Minecraft: Upgrade for Explosive Mobs

[Nemo212]

EDIT I: Blog post here.

EDIT II: See DeathstroketheHedgehog's post at the bottom of this thread for better destruction values, as they take dropping the block into account.

We have pulverization values for diamonds now. Diamond blocks have the same blast resistance as stone blocks (6). This means mobs that go boom get big upgrades. For future reference, one diamond block is one cubic meter, and 1000000 cubic centimeters. Our pulverization value for diamond is 110000 j/cc. We assume pulverization because nothing remains after.

Creeper: Creepers can take out 15 blocks of stone. Since diamond blocks have the same blast resistance value, creepers can also take out 15 diamond blocks. 15000000 x 110000 = 1650000000000 joules. Multi-City Block level (8-A).

Charged Creeper: Charged creepers can take out 33 blocks of stone. As evidenced above, they can also take out 33 diamond blocks. 33000000 x 110000 = 3630000000000 joules. Multi-City Block level (8-A).

Before we move on, don't scale things to Creeper explosions unless you know they can survive it point-blank on Hard difficulty. The official Minecraft wiki says that value is 24.5 hearts for normal creepers and 48.5 hearts for charged creepers. Nothing can survive that except for Elder Guardians (normal creepers only), Ravagers, Iron Golems, the Ender Dragon, Withers, and players with enchanted diamond armor.

End Crystal: End crystals have the same explosive strength as charged creepers. See above calculation. Multi-City Block level (8-A).

Ender Drago: The Ender Dragon doesn't blow up things, but it does pulverize every solid block it comes in contact with, save for a select few like end stone, obsidian, and bedrock. Diamond blocks are not one of these select few. Piggybacking off of Redite250's calc, we have a volume of 117000000 cc. 117000000 x 110000 = 12870000000000 joules. Small Town level (Low 7-C).

These last two are original research. I don't have a screen recorder, only screenshots, so test it out yourself if you need further confirmation.

Ghast: Ghasts can't blow up diamond blocks. They can blow up glass blocks, however, which have a blast resistance of 0.6. Glass has a pulverization value of 1000 j/cc. To test the limits of a ghast fireball, I made a superflat world made of 40 layers of glass and one layer of bedrock at the bottom for visibility, then went into Survival, spawned a ghast, and got it to fire at me several times. None of the craters it made were more than one block deep, and none of them took out more than nine blocks. I filled them in with red concrete powder for easy viewing. Observe the screenshot below.




Nine blocks of glass is 9000000 cc. 9000000 cc x 1000 = 9000000000 joules. Small Building level (9-A). If you can find a block with a blast resistance within a ghast fireball's limits, that also has a higher pulverization value than glass, let me know.

Wither: The screenshot directly below this is the aftermath of an underground Withersplosion on a superflat world made of 40 layers of diamond blocks. 61 blocks are missing in this pocket. 9 of them were needed to spawn the Wither, so 52 diamond blocks got blown up. 52000000 x 110000 = 5720000000000 joules. Small Town level (Low 7-C).




Blue wither skulls blow up obsidian, yes, but they do this by treating any block in their blast radius (save for deliberately unbreakable blocks like bedrock and barriers) like it has a blast resistance of 0.8. Ergo, it ignores durability to an extent.

tl;dr: both creeper keys and end crystals to 8-A, ghast to 9-A unless proven otherwise, ender dragon and wither to low 7-C

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

So does this mean that Creepers can destroy Diamond Blocks the same way they can destroy Stone Blocks? Because if so, then I can agree with these upgrades.

 

[Crabwhale]

Standard operating procedure would be to put these calcs in a blog post to be evaluated by calc group members properly before talking about applying them.

Nonetheless, while you still need to do that, this seems fine from a glance.

I would also like to take this moment to bring up the issue of Creeper explosion durability scaling: all of it needs to go. That is, all of it that isn't what you already listed in the thread.

 

[Nemo212]

Yes, they can.

@Crabwhale Whoops. Will do.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Like Crab said, you should still have these evaluated by the Calc Group. You can compile each of these in a single blog and send it to them.

 

[Nemo212]

Done and done. Also edited the OP to include the blog post.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The Lewd King Laughed

You are wrong.

"Before we move on, don't scale things to Creeper explosions unless you know they can survive it point-blank on Hard difficulty."

This isn't a thing, as mobs, regardless of difficulty, take damages from other mobs as if the difficulty was on Normal. And know that the damage listed on the Wiki is only the maximum, including proximity and difficulty. Meaning it isn't accurate to your scaling.

