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MHA: Verse Wide Revisions

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Kingofwolves999 said:
Also don’t say “I’ve noticed x about you” to me Damage. I have a lot I could say about what I’ve noticed about you and MHA crts. Leave personal talk out of this.
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Stop putting words in my mouth and I'll agree to that.

Every time I make a slightly negative comment about MHA characters or the scaling, you or others on these threads are like "Oh, so you want to downgrade the cast to 9-B, huh?"

I'm sick of it now.

I already said I don't care where the ratings end up now up above. I'm just addressing specific posts I see that are wrong or are being directed towards me.
 
I think Damage is just saying that's his perspective, but not actually what we usually go in the wiki, referring to the third law scaling to durability.
 
Damage3245 said:
Every time I make a slightly negative comment about MHA characters or the scaling, you or others on these threads are like "Oh, so you want to downgrade the cast to 9-B, huh?"

I'm sick of it now.

I already said I don't care where the ratings end up now up above. I'm just addressing specific posts I see that are wrong or are being directed towards me.
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Why did you edit and not just make a new post.

And that’s because you advocate for that literally every single time someone brings up the current scaling.

You don’t offer any new scaling or answer, you just say to remove whatever scaling we’re attempting to propose and not do anything else. We’re trying to fix multiple problems not just one with the ratings. You’re the one who somehow can’t see that and only sees the ratings.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
If you want to play this game, let’s play then.

Do you believe that Bakugo should be 9-B and not scale to his explosions.
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No, I do not believe Bakugo should be 9-B. No, I do not think he should scale fully to his explosions. I think what should actually be done isn't compatable with our system in its present state.

Do you believe that this is more powerful than this?

Kingofwolves999 said:
Why did you edit and not just make a new post.

And that’s because you advocate for that literally every single time someone brings up the current scaling.

You don’t offer any new scaling or answer, you just say to remove whatever scaling we’re attempting to propose and not do anything else. We’re trying to fix multiple problems not just one with the ratings. You’re the one who somehow can’t see that and only sees the ratings.
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I don't like spamming the thread with additional posts, but sometimes I realize I have something extra to say so I try to edit the original post ideally before the other person can see it. Doesn't always work out.
 
Sorry, seems like a missed a lot. Something about Bakugo's explosion not being the right size?

Attack Potency: "The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack." If Bakugo's smaller explosions have reason to hurt High 8-C level characters, such as himself and 8% Izuku. Then that means his smaller explosions due indeed scale. Just to a lower results.

Base Izuku lacks "feats", but the scaling he does have points to him being High 8-C as well.

Bakugo's throw is enhanced by his explosion, meaning it is superior to his normal strength output. Izuku can harm Todoroki with a headbutt, and the attack is shown to make him shake from the impact as well. Base Izuku very clearly knocks the wind out of Bakugo. He even goes "URK...!!!"

Saying he might not actually be hurt is just speculation. His reaction to the attack means he is hurt, unless we have reason to believe otherwise.

8-C feat from a 14 year old Bakugo, High 8-C feat for Bakugo in the festival, High 8-C+ feat for Bakugo in the exam (Bakugo can withstand explosions strong enough to destroy his gauntlets, which is actually small in size), 5% Izuku having a High 8-C dura feat, another 5% dura feat at High 8-C, High 8-C+ feat for Bakugo in Heroes Rising, and one more High 8-C+ feat for Bakugo in Two Heroes. High 8-C is very consistent for these characters in the verse. So that can't be the issue right?

Base Izuku harms this High 8-C character. He is stated to be weaker and is shown to be weaker. So we downscale him to 2.7 Tons, as we know he is superior to Monoma.

It is stated in universe that Bakugo is not holding back against Uraraka. And he isn't toying with her. Keeping Bakugo as hundreds of times stronger than Uraraka, spits in the face of the actual story. You'd be arguing against facts, no matter which way you look at it.

Bakugo's strongest blast are 8-B, and we have no reason to assume he'd use those. But his smaller blast have feats of hurting people who are High 8-C, such as himself multiple times. And people like 8% Izuku. Uraraka can take multiple of these blast. If Bakugo could regulate his power to make himself hundreds of times weaker. He could easily knock her out of the ring in one hit, without even harming her. A single blast and she'd go flying away.

