Minecraft hostile mobs downgrades

[EnnardTrap1987]

You may be wondering, "Ennard..Why do a content revision during lockdown?"

Well, I wanted to prepare for when lockdown is lifted. But i want to throw this revision thread in so that we can apply them on once its lifted, IF they are approved. But anyway, Minecraft Mobs downgrade..

Now, I think the mobs are all Building level via scaling to The Creeper. But, Creepers can't fight physically. And i'm pretty sure self-destruction is a power, not AP. And regular mobs can be easily killed by its explosion, even the Enderma. The Iron Golem is the only mob that is durable enough to survive an explosion from a Creeper, and armoured mobs too.

But in the end, The Creeper's only attack is a death wish, which is why The Creeper is one of the weakest 8-C on the wiki. As its ONLY attack results in killing itself. They are destructive, sure. But self-destruction is a power.

Most mobs scale to Zombie, who can shatter steel doors, making the hostile mobs, 9-B like Snow Golem. Sure, Snow Golems can't harm mobs (minus the Blaze). But they can still knock them a couple of meters away from the Snow Golem, the Golem's range alone gives mobs a hard time in a fight.

The only mobs that won't be downgraded, are the Wither and the Ender Drago. As they are capable of doing what their profiles imply. The Wither is far more destructive than The Creeper too, as it can make a crater in the ground by charging into it. The Wither and Ender Dragon can easily one shot the mobs i've listed, and i've seen that happen multiple times when i played the game, as well as other player experiences.

Even the Skeleton can be easily killed by Zombies. I remember a long time ago, i managed to get one Zombie to fight a Skeleton, with the Zombie being the one that came out on top.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

wouldn't they become 9-A via scaling to the Silverfish?

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

wouldn't they become 9-A via scaling to the Silverfish?

Perhaps. Creeper explosions seem 9-A via destruction. But that ain't an AP feat.

But i guess scaling to the Silverfish works.

 

[DaSmileKat]

How come creeper explosions aren't an AP feat? Anything that causes destruction by physical means are AP feats.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems to make sense.

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

How come creeper explosions aren't an AP feat? Anything that causes destruction by physical means are AP feats.

Isn't it a power/ability? (Unless you can count the explosion as Enviromental Destruction)

 

[DaSmileKat]

It is both a power/ability (self-destruction) and an AP feat, because the Creeper didn't magically vanish (or any non-physical means) the blocks it destroyed.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply what was suggested in the first post?

 

[DaSmileKat]

Well, I think it should be like this:

Wither and Late-Game Player scales to Ender Dragon.

Iron Golem, Elder Guardian, and Ravager scales to Creeper.

Enderman, Hoglin, Guardian, Mid-Game Player, and Shulker scales to Ghast fireballs, if that feat is any stronger than the Silverfish feat.

The rest scales to Silverfish.

 

[XitSign]

Not much of a Minecraft guy, but I did want to drop my hat into this.

Self destruction is an ability, yes, but an ability that has energy behind it, a lot of powers have APs. It destroys a certain amount of blocks, which can be used to determine how powerful the explosion itself is.

How it's scaled is up to the community for Minecraft, but the explosion shouldn't be disregarded as just one of the Creeper's abilities. Energy was behind how big the explosion is, certain characters can tank the damage, it's like an explosion in any other franchise.

 

[Jinsye]

...fairly sure everyone scales to the Heat of the Nether which vaporizes water upon being placed.

Thought heat is getting nuked, so.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask any staff members listed in the Minecraft verse page to comment here?

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

...fairly sure everyone scales to the Heat of the Nether which vaporizes water upon being placed.

Thought heat is getting nuked, so.

Not sure. Some mobs resist fire, some die upon falling into lava.

 

[GyroNutz]

Self-destruction is an AP based power, so it's fine to base AP off of it. Doesn't matter if that makes the Creeper a weak 8-C or not. And the Enderman can actually survive the Creeper's explosion; I've tested it a few times.

The argument with the nether heat is that the nether can instantly vaporize 7/8 of a cubic metre of water, so mobs who can simply walk around in the Nether (i.e. all but the Snow Golem) can tank that level of heat. Though some contradictions were brought up in the last Minecraft CRT, heat resistance feats aside.

I'm pretty sure Iron Golems, Ravagers, armoured mobs etc. can tank Charged Creeper explosions too, which are more powerful. Although Iron Golems can also put up a good fight against the Wither if there's a roof to stop it flying away, which is why they currently scale to the boss mobs (they also do more damage, for what it's worth).

 

[DaSmileKat]

Iron Golems and Ravagers is just barely able to survive Charged Creeper explosions, so that won't count as durability. On the other hand, the iron golem and ravager can survive two Creeper explosions at once.

 

[Antvasima]

@Gyro

So what should we do here?

 

[GyroNutz]

@DaSmile They can survive it quite well, the damage listed on the minecraft wiki is the theoretical maximum that an explosion can do which would never occur due to mob collisions.

