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Minor Dormammu Revision

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LordTracer

LordTracer

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VS Battles
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Really simple thing here, I’m proposing that Dormammu’s profile should note what exactly his “Classic” period is, which would be from his first appearance in Strange Tales #126 to Defenders Vol. 3 #5, where he was permanently (and drastically) depowered.
 
Shouldn't a Modern Dormammu profile being made, then?

Also, if he's low 1-A even while depowered...damn...
 
I plan on making a Modern Dormammu profile eventually, but there’s a couple of things I plan to do before that (like changing Modern Strange’s justifications and making Iron Man’s profile much better).
 
Yes. And if we have time after it I would like to complain about his regen.
 
This seems fine to me. Modern Dormammu is treated as a joke. This is not due to any official event though, just modern Marvel writers not having any respect for established continuity whatsoever.
 
Yes, of course. Tell me here when you are done.

Also, please do not mention any in-story downgrade in the profile page. That is not what happened. The writers simply completely stopped caring about continuity.
 
I edited the page, it can be locked again.

Although I disagree with the notion that Dormammu’s depowering was just writers not caring about continuity. That might be a part of it, but he was explicitly depowered by Umar during the Defenders run. She drained his power to the point that he could be harmed by the Hulk, and the 2006 databook supports this.

2986368-mh%202006%20eternity.jpg
 
Umar has been portrayed at roughly the same level as Dormammu afterwards, and he was even referred to have killed her off-screen for a while, so she had to apparently be resurrected by the wishing well in a Hulk story, and no mention has ever later been made that he is less powerful than previously.

The current batch of writers are simply constantly busy disrespecting, defiling, and retconning all the foundations that had been established before the early 2000s.
 
  • The profile should be called "Dormammu (Marvel Comics - Classic)". There clearly is a need to add "Marvel Comics" on the og version of a Marvel character's name as every non-Classic profile does so, so let's not think that writing "Classic" makes us unable to also add "Marvel Comics" there too.
  • His Higher-Dimensional Existence doesn't say why those higher dimensions are infinite times more complex than lower dimensions, and without it then that doesn't do the job.
  • His Higher-Dimensional Manipulation is straight up wrong, the damage made in his battle with Eternity was called a transdimensional holocaust and that can far, far more easily mean things like they being in another dimension/universe and thereby the damage being transdimensional, or 1 or the 2 beings are otherworldly and thereby the damage being transdimensional.
  • His regen is weird;
  • What the heck is even his "essence"? His body and soul? If so then why is having that shattered gives Low-Godly? That should just give the same as having one's body shattered.
  • He didn't regenerate, he had "just enough strength left" to talk to his Mindless Ones, tell them to attack Earth, and just like that he fooled Reed Richards into using a device that would funnel power through every dimensional plane until finding the Faltine Dimension and create an echo that pulled Mindless Ones back at it, which also pulled Dormammu's essences into one place so that they might rejoin and become one, which is stated Dorm couldn't do on its own (The Amazing Spider-Man issues 498 & 499). Then they pretty much went back in time to undo this and later Dorm somehow came back in some comic I'm not aware of, with some handbook pretty much stating that he somehow came back from that, which creates issues;
  • If there is no reason as to why he came back then we shouldn't give him regen via doing so, he's outright stated to be unable to do so. Even if this was a legit power he has then we have to write how it's over time.
  • For the stuff before he should have Type 2 Immor. via talking to the Mindless Ones while with his essence scattered, if with him having "just enough strength left" to do so. And taking the wild guess that his scattered essence isn't a state where anyone would be able to talk and stuff.
  • His "Possibly Non-Corporeal" is also straight up wrong and cringy.
  • His AP makes me suspicious and could be fixed;
    • The Flames of Regency we claim prevented something that would destroy all universes when the text only says that it would threaten all known of them, threaten=/=destroying them all, it can cause unknown messes on all of them or destroy/simply messed up a limited number of them while the others could be get the same some day.
    • We claim Dorm threatened to destroy "the Dark Dimension" when the text only says "this entire world" while in the Dark Dimension. If I didn't know any better I would just think that they just meant the planet or planetary area around where they are in the Dark Dimension and not the Dark Dimension itself...but then the profile has the audacity to show us how the Dark Dimension has "worlds beyond counting", making nonsensical to "destroy a world" in a place with many worlds to mean and go as in "to destroy all the worlds!" next to it at best just meaning to destroy one universe aroundof the many it has.
    • The Dark Dimension wasn't said to have "worlds beyond counting" twice, that's the same page zoomed in & out. Silly profile.
    • Having fused "worlds beyond counting" over time and being able to destroy them all isn't even a 2-A feat. "Worlds beyond counting" is poetic and fusing 2 universes to make 1 doesn't make destroying that 1 2-C, it's still just the same as destroying one. It doesn't count the space between universes.
    • I get he has other solid scaling to be 2-A as he's above Mephisto and other Hell Lords and stuff, so those things should be in his profile.
 