AOE or Destruction output is irrelevant when we have feats. Yes, scaling is a feat. Character A hurts Character B, that is a clear feat. Character A has attack that is calculated at High 8-C, which scales to his durability. Character A is harmed by one of his own attacks, smaller and it doesn't cause a lot of damage, but it hurts him. The attack is still High 8-C, despite not having the destruction output as Character A's High 8-C attack.

This is clear scaling. The issue of Bakugo holding back like is being claimed, is that the story says he isn't holding back. In order to reject this, one must provide evidence that the above is wrong. Myself and others explained how AOE or blast size doesn't mean the attack still isn't High 8-C. Yes the attack isn't Bakugo's absolute best, the explosions are indeed weaker than 5 Tons. We aren't suggesting them to scale to the same power.

Weaker, but comparable. Why can't they be comparable but weaker? Can I see the evidence that supports them being that weak? Others and myself have posted evidence that even his weaker explosions are still able to hurt himself and other High 8-C people. Not by a lot, but still harms.

Lacking feats? They have scaling. Show something that proves the scaling is incorrect or shouldn't be used. Them just being High 8-C isn't the issue, there has to be a real issue. What issue exist that makes it so these characters cannot scale to High 8-C with their own feat called scaling?

I've posted feats (High 8-C stuff above), scaling (Base Izuku hurts Bakugo and Todoroki), and statements (5% being a small increase). Base Izuku, Uraraka, and Shinso are High 8-C. They're weaker, but not by a large amount compared to 5%. This scales to the Victory Bots, who are superior to Shinso and Base Izuku.

Students need to destroy the Victory Bots in order to be accepted into U.A. And even the weakest character Mineta, was shown to be able to survive a hit from the Villain Bots. Which is a feat for him. These characters do have feats, via having superior scaling.

Heck, a lot of them suddenly have direct scaling to High 8-C in just a few months. But Joint Training Arc period isn't that much stronger than the U.A. Beginning stuff. 5% and 8% are a small increase, stated by Izuku himself and is proven. Bakugo can take hits from both 5% and 8% with comparable damage. Clearly the jump is small.

Don't hesitate to tell me if I'm wrong about something, made a mistake, or have misunderstood something.
 
Just to reiterate, I'm not interested in continuing the discussion or wherever the ratings end up anymore. I'm at odds with too many MHA supporters to bring any likely change to the verse any time soon.

You'd be arguing against facts, no matter which way you look at it.
Click to expand...

I'll just say I agree to disagree. I think it's being looked at in completely the wrong way. And it's not solely due to a difference of interpretation, but in how we have to squeeze our interpretations into the VSBW framework which is too simplistic for my liking.
 
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I won't be able to read the whole thread right now but I think I can see myself agreeing with a Deku and Uraraka upgrade. Don't take this as admin support just yet, I still have to go through everything
 
Note: If there is issue with scaling to other people, who results shouldn't be so high. I'd prefer to separate that from the rest.

Izuku, Uraraka, and Shinso to High 8-C should be the current focus. Shinso can make Izuku bleed with a punch. The villains bots scale to Shinso, and are shown to block a kick from Iida without instantly being destroyed. Yes Iida can break them, but this means he can't just one shot them.

But if some students scaling to something is an issue, we can go over what to do about them here. Instead of dropping all of the scaling entirely. Other people having scaling issues shouldn't discredit them. But I'd like to focus on those three first, since they are the biggest one here.

Apologies if I sounded aggressive, and for missing what was stated above. I was just answering what I was reading.
 
@TheRustyOne if 8% is only a small increase over 5% then how would we rate base Deku?
Like We know base JT Arc Deku must be far stronger than Monama, just not enough to go to High 8-C+ (Unless you think he should)
So I’m more talking about VH Base Deku, where he’s strong enough to use a percentage far in the double digits (30%).
What I’m asking is if 5% and 8% are only small increases, shouldn’t Base VH Deku have caught up to them by now? (Especially because He’s rated as faster, at HS+, so 5-8% wouldn’t even speed him up)
 
I've already explained, he is 2.7 Tons (Unknown amount higher).

There is no reason to assume Base Izuku is equal to 5% or 8% currently either. Please let us not get side tracked here.

A small increase fits fine with 2.7 Tons Base, 5.1 Tons 5%, and 8.1 Tons 8%.
 
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TheRustyOne said:
Sorry, seems like a missed a lot. Something about Bakugo's explosion not being the right size?

