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MG; Physiology Page Discussion

ImmortalDread

ImmortalDread

Call me Dread
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VS Battles
Retired
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Introduction​

The primary objective of this thread is to collate and organize a comprehensive list of the standard abilities and resistances that exist within the Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha verse. Additionally, it is intended to serve as a resource for providing in-depth explanations of the various races within this verse, including both major and minor details. It is hoped that by compiling this information in a centralized location, we can alleviate the need for the inclusion of such information in individual character profiles, thus avoiding the potential for them to be cluttered with an excess of explanations, scans, and references.

We have introduced the standard abilities for:​

  1. Characters within the verse
  2. Gods
    1. Chief Gods
    2. Other Gods
    3. Gods of creation and destruction
    4. Guardian Gods
  3. Sovereigns (Conformists)
  4. Demons
  5. Spirits
And also, we have explained the terminologies used in the verse

The link to Sandbox (later, should be created as a page)​

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Gakuin_no_Futekigousha:_Characters_Physiology
 
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This content revision thread was created because it is known that I will be not online present for a period of six months (only at weekends, which I can barely work properly). Given these circumstances, it is important that this project is discussed among MG supporters and knowledgeable members in the community. In the event that there is no presence of mine during this time, this thread serves as a means of adding page content and conducting a comprehensive evaluation of the entire verse page.

It should be noted that this project is of considerable magnitude. However, it is hoped that @Dereck03 and @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless will be able to moderate it and keep it under control in my absence.
 
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May I ask?, why are there so many abilities that have no references?
 
Rendynoc0unter said:
May I ask?, why are there so many abilities that have no references?
Click to expand...
Should be discussed here between fellows, because I know they are lazy, but the abilities are legitimate.

Damn, I feel sad for not dealing this with Dereck, because I want to apply this in every page of the verse.
 
I'll take a deeper look at this when references start getting discussed, but for now, these things are wrong imo.

Social Influencing (God's are exalted and worshipped among Humans and Dragon Newts)

This isn't social influencing. We do not grant this ability based solely on social status, or else all gods, political figures, or what have you would have it.

High Godly Regeneration (Spirits can regenerate their bodies and sources as long as the rumors which gave birth to them are still passed down[2])

Nothing in the scans say they can regen their sources, this is just reliant immortality so you're getting mid-godly at best unless you can prove this says they can recover their sources.

Information Manipulation type 2 (spirits sources are formed from rumors and legends and they consume and replenish their source in order to use spirit magic[3][4])

This isn't really "manipulating" anything, since it's pretty common to expend some kind of energy source when using magic in any verse. But in those cases, we don't give manipulation of the energy they expend to whoever uses magic.

Abstract Existence type 1 (spirits are born from and embody rumors, lore, people's fear beliefs etc[3][5])

Merely embodying something is type 2 AE, not type 1. Are there any statements of spirits being composed of legends/rumors and not just created by them? If so, type 1 AE is fine.

Empowerment (By turning into their true body[6])

Not sure what implies a power increase here, doesn't seem like this scan has any relation to the ability/justification.

Resistance Negation (Gods abilities can only be resisted by other Gods[7])
Adaptation (Gods miracles cannot be prevented twice[7])

Adaptation doesn't apply to abilities and such, it'd be more appropriately indexed as reactive evolution or just an additional justification for resistance negation.

Like I said, I'll question other stuff once sources start getting added, but for now, these are my main issues.
 
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara keep in mind that I won't add agreements or disagreements because the main purpose of this project is
  • Is to add this page in verse page
  • Remove all relevant abilities and replace it with this page.
Which is a colossal project.

Tho, if you want to discuss the abilities, sure thing, but I am curtain most of them needs some rewording since all of them are accepted.
 
ImmortalDread said:
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara keep in mind that I won't add agreements or disagreements because the main purpose of this project is
  • Is to add this page in verse page
  • Remove all relevant abilities and replace it with this page.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this part I have no issue with. But I do think what exactly is going on the page should be discussed beforehand, especially since people will already be discussing the justifications used for most abilities. If the things I listed have better justifications, then it's for the best for me to bring up my problems now and have the page fixed rather than spend time making an entirely separate CRT that goes nowhere imo.

tbh im not even sure if you need a crt just for creating the page if it's all pre-existing abilities but i could be wrong
 
Sure thing, tho, it is your own right and I respect it. But tho, I can assure you that nothing is “added” on its own unless someone was adding something without my consent, but I tried to be reasonable and only add the accepted ones.

Tho, I agree with your concerns, those wording is wrong formulated. Thanks for notes.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
tbh im not even sure if you need a crt just for creating the page if it's all pre-existing abilities but i could be wrong
Click to expand...
The project is sizable and I will leave next week. I created this thread for discussion. Once all references are added, I hope UMR and Dereck take care of the verse adjustment.

But again, I am pretty sure (unless really someone added without my consent, but I trust my team) all of those are accepted before.
 