@Ant Iron Golems, Ravagers, the durability of armoured mobs can all stay the same for now. The Enderman can stay 8-C, along with Creepers. All other mobs can upscale from the Silverfish.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[GyroNutz]

It's a fairly big change, I'd rather have some support first if it's gonna be applied.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to ask other staff members who are listed in the Minecraft verse page to comment here.

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

@DaSmile They can survive it quite well, the damage listed on the minecraft wiki is the theoretical maximum that an explosion can do which would never occur due to mob collisions.

@Ant Iron Golems, Ravagers, the durability of armoured mobs can all stay the same for now. The Enderman can stay 8-C, along with Creepers. All other mobs can upscale from the Silverfish.

Tbh, I wouldn't mind this change.

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

So, every mob except Creeper and Enderman are being downgraded to 9-A FRA

 

[DaSmileKat]

@Gyro The maximum possible damage can happen, if both mobs fall into a hole just big enough to fit the bigger of them. Then Minecraft can't do anything to force the mobs out of each other.

 

[GyroNutz]

No, trust me, they can't. I've tested that same scenario, as well as sticking them on one block in the middle of air, yet the Creeper never attacks with maximum possible damage. Only if mob collisions were off could that actually theoretically happen.

 

[DaSmileKat]

Hmm, then I suppose Charged Creeper can scale to Iron Golem, and maybe Ravager and Elder Guardian. Normal Creeper can scale to Enderman, closed Shulker, Mid-Game Player, and armored mobs. Are ghast fireballs any stronger than the silverfish feat? If yes, the zombie-tier mobs can scale to that, and the low tier (Endermite, Cave Spider, Spider, Slime, Magma Cube) scales to the Silverfish.

 

[GyroNutz]

I can test how destructive Ghast fireballs are, though wouldn't regular spiders be zombie tier?

 

[DaSmileKat]

Ghast fireballs probably do like 9 damage or so at point blank range. Zombies can survive 2 of those, while Spiders can only survive 1.

 

[GyroNutz]

I tested the strength of Ghast fireballs, first with a sandstone floor, then inside a sandstone box. For the floor I got 4, 6, 6, 7, 7 and 9 blocks destroyed, so an average of 6.67 blocks destroyed (or 7 by rounding) and a max of 9. In the sandstone box I had 11, 9, 9, 10, 9, 11 blocks destroyed, so an average of 9.833 blocks destroyed (or 10 by rounding) and a max of 11. Some sandstone blocks are dropped, so this isn't pulverization; it's either Fragmentation or Violent Fragmentation. Things like Iron Blocks, which have a higher blast resistance, can't be destroyed by Ghast fireballs.

Best value is 11 blocks for violent fragmentation, which is 0.2498 tons of tnt. So even with the best results it's just short of Building level. Worst value is 7 blocks for fragmentation, which is 0.0134 tons of tnt, less than the Silverfish's feat.

Btw Ghast's durability should scale to Silverfish rather than their own fireballs, since they get one shot by their fireballs.

 

[DaSmileKat]

The best results should be used, since it demonstrates the explosion's maximum potential. And what did you do for the box? The best way would be to /summon a ghast fireball into a large block of solid sandstone.

 

[GyroNutz]

I summoned an immobile ghast and got it to fire at me. Once I had six distinct craters I set the difficulty to peaceful and counted how many blocks were destroyed by each fireball.

Using the highest result seems fine. Though I neglected to mention that Violent Fragmentation for sandstone has a range of values. Not entirely sure if there's a specific reason for the range, but using the average destruction value (75.08 J/cc) it gets a result of 0.1974 tons of tnt, which is still Small Building level+.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Explosions are AP. But yeah your other points are valid, it tends to one-shot other creatures. But you can use powers/abilities to get AP. If your attack is heat manipulation, then you can feasibly get AP by that.

I'm fine with Gyro's overall assessment of necessary tier changes, it seems sane enough. And, yes, using the highest amount of blocks destroyed is fine. 9-A+ for higher end mobs, 8-C for top tier mobs, 9-A for common mobs. Armored mobs get 8-C dura. Makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

What Mr. Bambu accepted can probably be applied. Thank you for helping out.

 

[DaSmileKat]

After many tries, I was able to get the ghast fireball to destroy 12 blocks of sand (not sandstone). However, I was only able to destroy 2 blocks of sandstone.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gyro seems to have gotten 11. Gyro, you sure about this?

 

[GyroNutz]

Yes, I could record it if needed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Please do so, for safety's sake.

 

[GyroNutz]

https://youtu.be/HMwjyGe_f3U

I didn't get an 11 block crater, but I did get a 13 block crater which is even better. Still not sure how DaSmileKat got only 2 block craters.

This is most recent version (1.15.2) and on normal difficulty, dunno how much that matters.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. That is probably fine then.

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

Neat. We got this approved.

I'm giving all my thanks to Gyro for the help.

 

[GyroNutz]

Made this so the feat can be better explained on the profiles (also because it's technically a calc and needs approval). Once that's done we can edit the profiles.

Question: Should Steve's base durability scale too? He can technically take hits as well as most mobs, like Zombies and Skeletons.