Okay, could you really not make your own thread for all of that?
 
I believed this thread was done, if it isn't then that'll simply wait.
 
It is, but that doesn’t mean you can just make it about something completely different. Whatever.
Eficiente said:
The Dark Dimension wasn't said to have "worlds beyond counting" twice, that's the same page zoomed in & out. Silly profile.
Click to expand...
That’s not what the profile’s saying, it’s saying Dormammu has been stated to be capable of destroying the Dark Dimension twice.
Eficiente said:
Having fused "worlds beyond counting" over time and being able to destroy them all isn't even a 2-A feat. "Worlds beyond counting" is poetic and fusing 2 universes to make 1 doesn't make destroying that 1 2-C, it's still just the same as destroying one. It doesn't count the space between universes.
Click to expand...
Fusing them isn’t even part of his AP justification, where exactly are you getting that from?
Eficiente said:
The profile should be called "Dormammu (Marvel Comics - Classic)". There clearly is a need to add "Marvel Comics" on the og version of a Marvel character's name as every non-Classic profile does so, so let's not think that writing "Classic" makes us unable to also add "Marvel Comics" there too.
Click to expand...
Disagree, the profile’s current name is much cleaner, and I’m pretty sure leaving the ‘Marvel Comics’ out isn’t going to confuse anyone.
 
We always put the name of the verse after the name of the character, I don't see why this Classic and Modern characters just don't do this while getting away with not saying the verse but from which time in the verse they're from, they take for granted that everyone knows which from which verse. Even if it was more clear it is not what we should do, we should add Marvel Comics at least as a formality.

And no it isn't the most clear thing to do, if I was some random person I would very much dislike to find some character like Dorm as "Dormammu (Classic)" because it turns out how he was portrayed before it's not the same as how he is portrayed now which in turn turns out gives him the right to not have "Marvel Comics" after his name like any other easily findable Marvel character has. It's too much fricky info taken for granted for people to already know before/when finding the profile.
LordTracer said:
That’s not what the profile’s saying, it’s saying Dormammu has been stated to be capable of destroying the Dark Dimension twice.
Click to expand...
I see, the wording & linking of it is a bit off then, and the second time he did so can easily be taken as in his evil spreading to other universes in the multiverse, not the Dark Dimension.
LordTracer said:
Fusing them isn’t even part of his AP justification, where exactly are you getting that from?
Click to expand...
Just in case I added that.
 
Just a mention that Marvel does not currently seem to treat its verse as a hierarchy of higher infinities, but an early 1990s Doctor Strange story did mention that the multiverse was composed of them in conjunction with discussing higher dimensions.
 
Do we have a blog pointing this out for Marvel? As far as I can tell from old comics all this Dr. Strange foes from higher dimensions should not be tier 1 at all.
 
Ultima did the revision that brought Tier 1 Marvel and it has more stuff like Eternity seeing space-time as a narrative.
 
Well, one problem is that neither Marvel nor DC Comics currently treat their characters as being anywhere near that powerful.
 
I don't really see how Marvel ever has done that consistently like DC, are we sure that Doctor Strange story had its stuff to apply to the overall Marvel of that era and no that 1 comic or something?

