Miku Izayoi VS Shokuhou Misaki

[Zhaoshuais]

Battlefield:discuss 4 different condition.

1´╝îone on one

2´╝îonly have ordinary people to control

3, Tokiwadai Middle School,with a lot of lv3-4 espers to be controled

4´╝îboth side can choose 5 characters who can be controled from their universe to join the battle with them.That means,they can prepare before the battle start(but limit to a small group)

 

[DontTalk]

1,2,3 is decided by who can brainwash the other first.

Misaki has some resistance to mind attacks, so I would assume she can not instantly be mind attacked. The fact that she has higher range plays in her favor here, together with the nature of her ability being direct control of the brain rather then hypnosis, meaning that her mind control would take priority when used on the same target.

So while Miku has advantage in reactions and physical strength, Misaki probably defeats her by button press, before any of that or the bystanders come into play.


Too lazy to read through all Date A life profiles, to make a decision on 4.

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't know much about Date A Live, so I'm going from Izayoi's page for this one.

Miku has better physical stats, can fly and boost her minions strength. But the important part of this match are their mind abilities, and Misaki easily outmatches her in that field. Miku can't manipulate memories or Free Will, which Misaki can do very casually to multiple people at once, plus Misaki has a wider array of mind skills to use, including illusions and resisting mind attacks while she's conscious.

Izayoi could win if she knew what she was facing and decided to not try to use her powers and use her physical superiority, but since Miku seems to be a manipulator firstand not a fighter, Misaki will win this right at the start by simply pressing a button on her controller as Miku starts to talk, freezing Miku in place/knocking her out/ordering her to kill herself/etc...

Misaki wins rounds 1, 2 and 3. Do you intend to have round 4 debated or is it like a bonus round for fun? Because it's impossible to debate since people will pick different fighters for each side. Plus, theoretically, Misaki can control people who would stomp all the spirits who have a page here.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Misaki cannot control lv5 espers or Touma,so round 4 is difficult for her,as Miku can control other spirits except Kurumi and Shidou.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

I should also point out that Misaki's ability is "human only".

 

[LazyHunter]

There's two Level 5 espers with confirmed immunity towards Misaki's power: Mikoto due to her passive electromagnetic field and new Kakine/Beetle 5 due to lacking a brain for her to manipulate. While Accelerator can be easily presumed to have a similar defense/resistance, as far as we know there's nothing preventing Misaki from controlling Mugino, Gunha (though he might just shrug it off because "guts", he's crazy like that) or other hypothetical Level 5s. She can also control Touma, it's just that the effects disappear if he touches his head, plus he might accidentally block if IB it's in the way.

But why would we choose Touma or a Level 5 to join her in the battle? There're people in the verse that are normal humans despite their strong powers (some of them are capable of stomping all Spirits) but with no apparent resistance towards Mind Manipulation of Misaki's level, and those who have it can be taken off guard while they're distracted. Heck, Vento on her own already wins this, just add Kuroko/Awaki/random Toaru Durability Negator to finish off KOed Spirits. If Misaki wants to be more overkill, then the the team would be something like this: Vento, Richard Brave, Acqua of the Back, Carissa, Brunhild. Vento knocks everyone out, others kill all 6 Spirits. In case Kotori is there, she'll have her regen nullified by Brunhild's runes before being finished off if she proves to be difficult to kill. Saint-level fighters are there to fight any Spirit in the improbable case they wake up.

Misaki's power works through the human brain and has only being shown to fail against animals, presumably due to their brains being too different. Robots and other things lacking a brain are obviously immune by default, but any being with a human-like brain, especially ones who are former humans like the Spirits, should be fair game, especially under verse equalization.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

We should notice that Spirits have a base magic resistance and higher base attribute,and that has been proved hard to be broken,otherwise DEM would not only caught one spirit before.So Vento may not able to knock spirit down,as Kurumi knock almost everyone in school down,but spirits can still take action.

And the problem is that Misaki does not know them at all.

Yes,if Touma himself does not block with IB,Misaki can control Touma.But in practise Touma can almost block perfectly.And considering Misaki caused damage to Touma's brain and regret for that,controling Touma would be an action which she will never attempt again.

For Gunha,it's clear that Misaki can do nothing to him,as when he messed up the oath of sport meeting,Misaki could only watch it happens.

Mugino's ability is similar with Misaka Mikoto,so it's doubtful that Misaki can control her or not.

Of course,if Accelerator opened reflection,Misaki can do nothing,but if Accelerator closed the electrode,it's possible that Misaki can control Accelerator,but there is still problem,as Accelerator's brain is incomplete now and may not able to receive and understand Misaki's command,and Misaka network would be able to interfere the control as it directly connected to Accelerator's brain and works as a part of it.