Indeed, if you pick up the game and test, you'll know that an Enderman, even at the highest difficulty, can survive a point blank explosion from a base Creeper. Ergo, an Enderman should scale to the 8-A.


Furhermore

Ghasts can hurt other mobs. No reasons why they wouldn't scale, regardless of the strength of their fireball.

Also


This piece of lore, written in an official Minecraft Book, written from an in-universe perspective, claims that a Creeper can kill a fully armored player. Essentially, this means that a Creeper canonically scales to a fully armored Steve. Who should scale to the Wither and Enderdragon.

And a much weaker Steve can still fight an Enderman. The same Steve who can still struggle with other monsters.


Essentially what I'm saying is that ignoring in-game scaling doesn't work here. And we should stop doing that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

To further elaborate:


The thing of ignoring scaling to "normal enemies" in games is because it usually contradicts with lore. Like say, a fodder minion fighting a game protagonist. And it works fine in most situations, because fodder are implicitly much weaker than the main guys (and we can sometimes see it directly in cutcenes).


But it should not be mindlessly applied to every games ever, especially when it's not supported at all. Here, there is absolutely no reasons to assume that, say, a fully armored Zombie is weaker than a fully armored Steve. Or that an Enderman can't be considered anywhere near close to the Ender Dragon in strength. Their status as Boss vs Normal enemy is arbitrary and has no reasons to affect their lore-strength.

And as I've proved above, this idea is directly contradicted by the lore. We have no reason to apply this here.

 

[Jinsye]

no

 

[Jinsye]

For real, I'm personally neutral on scaling mobs to bosses but I do agree with the explosion changes those are aight.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We'd need the calcs to be accapted before.

I'd wonder why the hell dimaond blocks are as durable as stone but hey I'm not the dev.

 

[DaSmileKat]

First of all, the Ender Dragon is already Low 7-C. 8-A creepers do seem reasonable, since the Ender Dragon can survive 4 blasts at point blank range from a normal creeper, and 2 from a charged creeper. The new Wither AP can't really be used, since it only applies to the explosion that the Wither creates when spawned. You should test the ghast fireball exploding inside the glass, not on the glass.

 

[RageComment]

Forgive my ignorance, but mobs in Minecraft can all harm each other, shouldn't that make them all relative to one another. Of course there is a hierarchy within that, but most of the mobs are comparable to each other right?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sorta against this. Even on the thread concerning destruction values diamonds were a subject of discourse, and by that I mean quite literally the only one that people questioned if it was even remotely workable for our method of doing calcs. That would be my sole issue with this, is that the presence of diamonds, which may not even have a workable value, wildly distorts the energy output we get.

 

[DaSmileKat]

They're obviously not comparable. The Ender Dragon kills silverfish, endermites, snow golems, tiny/medium slimes, and tiny/medium magma cubes in one hit. She can probably stomp thousands of them combined. They all can harm each other is only because Mojang didn't give most mobs Regenerationn for some reason. Why a, say, 8-C usually can't seem to harm a 7-A is actually because the 7-A regenerates whatever harm caused by the 8-C so fast that you can't even notice the 7-A had been harmed. The 8-C can cause the skin of the 7-A to be squished a tiny bit (maybe a micrometer?), and the skin bounces right back so fast that you can't even notice.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The calc needs to be accepted first before we start arguing over the upgrades it brings, after that's done I'll comment tho

 

[Nemo212]

Indeed, if you pick up the game and test, you'll know that an Enderman, even at the highest difficulty, can survive a point blank explosion from a base Creeper. Ergo, an Enderman should scale to the 8-A.

I just tested it on all three difficulties to make sure.

They cannot. I don't know where you're getting this information from, but I strongly implore you to retest it.

Also wasn't arguing that a creeper can't kill a player in diamond armor, they totally can. I tested it. However, our Endgame key to my knowledge has Steve in enchanted diamond armor IIRC, which he can survive a creeper explosion in.

Is scaling the only issue here? Kind of seems like it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@RageComment

That's what I'm saying.

The only reason why we would do otherwise is to treat such scaling as game mechanics. Which makes no sense if there is nothing in the lore that even remotely hints at this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Mate I tested that like three times in a row.

Creeper and Enderman in hole, blow one up.

 

[Nemo212]

Try it outside the hole maybe? I didn't have mine in one and the creeper was reliably able to kill the Enderman.