Eternity I see being truly higher dimensional, but those Dr. Strange foes may just be as powerful without being higher dimensinal.
 
Well, Dormammu's classic statistics really seem to be of that level at their peak.

The main difference in terms of cosmology between classic and current Marvel is that classic Marvel defined its multiverse as an ascending hierarchy of infinities in an early 1990s Doctor Strange story, as well as the original Beyonder storyline, whereas Jonathan Hickman retconned it into just being a collection of universes that could be destroyed be bumping them into each other.

Al Ewing later increased that scale by defining some higher transcendant realms, but no infinite hierarchy of higher infinities has been re-established as far as I am aware..
 
Well, I'm sorry to say this but maybe we should have 3 eras for Marvel's cosmology, the one you say being in the middle and the first being how everything was portrayed in the 1960s. Comics from there have things like Nightmare having weird lacks of power for certain things and being hypnotized by a Dr. Strange without his magic powers, using his human abilities, and Dormammu seeing the Mindless Ones as a threat and most likely more anti-evidence if I were to look for it.

That said, let's first focus on the rest of the things I brought up unrelated to dimensionality.


@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg
 
Eficiente said:
Well, I'm sorry to say this but maybe we should have 3 eras for Marvel's cosmology, the one you say being in the middle and the first being how everything was portrayed in the 1960s. Comics from there have things like Nightmare having weird lacks of power for certain things and being hypnotized by a Dr. Strange without his magic powers, using his human abilities, and Dormammu seeing the Mindless Ones as a threat and most likely more anti-evidence if I were to look for it.

That said, let's first focus on the rest of the things I brought up unrelated to dimensionality.


@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg
Click to expand...
For the record Mindless Ones shouldn't be used as evidence for anyone's tier due to how much they vary, plus if I'm understanding what issues you're referring to (Stranger Tales ones) then he until fighting Strange could contain them himself, he just got tired from fighting Strange enough to where their constant ramming broke the force shield and Strange needed to team up with him to re-contain
Mindless Ones are mainly a threat because of sheer numbers and endless stamina
 
The profile should be renamed "Dormammu (Marvel Comics - Classic)" and unlocked so I may remove some things. I couldn't find a blog listing his scaling above other Hell Lords, does anyone know where to find that?
 
Maybe we should wait with renaming the profile page until we come up with a better title? "Marvel Comics - Classic" sounds kind of awkward.

Anyway, what else do you want to change in the page?
 
True enough. The page can probably remain named as it is then.
 
  • Remove his Higher-Dimensional Manipulation
  • Remove his regen
  • Remove his "Possibly Non-Corporeal"
  • Move and better word the first 2 sentence on his AP into his Feats
  • Add to his AP how he scales to other Hell Lords
 
He regenerated from being splattered across many different dimensions by Doctor Strange in a Spider-Man anniversary story by J.M. Straczynski, so he definitely has a high level of regeneration.
 
Eficiente said:
  • His regen is weird
    • What the heck is even his "essence"? His body and soul? If so then why is having that shattered gives Low-Godly? That should just give the same as having one's body shattered.
    • He didn't regenerate, he had "just enough strength left" to talk to his Mindless Ones, tell them to attack Earth, and just like that he fooled Reed Richards into using a device that would funnel power through every dimensional plane until finding the Faltine Dimension and create an echo that pulled Mindless Ones back at it, which also pulled Dormammu's essences into one place so that they might rejoin and become one, which is stated Dorm couldn't do on its own (The Amazing Spider-Man issues 498 & 499). Then they pretty much went back in time to undo this and later Dorm somehow came back in some comic I'm not aware of, with some handbook pretty much stating that he somehow came back from that, which creates issues;
    • If there is no reason as to why he came back then we shouldn't give him regen via doing so, he's outright stated to be unable to do so. Even if this was a legit power he has then we have to write how it's over time.
Click to expand...
Reed's device fixed Dorm, he doesn't have regen from that feat. The regen Strange had in the next issue is also wrong if one reads the page for it but I'll deal with it later.
 
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