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So, I have some issues with the current verse pages. TBH, I'm against having a verse like this one on the site, but that's not for me to decide, and I can just ignore it. But if we are going to have pages, it's better for them be accurate.
As a disclaimer, I only played the games years ago with Paradox 1st Part more recently, but I definitely don't remember any feats past Tier 7, counting Erubetie's ultimate attack being an actual nuclear explosion created by using some of her body mass. And I distinctly remember the speed of sound in an attack being an apparent big deal when one of the ultimate chimeras, Amphisbaena, fights Erubetie. To be fair, neither are the fastest/strongest characters of their respective groups, but they are still able to fight those, so those cannot be too far away in terms of speed and power. (The Next Doll ultimate chimeras are comparable to the Four Heavenly Knights, who are comparable to Alice as they fought her for the Demon Lord Throne. Alice is comparable to Ilias, as the two had an inconclusive fight prior to the start of the first game. Both Alice and the Four Heavenly Knights are also comparable to Ilias in her Dark Goddess form as they are of significant help in the fight with her, with the Heavenly Knights tanking several blows for you and causing her actual damage like Alice does throughout the fight). The speeds given to Lime and Page 17 also seems suspicious because of this, as I don't remember any of those feats and no actual evidence of weak monsters like them doing so is presented on their pages or in the verse blog page.
But I could perfectly have forgotten some strong feats, so let's focus on the big issues here.
Lime
Lime is rated Town level for being able to fight early-game sealed Alice in Paradox. Now, the words of sealed Alice and sealed Ilias about their power should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are much, much weaker than before. Sealed Alice is of no help at all in the original trilogy for battles except for when she uses a spell that momentarily lets her regain her adult form for a single move per battle. When sealed Ilias tries to strike down Luka as he doubts her being his goddess, her bolt of retribution is completely harmless and only tickles early game, non-leveled, non-trained Luka, who at that point is only fighting slimes. The two fighting inside his inn fail to harm anything around them, simply pushing each other like children. While I'm not claiming they are weak, one shouldn't take their words at face value, given both are incredibly arrogant characters.
But this is secondary to the important thing here. Lime doesn't actually fight Alice or Ilias, she offers to join the party freely after you rescue her. Assuming her to be comparable to the mob slimes you fight in random encunters, yes, those slimes do hurt sealed Alice and Ilias. But that is clearly RPG mechanics, as far as I know we don't scale the mobs of an RPG to the protagonists just because they are able to harm them.
Page 17
Page 17, for those not knowledgeable in the verse, is a weak part 1 monster that is defeated by a barely trained Luka who hasn't got the first of the elementals (his biggest power ups). However, her page rates her as Universe level+, saying "Can manipulate and likely created her own personal universe inside the book, which has its own time flowing differently)".
Except the only thing we know about her "universe" is that it's inside the book she's possessing, she brings the humans she defeats into it and has a different flow of time. That's by definition a Pocket Dimension, and there's no evidence of its size except it being called "her universe" in the fan-translation, which could be just a way of saying "her world". Additionally, even if her pocket dimension were to be universe-sized, this does not correlates to her actual fighting power. In fact, the significant evidence against it (like the fact Luka can fight her and not be ridiculously stomped and the fact that much stronger monsters have not feats anywhere close to Tier 6 or 5) it shouldn't scale to her regular AP and Durability. It should then be trated like Sayuri Higuchi's Four Dimension Hands, it's pocket dimension hax.
Her speed sounds fishy, as she doesn't blitz Luka. She's simply too slippery (Those are the words used by Ilias if you lose to her) by his slower attacks at the time (Regular Attack and Demon Decapitation, a strong cut to the neck), so the battle forces Luka to use his Thunder Thrust technique, his fastest attack. Luka hasn't even met Sylph at that point, so even if Sylph's feat of blocking flashes of light is true, it would not necessarily apply to this Luka.
Apoptosis
While pages of them have not been made, I have to adress this before they are done.
And later is now. Basically put: The Chaos erodes space-time, the universe is not okay and it twists space-time to create said creature to fight back against the Chaos. High 3-A feats for those little creatures. And it means the previous 3-A feat is most likely 2-B now.