Attack Potency: "The attack potency depends on the energy output of a single attack, not the area of effect of the attack." If Bakugo's smaller explosions have reason to hurt High 8-C level characters, such as himself and 8% Izuku. Then that means his smaller explosions due indeed scale. Just to a lower results.

Base Izuku lacks "feats", but the scaling he does have points to him being High 8-C as well.

Bakugo's throw is enhanced by his explosion, meaning it is superior to his normal strength output. Izuku can harm Todoroki with a headbutt, and the attack is shown to make him shake from the impact as well. Base Izuku very clearly knocks the wind out of Bakugo. He even goes "URK...!!!"

Saying he might not actually be hurt is just speculation. His reaction to the attack means he is hurt, unless we have reason to believe otherwise.

8-C feat from a 14 year old Bakugo, High 8-C feat for Bakugo in the festival, High 8-C+ feat for Bakugo in the exam (Bakugo can withstand explosions strong enough to destroy his gauntlets, which is actually small in size), 5% Izuku having a High 8-C dura feat, another 5% dura feat at High 8-C, High 8-C+ feat for Bakugo in Heroes Rising, and one more High 8-C+ feat for Bakugo in Two Heroes.
Click to expand...
Small question and correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t two Heroes scale to UA Beginnings Bakugou? Also the 10 tons feat isn’t on the profile so it should probably be put there if it’s accepted I almost made the mistake of thinking we were gonna scale that to 5%
 
Therefir said:
With several staff members and users in agreement, I think we should be able to apply this.
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Really? I was thinking there was more. Is @Andytrenom alright with this? I know he mentioned he may not agree with Bakugo's rating. But if that is a future issue or something else, I guess we can save it for later if he wants. Just want to make sure we aren't ending anything prematurely.
 
Acer__ said:
Small question and correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t two Heroes scale to UA Beginnings Bakugou? Also the 10 tons feat isn’t on the profile so it should probably be put there if it’s accepted I almost made the mistake of thinking we were gonna scale that to 5%
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Thar feat is for his absolute strongest explosions (He ends up holding his hand in pain), at best it would be supporting rating for his Howitzer which scales to something higher. However we aren't really using it, I was just bringing it up to show the High 8-C consistently for the verse as a whole.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Thar feat is for his absolute strongest explosions (He ends up holding his hand in pain), at best it would be supporting rating for his Howitzer which scales to something higher. However we aren't really using it, I was just bringing it up to show the High 8-C consistently for the verse as a whole.
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Oh Ok (ignore me then, Me Dumb)
 
TheRustyOne said:
Really? I was thinking there was more. Is @Andytrenom alright with this? I know he mentioned he may not agree with Bakugo's rating. But if that is a future issue or something else, I guess we can save it for later if he wants. Just want to make sure we aren't ending anything prematurely.
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I don't think Bakugou's normal explosions should scale to the last one he used again Ochako. Not just because it's bigger but because it hurts his hand to a greater extent implying it's a cut above the rest and completely nullified an attack that Ochako thought would take him out

I will let other people decide if this should be saved for later
 
Andytrenom said:
I don't think Bakugou's normal explosions should scale to the last one he used again Ochako. Not just because it's bigger but because it hurts his hand to a greater extent implying it's a cut above the rest and completely nullified an attack that Ochako thought would take him out

I will let other people decide if this should be saved for later
Click to expand...
I don't mind writing a change for that, actually it'd probably help with the scaling about his smaller blast too. Since we can separate them more clearly.

A slight downgrade, but Bakugo's physical will be scaling to harming Base Izuku and taking hits from him. Since the big blast he did seem to hurt his hands, him scaling to a lesser value for his durability would make sense. Would this be better in this case?

His smaller explosions would be scaling to Base Deku, while his bigger blast which hurts his hands will stay their current ratings. Since his fight with Izuku happened after the U.A. Beginning Saga, and he was stated to have gotten stronger. He shouldn't really have those feats in his first key. So I put them in his second key.
 
I have a question, for Deku's Tier section, should it be "High 8-C, High 8-C with 8%" or "High 8-C, higher with 8%"? I'm asking this because in the Attack Potency section it's written as "Large Building level, Large Building level+ with 8%".
 