This is triggering my OCD...
9cf3978a00b64d55ae89a570105d9485.png

2e2213dd95e4d98f21be63fa830e6061.png

560c48fff704fc33718e6ffb33fbdb22.png
 
He does not mean like this, but the first screenshot is clear-cut mid Godly regeneration
 
Their body itself is made up information type 2 even without Regenerating the source they still needs to get HGR. Anyway I will let Tatsumi handle that
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
High Godly Regeneration (Spirits can regenerate their bodies and sources as long as the rumors which gave birth to them are still passed down[2])

Nothing in the scans say they can regen their sources, this is just reliant immortality so you're getting mid-godly at best unless you can prove this says they can recover their sources.
Click to expand...
In MG there's normal death and there's true death. Normal death is as implied while true death is source destruction. Normal death is always denoted by the use of "death" while source destruction is denoted by "perish", "destroyed". Having immortality 8 doesn't disqualify HGR either
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Merely embodying something is type 2 AE, not type 1. Are there any statements of spirits being composed of legends/rumors and not just created by them? If so, type 1 AE is fine.
Click to expand...
They are born from theses rumors like they literally just sprout into existence. The rumors don't create them as basically rumors can be anything be it gossip, fears, beliefs, stories, folklore. Once the rumor is widespread, a spirit based on it is born.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not sure what implies a power increase here, doesn't seem like this scan has any relation to the ability/justification
Click to expand...
Nah, it is. Since I'm the one who worked on spirits i can try to find a better scan but yes, by transforming into their true form, they basically become what the rumors are based on. There are spirits who are always in their true form like the "Great Spirit Reno" but the biggest examples are liniyon in the scan who transforms into a humongous water dragon and Misa iliorogue who is a spirit born of rumors about Anos and yes, she basically becomes like anos albeit weaker than him and can use every ability he can that isn't from his physiology.
 
Anyway, the wording is weird and needed to be reworded. Not everyone knows MG. @Tatsumi504 can you handle it?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This isn't really "manipulating" anything, since it's pretty common to expend some kind of energy source when using magic in any verse. But in those cases, we don't give manipulation of the energy they expend to whoever uses magic.
Click to expand...
That's not the point. Except the "Great Mother Spirit, Reno" and the "Great Spirit, Misa" who can use all spirit magic, each spirit has unique magic that's basically the manifestation of their rumors.
 
Anyway, everything here is accepted. Guys work on references smh.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Nah, it is. Since I'm the one who worked on spirits i can try to find a better scan but yes, by transforming into their true form, they basically become what the rumors are based on. There are spirits who are always in their true form like the "Great Spirit Reno" but the biggest examples are liniyon in the scan who transforms into a humongous water dragon and Misa iliorogue who is a spirit born of rumors about Anos and yes, she basically becomes like anos albeit weaker than him and can use every ability he can that isn't from his physiology.
Click to expand...
It was also shown in the anime, that linyon appeared as a little girl, but in her true form she became a water hydra.

Here it was shown.
 
You guys are going to have a big fun applying all this in every character (and you need to remove all relevant abilities)
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I'll get back to this after work but I still don't see evidence for the listed abilities
Click to expand...
Because we did not even add references to begin with. Also, honestly, I don't know if we discuss the accepted abilities, but I don't mind. Alright.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Because we did not even add references to begin with. Also, honestly, I don't know if we discuss the accepted abilities, but I don't mind. Alright.
Click to expand...
No, I meant the few abilities for spirits that did have scans that I questioned. I'll only go after stuff that actually has scans (or a super simple justification like the social influencing).
 
Alright but however, don't take the justification as literal, because there are some that need to be reworded properly ^^ :3
 
From “non-MG” perspective's view, it is mid godly. So yes, it is “wrong”. The information type 2 should be added to remove the confusion.
 
Don't worry, the project is gigantic, but I am pretty sure aware that even if those “abilities” are accepted, the rewording is still needed to fit the ability.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
In MG there's normal death and there's true death. Normal death is as implied while true death is source destruction. Normal death is always denoted by the use of "death" while source destruction is denoted by "perish", "destroyed". Having immortality 8 doesn't disqualify HGR either
Click to expand...
That feels like a massive assumption without much backing it up. Like, perish is literally just another word for death, if there are no feats or direct statements of source regen, you can't really argue for high-godly.

Tatsumi504 said:
That's not the point. Except the "Great Mother Spirit, Reno" and the "Great Spirit, Misa" who can use all spirit magic, each spirit has unique magic that's basically the manifestation of their rumors.
Click to expand...
Literally how is this info manipulation??

Tatsumi504 said:
They are born from theses rumors like they literally just sprout into existence. The rumors don't create them as basically rumors can be anything be it gossip, fears, beliefs, stories, folklore. Once the rumor is widespread, a spirit based on it is born.
Click to expand...
Being born from abstractions doesn't mean type 1 AE, it's just support for type 2. You need direct confirmation that these spirits are literally composed of these abstractions.