Apoptosis are creatures made of light and dark energy that are created by a parallel world when chaos starts to erode it to function as some kind of immune system. They are born by twisting space-time. The blog makes the assumption that this makes these basic monsters High-3A. We are all aware that space-time distortion/manipulation at low-scales like this is hax, not AP. Apoptosis are clearly not High-3A, nor is any monster stronger than them High-3A or Tier 2.
Paradox Speeds
Some characters are being put as Infinite or Immeasurable Speed. In the verse blog, the following claims are made.
Now this place. As shown before, the Chaos eats away space AND time, this place is prety much called "Chaos", it uses the same background as Hades and it exists between timelines. Thus it most likely exists outside time and space. Infinite Speed? Infinite Speed. Oh yeah Hades.
It gathers pieces of space time that has broken off. I'd say it's safe to assume it also exists outside time and space.
The various Tartaros in the world are large pits that act as holes in space-time that connect two different parallel worlds. Nothing is said of it not having space or time, they exist between two different parallel worlds. The assumption that Apoptosis, the monsters that spawn in them, are Infinite speed because of this has no actual evidence. The following statement even says that the place gathers the broken space-time from the paralle worlds, so it has some space-time. There's also no evidence for Infinite Speed for characters that walk through it, especially since this would heavily conflict with the speed those same characters display in the actual worlds.
We had the same issue with Aleister Crowley, who can act in the Hidden World of True Gremlin, but displays normal speed outside of it. Touma Kamijou and Othinus aren't given Infinite speed for moving in a blank universe because it contradicts their regular speed. Even it the Tartaros have no time-space it should simply be considered as the ability to function and move through a timeless void.
The timeline the Party access is 'from' a future point. Not only does this prove that the Chaos mess with both time and space, this means Luka basically walked to another point in time, physically. I'm not so sure how this works, but it does sound Immeasurable-y to me. Not only that, but Chaos clearly exists accross all of 'time', and basically existed before it. So it maybe scales to Luka walking in it.
Time Travel via what's effectively portal-like holes in time and space is not evidence of Immeasurable speed. Also bears repeating that, like with the claim for Infinite speed, characters do not display that kind of speed in the actual worlds, so they shouldn't be given those kinds of speeds. There's also an issue with the claim about Chaos that I'll adress next.
Chaos and Ilias
To start with, the verse does have a multiverse with infinite universes. But Chaos eroding it is not 2-A, and Ilias is not 2-A for being stated to be able to supress it.
First the chaos erosion of the worlds. This is not a quick process. When you arrive at the last world in Paradox 1, this is a world that has been under the erosion of chaos for quite a while. I don't remember if they give you a actual date for when you arrive, but La Croix gives you a date up to the year, which implies it was a long time, at least months and very likely several years. Enough time that monsters, angels and humans tried to organize themselves to fight it, failed, fled to the Administrator tower where they lasted for an unknown amount of time (at least days given all the beds for the tower's inhabitants) fighting, taking care of plants and copying books to leave something out of the world's history and their culture. The barrier slowed down the chaosization of the tower and its surroundings, but that was obviously not set up when the chaos erosion started and when it falls you still have enough time to talk to La Croix and flee the world before it entirely collapses. Chaos erosion cannot destroy a large tower and the surrouding landscape in an instant. It cannot destroy an entire country, continent, planet's surface or planet in an instant. And it cannot destroy an universe in an instant. It is a slow process, as we see in the game and by the fact that your world is already being affected by Chaos (thus the Tartarus pits and the Apoptosis appearing on them) and is still fine after thirty years. Thus, Chaos erosion doesn't even have Tier 6 power, let alone Tier 5, Tier 3 or Tier 2. The fact that it destroys space-time to return things to nothingness is meaningless. That's just hax, like all space-time shenanigans lower in scale than universal. It seems obvious, but since Chaos cannot even destroy a single universe in any reasonable amount of time, it's not a Tier 2 character.
Because of this, a character like Ilias being stated to be able to suppress or fight chaos erosion is also not Tier 2, and it should be considered to be just a special power they have, like Luka being able to travel to parallel worlds through the various Tartarus.