Therefir said:
I have a question, for Deku's Tier section, should it be "High 8-C, High 8-C with 8%" or "High 8-C, higher with 8%"? I'm asking this because in the Attack Potency section it's written as "Large Building level, Large Building level+ with 8%".
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Probably higher I assume
 
TheRustyOne said:
I don't mind writing a change for that, actually it'd probably help with the scaling about his smaller blast too. Since we can separate them more clearly.

A slight downgrade, but Bakugo's physical will be scaling to harming Base Izuku and taking hits from him. Since the big blast he did seem to hurt his hands, him scaling to a lesser value for his durability would make sense. Would this be better in this case?

His smaller explosions would be scaling to Base Deku, while his bigger blast which hurts his hands will stay their current ratings. Since his fight with Izuku happened after the U.A. Beginning Saga, and he was stated to have gotten stronger. He shouldn't really have those feats in his first key. So I put them in his second key.
Click to expand...
Small Question
At some point did he attack Izuku and 5% with the small explosions? (pre-camp, where is the mention that her quirks haven't grown much).
If that's the case we could just scale her small explosions to this
 
In all honesty...

The proposed revisions at a glance would fix the scaling issues on the questionable scaling and tiering that are supposed to be present in the current profiles. The scaling itself makes sense logically and mathematically speaking.

But I understand what Damage is trying to say.
First and foremost, much of the inconsistencies reflect how feats are interpreted through the lens of AP ratings. The "scaling problem" is how many Joules apart X attack is from Y attack, and how that makes or does not make sense.
Considering how fictional works rarely abide by wiki standards when it comes to making feats consistent, it's up to chance for us to get desirable and consistent results from calculating said feats.

Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong, but Bakugo's explosions are calculated via a formula that takes size into account. So optically, it's problematic how we are inclined to assume that all of Bakugo's explosions, big or small, are High 8-C from an explosion calculation that involves size as an important factor. It may appear as we are being very selective of the importance of size for these kind of feats.

Thirdly, and now this is just my personal observation of the little inconsistent bits in the series, is with regards to Deku and OFA. Base Deku, prior to learning 5% use of OFA, never really tried to fight in base the same way he did using 5%. Despite the assumed fact, which although I find agreeable, that 5% is only a small increase from his base power. Deku relied on judo throws despite how he could comparatively fight the same way with 5% at base. Even if he can't do the acrobatics, he can punch or box at least and achieve similar results, right?
That right there is one of the causes that creates disbelief, as narratively we did not really get the impression that 5% is just a small increase from Deku's base stats, based on how he fought and acted, prior to later arcs where it has apparently been treated that it is in fact just a small increase. It's one of the reasons why we had 9-B base Deku vs 8-C 5% for so long in the first place.

TL;DR I agree in general with the revisions as it fixes a lot of things but I understand why there are problems being brought up with it. I also feel like there's really some slight retroactive canon in effect here and it's probably something that we must come to terms with.
Well, the revisions are probably in the process of being applied anyways, we'll just carry on and try to improve the pages over time.
 
This is true for almost every single AP feat in existence. We calculate that a punch destroyed a building or something, meaning that character has whatever AP right? But that character punches another character, who ends up flying into a wall but doesn't even break through the wall. But we know the first character didn't hold back, and we're told he didn't hold back. So what do we do here? We scale that character to the building destroying punch, because fiction can never be consistent with destruction. The attack being an explosion isn't any different, since both of those value relies on the size of something.

AP does not equal AOE or destructive output. Bakugo withstanding a explosion that destroys his gauntlets, yet the blast itself is smaller than any explosion his gauntlet has ever unleashed doesn't make sense in reality. But that is what happened, and should be useable.

A judo throw is stronger than a punch yes. But I don't see why him doing that on people like Bakugo, and those weaker than him like Shinso means much. Especially when he headbutt Todoroki hard enough to send him flying and had him shaking from the impact.

Of course I understand the concerns. And I feel somewhat bad that I can't do anything to alleviate those concerns, but I like to think I'm doing the best I currently can. I'm just glad to hear that what I've placed down is understandable and even logical in some places.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is the part I don't agree with in your interpretation.

You take "Bakugo isn't holding back" to mean "Bakugo isn't holding back his AP". And that's what I don't think is right here.
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That is not what I fully think. If it was I'd say Uraraka would be 5 Tons, but I'm only saying she scales to 2.7 Tons. So yes he is still holding back.