What's more,controling the character from Magic side would be great risk for espers´╝îas magic in To Aru can pollute human brains and cause damage on esper's body.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

If control characters from Magic side is allowed,then the easiest target is INDEX´╝îbut it's also clear that the most possible result is Misaki's body directly explode when she attempt to read Index's memory.

 

[LazyHunter]

Could you provide proof for Spirits being magic resistant? Because from the anime what I gathered is that humans are simply much weaker and lack hax, thus being confined to trying to contain Spirits while the best they can do is mildly annoy them. With the exception of some aces like Mana or Ellen, or special weapons the humans seem kind of useless when it comes to actually fighting the spirits. Also, being stronger doesn't mean anything when it comes to hax like Vento's. Leaving compatibilities with people who don't feel hostility, either you have a specific magic defense that nullifies global magic like hers, like Tsuchimikado or Touma, or you're out. If Spirits were affected by something as low level as Miku's power, I really doubt that they would be unaffected by Vento's Divine Punishment.

You said she couldn't control him. She can, even though Touma might dispel the effects afterward it's been proven that she can do it. But like I mentioned, irrelevan since there are stronger people to pick for her team, there's no value picking Touma. Wasn't confirmed, and Misaki was in public and probably wouldn't want to use her powers in front of such a big audience and cameras that would record her. Mugino's ability involves the manipulation of electrons, but has never displayed the same control over electromagnetism, bioelectricity or the passive EM field Mikoto has, so there's no proof she can resist it.

As for Accelerator, Misaki should be able to take control of the current Accelerator if she approached him while he is not in Esper Mode. Misaka Network interfering is pure especulation, so it can't be used as an argument. However, as I mentioned, Accelerator is not needed for the Toaru Team to easily win this battle.

That's not how magic-esper interaction works, and normal magic doesn't pollute your brain. And I didn't pick Index because the Toaru side doesn't need her to win, so I don't kow why you bring her up, she wouldn't really bring much to the table.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

As we use different language,it's hard for me to look up English version to find that part.

But spirits really have a base resistance,they are hard to deal with not only for the hax,but also for base attributes.

And it's clear that in To Aru,even normal magic is harmful to espers.

The reason why I pick Index is that if Misaki can get her memory,she would get all the magic knowledge she need,and unlocked Index has potential to become a new magic god,or at least should be above Carissa.But the problem is that Misaki's brain can not suffer that.For the magic knowledge in To Aru,you should know that Last Rune even caused damage to Kaori with only one sight,and there are a lot of such things in Index's memory,maybe also in the memory of other characters from magic side,so such attempt is very dangerous to espers.

And if we limited the team member should be known by Misaki before,then you would understand why I choose Index as example.It's not a good idea to let Misaki fly to London to control someone,as it's difficult to leave Acadmic City.

 

[LazyHunter]

Sorry, but unless you find a quote or any other proof of Spirits having a general magic resistance I'm going to believe what I saw in the anime and what the pages say here. From what I understand is very clear that regular Wizards are far weaker than Spirits, and that even attacking them on groups is mostly useless. That's true even for Spirits who don't have any hax whatsoever and just have a raw power advantage over them, like Tohka and Yoshino. Being unharmed or unbothered by much weaker magic attacks is not automatically a magic resistance feat. Unless magic resistance is given as the reason, it would be a Durability feat. And, if the magic of a weak Spirits such as Yoshino and Miku are effective against the others, strong Toaru magicians should have no issue, especially those who have more raw power than stronger Spirits.

We don't use future potential in this website, so Index having the possibility of becoming a Magic God is not relvant to a debate. Besides, there's no reason to pick Index when there are much better available team members around.

Again, you misunderstand basic Toaru stuff. So far there's no reason as to why controlling a magician would harm Misaki. What harms espers is actually refining mana and trying to use magic themselves.Normal magic knowledge doesn't pollute your brain or harm you, that's a fact, otherwise magicians wouldn't be a thing. What you're talking about is grimoire-level magic knowledge, and that's only in very limited stuff, not in all magician's brains, which instead have the watered down normal magic everyone uses. So no, unless Misaki tried to draw Index's memories or the Final Rune from Brunhild's brain, she would be perfectly okay.