More importantly, in that last world La Croix gives an explanation of Chaos and its source, and it debunks some of the things claimed of Chaos in its page and in the blog.
"It turns out that this world didn`t follow the correct history. Somewhere in this history, the paradox occurred, and it turns every space and the world itself into chaos. Chaos is the nothingness. Both are the same thing. And the most significant paradox it seems originated from this other universe. The paradox from this other universe... it made a chain reaction that affected this world. And the whole parallel universes will collide with each other. Then, the whole of all universes will be devoured by the chaos... and what will be left is complete 'nothingness'."
The Chaosization phenomenon that's eroding the worlds was born when a time paradox happened in one of the worlds, thus starting the slow erosion into nothingness and the collapse of the entire multiverse. This phenomenon clearly doesn't predate the universe, it specifically originated long after the creation of the worlds and is unrelated to the "chaos" that existed prior to the creation of Light and Darkness, the nothingness that the multiverse will be eventually be reduced to. It's doesn't seem to be even a character or an abstract being any more than our gravity or entropy are, so IMO it shouldn't even have a page.
Also, for the "Conceptual Manipulation" claimed on its page. This apparenly comes from the moment you arrive into the last alternate world in Paradox 1, the one it's almost completely eroded away. All living things are confirmed to have already died in the world, the only remaining inhabitants are robots or undead monsters like La Croix. This confirms that the Sylph and Gnome of that universe, two of the elemental avatars of nature, are dead. Thus, when the Sylph and Gnome that are with the protagonist party say "I can't feel the power of my element" or "Are the wind and earth of this world dead?", the obvious explanation is that they can't feel their parallel elemental counterparts, thus the "wind and earth" are dead, they are no longer elemental forces of nature since their avatars are gone. The concepts of wind and earth should still be fine, especially since you are walking on actual earth in that world.
To sum up, there's no evidence of Tier 3 or 2 power nor there is of Infinite/Immeasurable speeds. There's also no evidence of Chaos being an actual being or existence that would warrant a page, and even if it did there's no evidence of it having conceptual manipulation.
As a disclaimer, I only played the games years ago with Paradox 1st Part more recently, but I definitely don't remember any feats past Tier 7, counting Erubetie's ultimate attack being an actual nuclear explosion created by using some of her body mass. And I distinctly remember the speed of sound in an attack being an apparent big deal when one of the ultimate chimeras, Amphisbaena, fights Erubetie. To be fair, neither are the fastest/strongest characters of their respective groups, but they are still able to fight those, so those cannot be too far away in terms of speed and power. (The Next Doll ultimate chimeras are comparable to the Four Heavenly Knights, who are comparable to Alice as they fought her for the Demon Lord Throne. Alice is comparable to Ilias, as the two had an inconclusive fight prior to the start of the first game. Both Alice and the Four Heavenly Knights are also comparable to Ilias in her Dark Goddess form as they are of significant help in the fight with her, with the Heavenly Knights tanking several blows for you and causing her actual damage like Alice does throughout the fight). The speeds given to Lime and Page 17 also seems suspicious because of this, as I don't remember any of those feats and no actual evidence of weak monsters like them doing so is presented on their pages or in the verse blog page.
But I could perfectly have forgotten some strong feats, so let's focus on the big issues here.
Lime
Lime is rated Town level for being able to fight early-game sealed Alice in Paradox. Now, the words of sealed Alice and sealed Ilias about their power should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are much, much weaker than before. Sealed Alice is of no help at all in the original trilogy for battles except for when she uses a spell that momentarily lets her regain her adult form for a single move per battle. When sealed Ilias tries to strike down Luka as he doubts her being his goddess, her bolt of retribution is completely harmless and only tickles early game, non-leveled, non-trained Luka, who at that point is only fighting slimes. The two fighting inside his inn fail to harm anything around them, simply pushing each other like children. While I'm not claiming they are weak, one shouldn't take their words at face value, given both are incredibly arrogant characters.