With a literal interpretation, Uraraka would be 8-B since Bakugo isn't holding back. What I'm saying is that he is taking her seriously. And him holding back hundreds of times is contradicted in the series. When his smaller blast can harm High 8-C characters such as himself and Base Izuku.

He can indeed one shot her with his strongest blast, but he likely has no way of controlling those and doesn't want to kill her for obvious reasons. So I don't see why his explosions against Uraraka would be any weaker than the blast which can hurt himself and Base Izuku.

Edit: Also that example, despite how it sounded, wasn't meant to compare Uraraka and Bakugo's thing. I only realized how it sounds now, but it was just a random example.
 
And him holding back hundreds of times is contradicted in the series. When his smaller blast can harm High 8-C characters such as himself and Base Izuku.
Click to expand...

Personally, I just wouldn't assume that this makes every smaller blast automatically High 8-C as well.
 
Damage3245 said:
Personally, I just wouldn't assume that this makes every smaller blast automatically High 8-C as well.
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And it seems I can't make you think otherwise. Of course I agree that not every single small blast would be High 8-C.

However I personally think, with the statements he has against Uraraka about him not holding back and seeing her as a worthy opponent. That him using hundreds of times less force than what he used against Base Izuku against her is unreasonable. I think the "assumption" those blast are comparable is fine.

But if Bakugo were to KO some random villains on the street. Unless they have scaling to something else, I'd say they aren't High 8-C in durability with just that.
 
TheRustyOne said:
The attack being an explosion isn't any different, since both of those value relies on the size of something.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying, but there are differences that make these feats distinct enough and be subjected to their individual, contextual scrutiny. Especially with how they are calculated. Say for example:
TheRustyOne said:
We calculate that a punch destroyed a building or something, meaning that character has whatever AP right? But that character punches another character, who ends up flying into a wall but doesn't even break through the wall.
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<<Calculating a structured destroyed by a punch>> is fundamentally different from <<calculating the size of an explosion, and through the formula rooted from scientific principles, a yield is acquired.>>

Many different factors can be taken into account for the first feat. Purely out of observation of your stated feat, it's scientifically possible that Character X simply absorbed most of the energy from the punch they took from Character Y, whose punch destroyed a building. Or in a more rudimentary comparison, this feat is centralized on <<things that are destroyed>> that is much closer to the AP vs DC duality that we have in this site and battleboarding in general.

Meanwhile, explosions are a lot simpler. It's just size, which is directly connected to the yield you will get in your calculations. It doesn't equate any outside factors, purely how big the explosions are. It is therefore easier to pick apart and criticize when we forego the core principle of how we get an explosion's yield by ignoring the factor of size.

They are indeed similar, as these feats are under the umbrella of the AoE fallacy that most battleboarding communities take as principle. But there is enough difference that I have taken into account before I pointed out the gripes with Bakugo's explosions.

The bottom line is, the reason we deviated from it is not because of the AoE fallacy but because of powerscaling, as through feats and statements presented in this CRT, using the AoE fallacy would be the best principle to apply to get to the what is perceived to be most sensical scaling amongst the characters.

TheRustyOne said:
A judo throw is stronger than a punch yes. But I don't see why him doing that on people like Bakugo, and those weaker than him like Shinso means much. Especially when he headbutt Todoroki hard enough to send him flying and had him shaking from the impact.
Click to expand...
Well yes, you missed the point. The issue is Izuku not relying on his High 8-C base striking strength just like how he does with his 5%, which is supposed to be a small increase from his base.
And when he does learn of 5%, he stops using judo throws altogether, which primarily uses technique and inertial movement instead of pure strength to defeat opponents that are even more powerful (aka the principle of using maximum efficiency with minimal effort).
Almost as if gaining control of 5% of OFA is seen as a significant stat boost enough for Deku to change his fighting style compared to his base where he has to rely on judo throws.

Which is why I mentioned that there may be slight retcons within MHA's writing (as a lot of power creep primarily happens later on), or maybe it's just inconsistencies and flawed writing.

TheRustyOne said:
Of course I understand the concerns. And I feel somewhat bad that I can't do anything to alleviate those concerns, but I like to think I'm doing the best I currently can. I'm just glad to hear that what I've placed down is understandable and even logical in some places.
Click to expand...
As someone working on a 6-B verse that barely has any 6-B feats, I understand and relate.
 
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