Metroid V: To Infinity and Beyond

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Unintended double post but this is a pretty good look at how Samus in Smash Brothers is not nearly as good as it should be. Also note that at around the 23 minute mark is a Metroid Dread spoiler but it does cover the secret origins of Samus' Up Tilt:

 

[SomebodyData]

Back for a second, here are some additions I think could work.
Raven Beak:

• Illusion Creation & Technology Manipulation / Hacking: Turned out to be Adam, capable of manipulating Samus' technology through an illusion to communicate with Samus Aran.
• Add the abilities of Basic Power Suit Samus Aran to Raven Beak. (Not legendary power suit Samus however).
• Add the abilities of Kraid to Raven Beak X.
• Remove his current weakness (No X-Parasite has ever had these weaknesses, not sure why Raven Beak would be the exception.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, Invulnerability has had a lot of changed rules over the years; being immune to attacks isn't enough. We need lore that it actually nulls attack potency all together. For example, even 10-B characters with Invulnerability are assumed to be able to be immune to physical attacks from a Low 1-A character unless they possess hax to null invulnerability and/or have durability negation. And there are many limited types of Invulnerability such as only applying to physical attacks and what not. But it would just be electricity manipulation, forcefield creation and/or durability enhancement unless lore notes it literally nulls attack potency as opposed to just amping durability.

The rest looks good. And I also think Raven Beak comes from a scaling chain big enough to warrant an "At Least" indicator. And also, i recall there were some agreements to upgrade various characters to Extraordinary Genius as opposed to just Genius. Raven Beak is like even smarter than Mother Brain, and Samus Aran has outsmarted both their tech savvy smarts on multiple occasions. As for the at least indicator, it's noted a prime Super Metroid Samus or "Omega Suit" Samus from Fusion would stand 0 chance against Raven Beak. And despite originally getting one-shotted by E.M.M.I even in her prime, her manifested Metroid powers amped her physicaly strength the point where she could just effortlessly block their blades. Then the energy absorption amps her even further. Though absorbing an E.M.M.I doesn't quite give Samus the raw power to equal Ravek Beak till she gets her Metroid Suit. But E.M.M.I. and Raven Beak are implied to be foes who could oneshot Metroid Queen, the Omega Metroids including the amplified one form Fusion, Unbound Mother Brain, and more

Also, given Kraid's appearance likely means he has some notable durability feats back in Super Metroid and more added lore about Samus in her post basic suit during Fusion and beyond literally being a Metroid, not just having some DNA and a few note worthy Metroid powers. The High 6-A characters might get some upgrades; and tbh, I never understood how Alpha, Gamma, and Zeta Metroid would be any less durable than a Larva Metroid; including the fact that they're also foes that can only die from Ice Beam aka their weakness. But Raven Beak was confident in calling Samus the strongest Metroid that ever existed from the very beginning, and it was specifically the DNA of the Baby Metroid that saved Samus in Mother Brain that Samus merges with in Fusion.

 

[SomebodyData]

KK

At least 5-B makes sense, though I wouldn't go as far as saying he could one-shot Mother Brain or any of those.

Might have missed that stuff, when was this stated?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, he's at least overwhelmingly stronger than the Samus who fought Mother Brain, and Mother Brain already has an At least iirc.

Plenty of others mentioned it above, and she is frequently called a Metroid throughout Dread. I don't screenshot every scan I see on Switch and don't really seem to know how to send Switch pictures to my phone which I could post on Discord sadly. But I really wish I could. And she's definitely called the strongest Metroid by far towards the end of the game right before fighting Raven Beak. But Kraid likely surviving the destruction of Zebes would still be something.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, but how would that influence Metroid Fusion Samus and the Metroid evolutions?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Baby Metroids already naturally have Planet level durability via Power Bomb scaling, which the metamorphized forms, not sure why'd they'd get less durable to be honest. As for Fusion Suit Samus, it's implied she actually does have the powers of a Metroid including the ability to absorb life energy in Dread's lore. Also, Kraid fights basic Power Suit Samus who fights basic suit Dread Samus. Both Fusion Suit Samus and Power Suit Samus also fought Arachnus.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well canonically they end up getting killed by a weaker Samus without exploiting the Ice Beam weakness- so yeah they're less durable by the universe' logic. I would assume it was a trade-off for limiting their weakness to cold until eventually, they're back to their regular levels of durability without much of a weakness (relatively speaking) with the Zeta / Omega Metroids.

Metroid Dread makes it pretty clear that it wasn't until she fought Raven Beak that she was able to use the Metroid's draining ability.