But this is secondary to the important thing here. Lime doesn't actually fight Alice or Ilias, she offers to join the party freely after you rescue her. Assuming her to be comparable to the mob slimes you fight in random encunters, yes, those slimes do hurt sealed Alice and Ilias. But that is clearly RPG mechanics, as far as I know we don't scale the mobs of an RPG to the protagonists just because they are able to harm them.
Page 17
Page 17, for those not knowledgeable in the verse, is a weak part 1 monster that is defeated by a barely trained Luka who hasn't got the first of the elementals (his biggest power ups). However, her page rates her as Universe level+, saying "Can manipulate and likely created her own personal universe inside the book, which has its own time flowing differently)".
Except the only thing we know about her "universe" is that it's inside the book she's possessing, she brings the humans she defeats into it and has a different flow of time. That's by definition a Pocket Dimension, and there's no evidence of its size except it being called "her universe" in the fan-translation, which could be just a way of saying "her world". Additionally, even if her pocket dimension were to be universe-sized, this does not correlates to her actual fighting power. In fact, the significant evidence against it (like the fact Luka can fight her and not be ridiculously stomped and the fact that much stronger monsters have not feats anywhere close to Tier 6 or 5) it shouldn't scale to her regular AP and Durability. It should then be trated like Sayuri Higuchi's Four Dimension Hands, it's pocket dimension hax.
Her speed sounds fishy, as she doesn't blitz Luka. She's simply too slippery (Those are the words used by Ilias if you lose to her) by his slower attacks at the time (Regular Attack and Demon Decapitation, a strong cut to the neck), so the battle forces Luka to use his Thunder Thrust technique, his fastest attack. Luka hasn't even met Sylph at that point, so even if Sylph's feat of blocking flashes of light is true, it would not necessarily apply to this Luka.
Apoptosis
While pages of them have not been made, I have to adress this before they are done.
And later is now. Basically put: The Chaos erodes space-time, the universe is not okay and it twists space-time to create said creature to fight back against the Chaos. High 3-A feats for those little creatures. And it means the previous 3-A feat is most likely 2-B now.
Apoptosis are creatures made of light and dark energy that are created by a parallel world when chaos starts to erode it to function as some kind of immune system. They are born by twisting space-time. The blog makes the assumption that this makes these basic monsters High-3A. We are all aware that space-time distortion/manipulation at low-scales like this is hax, not AP. Apoptosis are clearly not High-3A, nor is any monster stronger than them High-3A or Tier 2.
Paradox Speeds
Some characters are being put as Infinite or Immeasurable Speed. In the verse blog, the following claims are made.
Now this place. As shown before, the Chaos eats away space AND time, this place is prety much called "Chaos", it uses the same background as Hades and it exists between timelines. Thus it most likely exists outside time and space. Infinite Speed? Infinite Speed. Oh yeah Hades.
It gathers pieces of space time that has broken off. I'd say it's safe to assume it also exists outside time and space.
The various Tartaros in the world are large pits that act as holes in space-time that connect two different parallel worlds. Nothing is said of it not having space or time, they exist between two different parallel worlds. The assumption that Apoptosis, the monsters that spawn in them, are Infinite speed because of this has no actual evidence. The following statement even says that the place gathers the broken space-time from the paralle worlds, so it has some space-time. There's also no evidence for Infinite Speed for characters that walk through it, especially since this would heavily conflict with the speed those same characters display in the actual worlds.
We had the same issue with Aleister Crowley, who can act in the Hidden World of True Gremlin, but displays normal speed outside of it. Touma Kamijou and Othinus aren't given Infinite speed for moving in a blank universe because it contradicts their regular speed. Even it the Tartaros have no time-space it should simply be considered as the ability to function and move through a timeless void.
The timeline the Party access is 'from' a future point. Not only does this prove that the Chaos mess with both time and space, this means Luka basically walked to another point in time, physically. I'm not so sure how this works, but it does sound Immeasurable-y to me. Not only that, but Chaos clearly exists accross all of 'time', and basically existed before it. So it maybe scales to Luka walking in it.