Tatsumi504 said:
Nah, it is. Since I'm the one who worked on spirits i can try to find a better scan but yes, by transforming into their true form, they basically become what the rumors are based on. There are spirits who are always in their true form like the "Great Spirit Reno" but the biggest examples are liniyon in the scan who transforms into a humongous water dragon and Misa iliorogue who is a spirit born of rumors about Anos and yes, she basically becomes like anos albeit weaker than him and can use every ability he can that isn't from his physiology.
Click to expand...
Transformation then, not empowerment. Empowerment requires an outside source granting you power, like Green Lanterns being powered up by willpower, this is just transforming into something else.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
That feels like a massive assumption without much backing it up. Like, perish is literally just another word for death, if there are no feats or direct statements of source regen, you can't really argue for high-godly.
Click to expand...
WN Chapter 120.
In mythological times, Averneyu, the god of destruction, was the cause of all death and destruction. That's why I overthrew it first.

All things are heading for destruction. That was the order of the God of Destruction, but because the Demon King took it away, the destruction of the world was stopped. Those who should have died did not die, and those who were supposed to perish did not perished.
Click to expand...
It always differentiates between normal death and source destruction/true death.
"Death" is used normally pertaining to normal death while "perish"/"destroy" refers to source destruction
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Being born from abstractions doesn't mean type 1 AE, it's just support for type 2. You need direct confirmation that these spirits are literally composed of these abstractions.
Click to expand...
Yes, they're composed of these abstractions. As they literally disappear if their rumors are lost or they go against them.
LN Vol 2. Ch. 22
“Her body...” Misa whispered.
Sheila’s body was so transparent, she looked as though she could vanish
at any moment. She showed no signs of waking—in fact, she had so little
vitality, she seemed as good as dead.
“Hmm. So this is spiritosis.”
Click to expand...
Spiritosis is a condition where a spirits rumors and lore are about to die out and as such, they disappear when their rumors do as there's nothing to form their existence.
LN Vol 2. Ch. 24
“I overheard someone talking
about it here—a doctor, I think. It’s called spiritosis, but it isn’t an actual
disease. They say that spirits are born from the heart—”
“I’m aware. Spirits are the realization of rumors, folklore, and legends—
the embodiment of hopes, fears, and desires.”
...
“Spirits are born from the hearts of
many, from their intense longing. That’s why they’re born as adults. But half
demon, half spirits are different. We’re part demon, so we’re born as babies.
Because of this, our spirit existences are infants as well. That’s what I
overhead.”
Hmm. I was starting to understand.
“In other words, newly sprouted rumors, weak desires, and vague
aspirations are what form the spirit halves of you.”
“That’s right. As half spirits grow, those hopes and rumors need to grow
with us.”
As time passed, the tales and feelings that had born a half spirit had to
mature. Only then could they live comfortably like Misa.
“Rumors are easily extinguished, and people give up on their hopes every
day. When those hopes die, the spirit halves of us die with them.
Click to expand...

WN Chapter 120
In the Great War two thousand years ago, the Demon King of Tyranny also fought God. Anos Voldigoad wanted a miracle of God that could overthrow order. The world was in turmoil. The demons died, Humans died and the spirits disappeared.
Click to expand...
WN Chapter 175.
Reno's body is about to disappear
...
Sh--"

The voice that Reno uttered disappeared quickly, without sounding a note.

Her roots, defying rumor and lore, are reaching their limits.
...
Reno's figure became transparent and disappeared completely.
Click to expand...
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Transformation then, not empowerment. Empowerment requires an outside source granting you power, like Green Lanterns being powered up by willpower, this is just transforming into something else.
Click to expand...
Noted. I'll change it
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Yes, they're composed of these abstractions. As they literally disappear if their rumors are lost or they go against them.


Spiritosis is a condition where a spirits rumors and lore are about to die out and as such, they disappear when their rumors do as there's nothing to form their existence.
Click to expand...
None of this says they're made of abstractions, just that they'll disappear if their rumors die out. Which, again, is just more evidence for type 2 AE. One of these quotes even directly says spirits are embodiments of these things, which is the most clear cut case of type 2 AE I've ever seen.

Tatsumi504 said:
WN Chapter 120.

It always differentiates between normal death and source destruction/true death.
"Death" is used normally pertaining to normal death while "perish"/"destroy" refers to source destruction
Click to expand...
My guy, you're taking "destruction", an incredibly broad term that applies to many different things, to very specifically mean "complete erasure of the fundamental concept of existence" which is SUCH a massive logical leap I don't even know where to begin. The kanji for "perish" also means to be ruined, destroyed, or just, y'know, die. Also, this very scan proves "destruction" does not universally refer to source erasure, because it says the world would have been destroyed. Do entire world's have individual sources in MG? If not, saying "destruction always equals source destruction" has 0 basis.

Also if nobody is going to defend info manip or social influencing they should just be removed.
 
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