Maybe it's something with the blocks around it, I don't know.

 

[Nemo212]

Also, hostile mobs simply aren't comparable to the Ender Dragon or the Wither. Some of them can hit the Wither, but you need dozens of them, all aggro'd at once, to get past the Regenerationn. I'll detail my experiences with the Ender Dragon below.

The Ender Dragon has some sort of force field that prevents hostile mobs from getting close to it. If you go to the End and fight the dragon, you'll notice that over the course of the fight, it will piss off a few Enderman who will try to attack it.

I went to the End, took out all the crystals, and regenerated the Ender Dragon back to full health. Then I started experimenting with mobs. Endermen couldn't lay a finger on the Ender Dragon. They would try, but they would get pushed back and damaged whenever they got close.

Then I figured maybe it was a range issue, and spawned in a few skeletons. They weren't able to hit it, but they did retaliate against it. Then all hell broke loose because the skeletons started to fight each other, like they usually do when you spawn a lot of them in. So basically, failure.

I spawned in some ghasts next. They're pretty big targets, so the Ender Dragon would definitely hit a few and aggro them. The fireballs would then probably land on the Ender Dragon's hitbox and do some damage. Nope. The ghasts didn't do jack squat.

So Endermen didn't work. Skeletons didn't work. Ghasts didn't even try. Would Blazes?

I spawned in as many of them as I could without my computer breaking. The result was hell on Earth (or End, I suppose). The blazes did get aggro'd when the Ender Dragon hit them, and curiously, almost all of them got aggro'd at the same time. The End was quite literally, ablaze. Hundreds of fireballs, all aimed at the Ender Dragon.

Not a single hit. All of the Blazes were eventually killed. I have no idea how the Blazes could have missed, especially when the dragon was standing still, so my only explanation is that it must be immune to Blaze fireballs.

Does anyone have any bright ideas besides spawning in a Wither? I tried that, and it slowly chips away at the Ender Dragon, and gets distracted by Endermen often. But they're both boss mobs, and I'm trying to see if there's any normal monster comparable to the Ender Dragon.

@DaSmileKat Will test the Ghast fireballs again in a closed environment in a bit.

 

[Jinsye]

(The Ender Dragon doesn't take fire damage so Blazes really can't do jack shit

 

[Nemo212]

Yeah, but the fireballs themselves do 2.5 hearts of projectile damage. In a situation like this, I would have expected some fraction of the health bar to get chipped at.

 

[Jinsye]

I think the projectiles also count as fire damage, unlike arrows where it's just physical arrows with fire slapped on there. I don't think you can damage the Ender Dragon with fire charges either

 

[Nemo212]

Huh. Okay. That explains a lot.

I tried Phantoms, they can't get past the forcefield. Creepers are next, but I don't know if they'll retaliate.

EDIT: Creepers do get aggro'd! They can't get close enough to detonate on their own, though. When I spawned a bunch in the End Portal and detonated them manually, they were able to do some minor damage to it (can't get them point-blank because of the forcefield, and the fact that the Ender Dragon flies).

Vexes also can't get past the forcefield, they get pushed back forty or fifty blocks. Trying Ravagers next.

EDIT II: Ravagers didn't work. Tried Pillagers and they were actually able to fire at the Ender Dragon. Their arrows then deflected, and some of them caught fire. Looked it up, and it can't be hit with arrows when it's "perching." Am going to try the Drowned with tridents next.

 

[Nemo212]

Okay, maybe some of this should be added to the profile. I'm just going to review what's happened so far.

Blazes: Retaliated. No damage taken.

Creepers: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield. Manual detonations resulted in minor damage.

Drowned: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield. Thrown tridents were deflected and caught fire.

Endermen: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield.

Ghasts: Didn't try to retaliate.

Pillagers: Retaliated. Arrows were deflected and caught fire. No damage taken.

Phantoms: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield.

Shulkers: Retaliated, weren't stopped by forcefield. Projectiles did no damage.

Skeletons: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield. Didn't notice any arrows getting deflected or catching fire. Skeletons were more focused on killing each other than the dragon.

Snow Golems: Actively sought out the Ender Dragon. Stopped by forcefield. Low health makes them incredibly easy to kill, and they're either terrible aimers or nothing happened period.

Wolves: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield.

Wither: Retaliated. Was able to chip away at health slowly.

Vexes: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield.

Zombies: Tried to retaliate, stopped by forcefield.