Time Travel via what's effectively portal-like holes in time and space is not evidence of Immeasurable speed. Also bears repeating that, like with the claim for Infinite speed, characters do not display that kind of speed in the actual worlds, so they shouldn't be given those kinds of speeds. There's also an issue with the claim about Chaos that I'll adress next.
Chaos and Ilias
To start with, the verse does have a multiverse with infinite universes. But Chaos eroding it is not 2-A, and Ilias is not 2-A for being stated to be able to supress it.
First the chaos erosion of the worlds. This is not a quick process. When you arrive at the last world in Paradox 1, this is a world that has been under the erosion of chaos for quite a while. I don't remember if they give you a actual date for when you arrive, but La Croix gives you a date up to the year, which implies it was a long time, at least months and very likely several years. Enough time that monsters, angels and humans tried to organize themselves to fight it, failed, fled to the Administrator tower where they lasted for an unknown amount of time (at least days given all the beds for the tower's inhabitants) fighting, taking care of plants and copying books to leave something out of the world's history and their culture. The barrier slowed down the chaosization of the tower and its surroundings, but that was obviously not set up when the chaos erosion started and when it falls you still have enough time to talk to La Croix and flee the world before it entirely collapses. Chaos erosion cannot destroy a large tower and the surrouding landscape in an instant. It cannot destroy an entire country, continent, planet's surface or planet in an instant. And it cannot destroy an universe in an instant. It is a slow process, as we see in the game and by the fact that your world is already being affected by Chaos (thus the Tartarus pits and the Apoptosis appearing on them) and is still fine after thirty years. Thus, Chaos erosion doesn't even have Tier 6 power, let alone Tier 5, Tier 3 or Tier 2. The fact that it destroys space-time to return things to nothingness is meaningless. That's just hax, like all space-time shenanigans lower in scale than universal. It seems obvious, but since Chaos cannot even destroy a single universe in any reasonable amount of time, it's not a Tier 2 character.
Because of this, a character like Ilias being stated to be able to suppress or fight chaos erosion is also not Tier 2, and it should be considered to be just a special power they have, like Luka being able to travel to parallel worlds through the various Tartarus.
More importantly, in that last world La Croix gives an explanation of Chaos and its source, and it debunks some of the things claimed of Chaos in its page and in the blog.
"It turns out that this world didn`t follow the correct history. Somewhere in this history, the paradox occurred, and it turns every space and the world itself into chaos. Chaos is the nothingness. Both are the same thing. And the most significant paradox it seems originated from this other universe. The paradox from this other universe... it made a chain reaction that affected this world. And the whole parallel universes will collide with each other. Then, the whole of all universes will be devoured by the chaos... and what will be left is complete 'nothingness'."
The Chaosization phenomenon that's eroding the worlds was born when a time paradox happened in one of the worlds, thus starting the slow erosion into nothingness and the collapse of the entire multiverse. This phenomenon clearly doesn't predate the universe, it specifically originated long after the creation of the worlds and is unrelated to the "chaos" that existed prior to the creation of Light and Darkness, the nothingness that the multiverse will be eventually be reduced to. It's doesn't seem to be even a character or an abstract being any more than our gravity or entropy are, so IMO it shouldn't even have a page.
Also, for the "Conceptual Manipulation" claimed on its page. This apparenly comes from the moment you arrive into the last alternate world in Paradox 1, the one it's almost completely eroded away. All living things are confirmed to have already died in the world, the only remaining inhabitants are robots or undead monsters like La Croix. This confirms that the Sylph and Gnome of that universe, two of the elemental avatars of nature, are dead. Thus, when the Sylph and Gnome that are with the protagonist party say "I can't feel the power of my element" or "Are the wind and earth of this world dead?", the obvious explanation is that they can't feel their parallel elemental counterparts, thus the "wind and earth" are dead, they are no longer elemental forces of nature since their avatars are gone. The concepts of wind and earth should still be fine, especially since you are walking on actual earth in that world.
To sum up, there's no evidence of Tier 3 or 2 power nor there is of Infinite/Immeasurable speeds. There's also no evidence of Chaos being an actual being or existence that would warrant a page, and even if it did there's no evidence of it having conceptual manipulation.