You didn't give any restrictions to the group they could bring except "maximum 5 people from their universe", which would include the magic side people notn in AC; and "can control the characters with their powers", which includes all characters that I mentioned until they display good mental defenses in canon. Even if you change that now, Misaki still wins because she can still freeze in place/knock out the Spirits on her own wih the press of one button at the start of the fight. Then have Kuroko or Awaki kill them.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Sorry, but unless you find a quote or any other proof of Spirits having a general magic resistance I'm going to believe what I saw in the anime and what the pages say here. From what I understand is very clear that regular Wizards are far weaker than Spirits, and that even attacking them on groups is mostly useless. That's true even for Spirits who don't have any hax whatsoever and just have a raw power advantage over them, like Tohka and Yoshino. Being unharmed or unbothered by much weaker magic attacks is not automatically a magic resistance feat. Unless magic resistance is given as the reason, it would be a Durability feat. And, if the magic of a weak Spirits such as Yoshino and Miku are effective against the others, strong Toaru magicians should have no issue, especially those who have more raw power than stronger Spirits.
We don't use future potential in this website, so Index having the possibility of becoming a Magic God is not relvant to a debate. Besides, there's no reason to pick Index when there are much better available team members around.

Again, you misunderstand basic Toaru stuff. So far there's no reason as to why controlling a magician would harm Misaki. What harms espers is actually refining mana and trying to use magic themselves.Normal magic knowledge doesn't pollute your brain or harm you, that's a fact, otherwise magicians wouldn't be a thing. What you're talking about is grimoire-level magic knowledge, and that's only in very limited stuff, not in all magician's brains, which instead have the watered down normal magic everyone uses. So no, unless Misaki tried to draw Index's memories or the Final Rune from Brunhild's brain, she would be perfectly okay.

You didn't give any restrictions to the group they could bring except "maximum 5 people from their universe", which would include the magic side people notn in AC; and "can control the characters with their powers", which includes all characters that I mentioned until they display good mental defenses in canon. Even if you change that now, Misaki still wins because she can still freeze in place/knock out the Spirits on her own wih the press of one button at the start of the fight. Then have Kuroko or Awaki kill them.

Maybe.If Misaki's ability is considered as effective to spriits,then only Kurumi and Nia may cause problem to her,but both seems hard to be controled by Miku,either.

But it seems that spirits should be the higher level existances compared with lv5 espers or saints,as each of then represent a Sephira of Sephiroth,that can be deduced from angel's name and the hair colour.So I believe they should be at angel's class,one tier higher than To Aru's saints.

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't see a reason it would fail. Besides, Misaki's ability is much stronger than Miku's.

Not only is that pure especulation, you can't apply that kind of thing from universe to universe. A series can have higher existences like divinities that top at tier 8 or 7 while another can have humans that go to tier 5 or higher; so that kind of "higher existence" stuff holds no value as an argument unless it's about higher-dimensional entities. You have to use stats and abilities when comparing two characters, and looking at the Spirits pages, so far none of them is above Toaru Saints.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

I don't see a reason it would fail. Besides, Misaki's ability is much stronger than Miku's.
Not only is that pure especulation, you can't apply that kind of thing from universe to universe. A series can have higher existences like divinities that top at tier 8 or 7 while another can have humans that go to tier 5 or higher; so that kind of "higher existence" stuff holds no value as an argument unless it's about higher-dimensional entities. You have to use stats and abilities when comparing two characters, and looking at the Spirits pages, so far none of them is above Toaru Saints.

Nia,Kurumi and Natsumi can beat Toaru Saints easily.Extremely Nia and Kurumi,such ability is clearly not the ability that Toaru Saint or lv5 esper's level can obtain.(I think Kotori should also among them,as Toaru saint level would not able to kill her at all)And from Nia we know that spirits' age grow stops once they become spirits,such attribute in Toaru exists,but only start to apply for the existance between saints and magic gods.

We should also consider that Rinne Sonogami and Phantom should be one tier higher than other spirits,but they are clearly close to Magic gods level.

Considering their abilities have connection with angels,I believe they may be similar with Toaru's God's Right Seat.Maybe even better,as considering age grown stopped,they may slightly over the divide line between Gods and human,and Toaru saints&God's Right Seat should be silghtly below that line.

Yes,some series's god could be really weak,such as Konosuba,goddess Aqua who bring Kazuma Sato there,seems only tier 7.(but considering she and her goddess friend Eris can manipulate dead character's future,including heaven,hell or rebirth to other worlds,it's still not wise to offend her,and sadly,although Konosuba has the page here,their characters still do not have profile.)