To my knowledge, there are no hostile mobs that are comparable to the Ender Drago. None of them should scale to it.

 

[RageComment]

The Ender Dragon having a forcefield is new to me, but I haven't played Minecraft since before the Combat update, so idk.

 

[RageComment]

The Ender Dragon having a forcefield is new to me, but I haven't played Minecraft since before the Combat update, so idk.

 

[Nemo212]

It's not really like a forcefield in the traditional sense. I can go up to the dragon just fine. It applies to mobs. If I ride a horse up to it: dead in seconds. If I spawn zombies near it, knocked back.

I don't see anything about it on the wiki, strangely, but there's something there I overlooked and in retrospect probably shouldn't have.

"The dragon can take damage only from explosions and player based damage, and takes 1Ôüä4 normal damage when hit in any part that is not its head."

Which explains why manually detonating creepers caused damage, as did the Wither. Because literally nothing except explosions and player-based damage can harm it.

So in conclusion, the boss mobs are on a completely different level than regular monsters, and regular monsters shouldn't scale to them.

What else do we have left to take care of?

 

[Nemo212]

The new Wither AP can't really be used, since it only applies to the explosion that the Wither creates when spawned.

It can scale to Durability, though.

Do you want me to find the values for wither skull explosions? The black ones can't break diamond, but they can break glass. The blue ones can break diamond, but that's because they ignore durability, so I don't know where we'd go with that.

 

[Abstractions]

Are the diamond blocks being used the solid diamonds or the ones you mine from?

 

[Jinsye]

Solid diamond blocks, not ore.

 

[Abstractions]

Solid diamond blocks, not ore.

Just asking because it wasn't directly stated.

 

[Nemo212]

Alright, so black wither skulls actually have the same explosive value as ghast fireballs, so it would be the same value for glass. Tested it in-game, similar results. 9-A explosion.

Do we calc things that ignore durability? If so, I'll do it for blue wither skulls.

I'm still in favor of keeping the Wither at Low 7-C, though. I don't think it would be an issue to have the initial explosion serve as our peak value for AP. Maybe like, 9-A to 8-C (maybe higher if we do end up doing a calc with blue wither skulls and diamond block busting) with Wither Skulls, Low 7-C during initial explosion?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Isn't the wither comparable to the ender dragon? and can kill Iron Golems and Elder Guardians with his Wither Skulls?

 

[Nemo212]

Wither can kill Iron Golems and Elder Guardians, yes. Those are both 8-B at best, though, and in part due to the Wither effect which ignores durability.

Not really comparable to the Ender Dragon for reasons outlined earlier. It slowly chips away at the Ender Dragon's health since only explosion damage works and not the Wither effect or the projectile damage themselves, and if the Ender Dragon has End Crystal Regenerationn active, any damage taken is recovered in a matter of seconds.

The initial explosion is Low 7-C if this goes through, though.

 

[Jinsye]

Wither should probably still scale to the Dragon though, it has more of a reason to scale than the mobs.

It's considered to be a boss first off which makes it a similar status to the Ender Dragon in terms of threat value, and you're expected to have similar gear when you're fighting the Wither as the Ender Dragon.

 

[Nemo212]

Don't think it should scale at all, actually. It's closer to a charged creeper than an Ender Dragon, but the initial explosion still makes it Low 7-C on its own merit, so there's no reason to.

Just so you guys see my reasoning: charged creeper explosions are 3630000000000 joules. The initial Withersplosion is 5720000000000 joules. In that case, the Wither explosion is about 1.58 times that of a charged creeper.

The ender dragon's pulverization feat is 12870000000000 joules. That's 2.25 times that of a Wither, and about 3.55 times that of a charged creeper.

 

[Nemo212]

So I suppose the only thing left after this is getting this accepted. Think I've gone over everything else brought up in this thread. Except...

@Mr. Bambu The diamond pulverization value did get accepted though, no? I can see the issue with it, Ugarik brought it up on the blog post as well, but I think it's more like glass in that regard. Doesn't take a lot to shatter it (fragment/violently fragment), but takes a lot to pulverize it. And you didn't mention anyone having an issue with glass.

 

[Crabwhale]

"Ender Dragon regenerates with crystals"

So? How does that in anyway prove the Ender Dragon's superiority over it? Does that mean that in a battle without End Crystals the Wither is instantly superior because it's regenerative capabilities render it pretty much undefeatable by the Ender Dragon?