many series.

Just because an attack vaporized one thing or made steam once does not mean it always vaporizes, Shonen and manga in general calcs get inflated a lot because of this and honestly I think a lot of series on VS are wanked because of this.

I don't support vaporization unless it was shown. The only thing that could be calced for vaporization is Ulquiorra shaving a side of the roof of Las Noches, we should not assume Gran Rey Cero would vaporize the whole thing, but I do agree that the GRC can be scaled above Cero Oscuras (an Espada's own GRC so not everyone scales to Ulquiorra's except the Espada stronger than him).

To get around this and get a value for the weaker Espada, I think pulverization is fine for an assumption on Las Noches' destructions.
 
The weaker espada already have a value for gran rey cero though, with a calc that’s already made and been accepted lol
 
I do think the espada’s CO could probably be implemented though instead of just the top 4. Like Grimmjow could be ‘High 6C, Low 6B with cero oscuras, higher with Desgarron’ but even that’s up for debate seeing as it never even hurt Ichigo unlike Ulquiorra’s CO did
 
I personally think vaping should apply since Ceros are reiatsu beams and we have seen people as weak as SS Chad vape, Renji going Bankai vapes, Hikotsu Taiho vapes, Ceros tend to vape etc but I can see why people would disagree without seeing a feat on screen.

My question about the relationship between CO and GRC is whether the x10 will be applied to the latter since GRC > CO?
 
As I understand it, Mitch’s and Damage’s issues with assuming something like vaporizing the whole structure is that because we never see the explosion it could potentially inflate the value. While I personally don’t see that as an issue given that GRC > CO and we see Ulq vaporize a good bit of LN with a CO that skimmed it, I understand the concern. So, I’ll concede to that.

My next question is then, what’s wrong with assuming a lower form of destruction, such as pulverization. Because in my opinion calcing the destruction of the structure is a better assumption than calcing an explosion one LN radius in size.
 
In principle, assuming pulverization of the whole structure isn't that different than assuming vaporization for the whole structure. In my original post, I object to both of them since outside of Ulquiorra's vague comment there's nothing pointing towards total destruction and it's impossible to judge the feat accurately since it never happened. I can't materialize objective proof that all of Las Noches couldn't be pulverized/vaporized/atomized but given an unknown feat like this, I'd prefer not to rely on it.

Mitch's comment seems to share the same issues I have with it.

If the issue is that the current calc isn't accurate enough to use then I have a suggestion for how we could rate it without relying on calcing it. If the Gran Rey Cero being at least a ten times greater amp to a regular Cero is consistent then we just rate it as being at least ten times higher than the Espada's ordinary Cero, by virtue of it being apparently superior to the Cero Oscuras.
 
I don’t think the current calc is bad I just think we can do better. What’re your thoughts on “violently fragmenting” the structure?
 
Damage3245 said:
If the issue is that the current calc isn't accurate enough to use then I have a suggestion for how we could rate it without relying on calcing it. If the Gran Rey Cero being at least a ten times greater amp to a regular Cero is consistent then we just rate it as being at least ten times higher than the Espada's ordinary Cero, by virtue of it being apparently superior to the Cero Oscuras.
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I think pulverization is reasonable given the destructive range and capacity we've seen of the Cero.

Cero Oscuras has pretty much the exact same description as Gran Rey Cero and GRC is the stronger of the two:

Sub Text Kanji: 一撃で一護の仮面を割るだけでなく、虚夜宮をも破壊する程の強力さ。

Translation: In a single blow Ichigo's mask is broken, it also has the power to destroy Las Noches.

With what we've seen of them, a calc using Violet Fragmentation and Pulverization should be fine at least.
 
Given that we see CO vaporize nearly 25% of LN by just grazing it plus the fact that GRC > CO, I feel it’s more than accurate to use violent fragmentation or pulverization for the structure (given we know it’s size) opposed to destroying an area of land of equivalent surface area.

Edit: I’d 100% agree with the “vague statement” argument the opposition is proposing if we had nothing to compare GRC to. I thought up an interesting proposal, more or less a variant of what I’ve said before: vaporization of the whole structure for characters who scale to or above Res Ulq (Res Ulq could vaporize a vast majority of LN with CO and his GRC > his CO), and everyone else that scales below gets violent fragmentation.

Im fairly adamant on characters who upscale Res Ulq getting vaporization of LN with GRC because we see Res Ulq vaporize a big portion via merely grazing LN. Lore wise you can argue that with the databook statement, Res Ulq could’ve vaporized all of LN if he purposefully aimed CO at it. It’s far too consistent.
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
Bump

Finished selling fire works
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Nice man, was it pretty busy? Cause I’ve been out and about all week but didn’t see a single soul at any fireworks stands. But last night people were setting them off like no tomorrow so they either had them stored up or I saw the stands at the worst times but I think it was both lol. But yeah I’d like to get this thread finished too
 
SilentBob34 said:
Nice man, was it pretty busy? Cause I’ve been out and about all week but didn’t see a single soul at any fireworks stands. But last night people were setting them off like no tomorrow so they either had them stored up or I saw the stands at the worst times but I think it was both lol. But yeah I’d like to get this thread finished too
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Bro I was working 17-20 hour shifts for the past 4 days, people were coming in to buy fireworks at 11pm July 4. Like bruh......
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Bro I was working 17-20 hour shifts for the past 4 days, people were coming in to buy fireworks at 11pm July 4. Like bruh......
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Dude that’s crazy😂 but honestly I believe it because the area I live around I feel like hasn’t been into the spirit of the holidays for the past couple years
 
It’s because not every state has legalized fireworks so I get people from across the country.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
It’s because not every state has legalized fireworks so I get people from across the country.
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Yoo that’s awesome lol. So if it’s cool to ask and I know it’s a lot, but what would the scaling look like for the lower espada’s and characters that scale to them if we ended up using the violent frag method?
 
SilentBob34 said:
Yoo that’s awesome lol. So if it’s cool to ask and I know it’s a lot, but what would the scaling look like for the lower espada’s and characters that scale to them if we ended up using the violent frag method?
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Pretty much the same but all High 6-C’s go to Low 6-B/6-B
 
Me bumping for days

Opposition is arguing the statement is too vague. Which is fair for characters who scale below Res Ulq.

However, Res Ulq vaporizes a large portion of LN with his CO, his CO is also stated to be able to destroy LN, GRC can destroy LN and is the ultimate Cero, Res Ulq's GRC > Res Ulq's CO. Because of that, vaporization of LN for GRC for characters who scale to or above Res Ulq is very logical, considering Res Ulq's lesser Cero vaped a huge bit of LN.
 
his CO is also stated to be able to destroy LN
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I think I missed this statement. Where is it?

Also the vagueness for the method and scope of destruction applies to Ulquiorra too; we're not singling out weaker characters for that.
 
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