 

[LazyHunter]

Sorry if I sound blunt, but...Have you actually compared the Saints and the Spirit pages? It's pretty clear that all Spirits are blitzed and oneshotted by a Saint-level fighter, much less Saint+ people like Brunhild with Gungnir, Carissa, Acqua of the Back, Knight Leader with Hrunting, Elzard and the Maiden of Versailles. It matters little if they have an interesting ability when they are much weaker, slower and in general lack experience and ruthlessness as fighters. All Saints should be able to kill Kotori, her Regenerationn is not that great if decapitation still works.

It says in Nia's page that her ability can't affect Shido when he uses the powers of the other Spirits, so as an ability that fails to affect people much stronger than yu, how would it begin to affect characters that are even stronger than Shido? As mentioned, Natsumi and Kurumi are killed before they can do anything. Plus, Kurumi's abilities are incredibly telegraphed, and her bullets need to hit the opponent to apply their effect, which is not going to happen with Saints.

Your comment about Spirits stopping their aging means little in this context, Type 1 Immortality is only useful in combat when someone tries to age you to death. It does nothing to stop Saints from stomping the Spirit. And no, there are multiple ways to retain your youth in Toaru, and they don't have to do anything with being stronger than a Saint. Magic Gods. Just because you have Type 1 Immortality doesn't mean you are stronger than Saints and/or close to Magic God leves, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Spritis being named after angels doesn't mean anything either, they are totally unconnected with the concept of God's Right Seat or Toaru's hierarchy of power, so I don't know why you keep repeating this point. As I already explained to you, so far the strongest Spirits are below Saints in power. Some of them have interesting abilities, but still nothing gamebreaking for Toaru.

As for Rinne and Phantom, going from what the wiki tells me about them, I highly doubt that they are anywhere close to that level of power, as nothing they have done so far approaches guys like Fiamma, much less Othinus, who is the weakest of Toaru's Magic Gods.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Sorry if I sound blunt, but...Have you actually compared the Saints and the Spirit pages? It's pretty clear that all Spirits are blitzed and oneshotted by a Saint-level fighter, much less Saint+ people like Brunhild with Gungnir, Carissa, Acqua of the Back, Knight Leader with Hrunting, Elzard and the Maiden of Versailles. It matters little if they have an interesting ability when they are much weaker, slower and in general lack experience and ruthlessness as fighters. All Saints should be able to kill Kotori, her Regenerationn is not that great if decapitation still works.
It says in Nia's page that her ability can't affect Shido when he uses the powers of the other Spirits, so as an ability that fails to affect people much stronger than yu, how would it begin to affect characters that are even stronger than Shido? As mentioned, Natsumi and Kurumi are killed before they can do anything. Plus, Kurumi's abilities are incredibly telegraphed, and her bullets need to hit the opponent to apply their effect, which is not going to happen with Saints.

Your comment about Spirits stopping their aging means little in this context, Type 1 Immortality is only useful in combat when someone tries to age you to death. It does nothing to stop Saints from stomping the Spirit. And no, there are multiple ways to retain your youth in Toaru, and they don't have to do anything with being stronger than a Saint. Magic Gods. Just because you have Type 1 Immortality doesn't mean you are stronger than Saints and/or close to Magic God leves, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Spritis being named after angels doesn't mean anything either, they are totally unconnected with the concept of God's Right Seat or Toaru's hierarchy of power, so I don't know why you keep repeating this point. As I already explained to you, so far the strongest Spirits are below Saints in power. Some of them have interesting abilities, but still nothing gamebreaking for Toaru.

As for Rinne and Phantom, going from what the wiki tells me about them, I highly doubt that they are anywhere close to that level of power, as nothing they have done so far approaches guys like Fiamma, much less Othinus, who is the weakest of Toaru's Magic Gods.

Natsumi can change herself into anything,so it's hard to find her.And it's hard to find out real Kurumi from a lot of them,either.So I have different opinion with you,that is,slower character can win faster one with right tactics,in my opinion,Natsumi and Kurumi can find a lot of ways to defeat Toaru's saints,although if you force them to melee face to face,they may lose.

 

[JBennett]

To aru's saints are more powerful then Spirites in DaL Kanzaki is easily 7A which easily outmaches even Tohka which is 'noted' as the most strongest Spirit currentlay introduced fully in the series(not including the First Spirit since their not yet introducd fully yet).

1 and 2 give Misaki the greates dissavantage since in a straight up fight she'll lose but in a battle of Mind Manipulation Misaki has the edge by a hugh margin just with Veriety and stregnth. 3 give Misaki an advantage since a lot of espers have the potential to damage Miku depending on the Level. In 4 Misaki has a lot more veriety in her series to chose as aposse to Miku, and many of Toaru characters could easily outmatch the Spirites and Wizards in Date.