Kraid fought Varia Dread Suit Samus though? And Arachnus fought Varia Suit Samus in Samus Returns, but I'd doubt he scales to Samus if that's what you're saying, considering the scaling is already BoG Fusion Suit Samus > Arachnus-X > Arachnus.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I played Dread when it first came out, and I beat Kraid without Varia Suit Samus iirc. Remember, Dread is like so nonlinear that sequence breaking pretty much isn't even a thing anymore. Also, do we even have reason to believe Kraid was any stronger than he was in Super Metroid? Especially considering it was the same Kraid who fought basic Power Suit Samus who survived the destruction of Zebes? Also, I played Samus Returns and recall Samus fighting Arachnus without Varia Suit. But either way, that still makes it sound like Basic Fusion Suit Samus would be Planet level regardless of the Arachnus bit is true regardless if basic Legendary Suit scales. Consistent with SA-X's Power Bomb example lol.

And while I know Samus has dazed Metroids with her punches, I remember that Ice Beam is the only weapon that drains their HP. But I don't have much to really say about Legendary Basic Power Suit, Fusion Suit definitely sounds due for some upgrades however.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sequence breaking is definitely a thing and Kraid has to be fought with the Varia Suit, he's literally in a heated room?

It definitely makes more sense to say that Arachnus just doesn't scale to Varia Suit Samus than assuming that basic Fusion Suit Samus is stronger or comparable to Varia Suit Samus.

No? You kill most of the grown Metroids through Samus' regular arsenal, the Ice Beam isn't even given to you until after you've killed a couple of Alpha Metroids.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Baby Metroids already naturally have Planet level durability via Power Bomb scaling, which the metamorphized forms, not sure why'd they'd get less durable to be honest.

Ah yes, baby metroids having planet-level durability. Guess I imagined the sector zero detachment explosionin Other M or the restricted zone detachment and explosion in Fusion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I can only comment on the 3rd one atm, but that just sounds like some of those Alpha Metroids are weaker, but the later ones that do develop and require Ice Beams aren't so much.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ah yes, baby metroids having planet-level durability. Guess I imagined the sector zero detachment explosionin Other M or the restricted zone detachment and explosion in Fusion.

You actually did imagine sector 0 exploding.

In Fusion, the ship explosion was already far above baseline 5-B, not sure if thats the point you think you're making.

Also very convenient ignoring that the Chozo thought the blowing up SR-388 was the only way they would kill the Metroids.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well admittedly, I suppose some surface-area arguments could be made in regards to the Tallon Metroid durability being a bit lower than the actual impact energy. Unless they were just, inside the seed itself.

 

[SomebodyData]

I can only comment on the 3rd one atm, but that just sounds like some of those Alpha Metroids are weaker, but the later ones that do develop and require Ice Beams aren't so much.

I can assure you that none of them, even up to the Omegas, require Ice Beam.

 

[SomebodyData]

Well admittedly, I suppose some surface-area arguments could be made in regards to the Tallon Metroid durability being a bit lower than the actual impact energy. Unless they were just, inside the seed itself.

You probably got some point there, MP is kinda wonky with whether or not the Metroids were already there. However, considering there are Metroid Prime carcasses all over Phaaze and the US translations have Metroids confirmed on the Leviathan. The GBL ver is admittedly kinda in the middle.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Tallon Metroids part does have a point with ISL, but Dark Samus even in her weakest stage is physically superior to the combined might of 3 fully manifested Leviathans.

 

[JJSliderman]

Oh, really? Is it some kinda Omega Pirate upscaling. I did hear something about her consuming Leviathan cores but I couldn't find it.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

You actually did imagine sector 0 exploding.

In Fusion, the ship explosion was already far above baseline 5-B, not sure if thats the point you think you're making.

Also very convenient ignoring that the Chozo thought the blowing up SR-388 was the only way they would kill the Metroids.

What? I was talking about just the restricted zone explosion, not the whole BSL at the end of the game. That part certainly isn't planet level, and it killed all thr baby metroids.
As for blowing up SR388, that was to ensure that the entire species would be wiped out, similar to how Ripley wanted to nuke the alien site from orbit in Aliens. That doesn't make the xenomorphs nuke level.

 

[SomebodyData]

I know, I'm pointing out that the ship exploding was already above baseline 5-B, so it isn't out of the question that the restricted zone's explosion would have 5-B AP. Especially since the BSL's explosion was just it crashing from orbit, whereas the zone was specifically designed to explode.

I don't think you remember the point you were making beforehand. You mentioned the explosion as a counter to Metroids being 5-B, I pointed out that these explosions would kill 5-B characters, not that the explosions make Metroids 5-B.

 

[Newendigo]

The first part doesn't make sense, the BSL's explosion being above 5-B wouldn't make the restriced area exploding that is so negibible small compared to the entire structure 5-B. The zone also was also not designed to explode it did due to the damage done by SA-X, it was simply disconnected from the BSL.

 

[SomebodyData]

On the map the zone is small, but the cutscene where it's shown detaching and exploding shows it's actually a pretty sizable chunk.

SA-X messed up the room you're in, but in no way was it shown to be the culprit for the explosion. Last we see of the SA-X it's not able to fight back against the Metroids, so I doubt it could even do anything anyways.

 

[JJSliderman]

I’m still a little confused where Echoes Dark Samus scaling above three leviathan cores is from, can it be clarified rq.

 

[Theglassman12]

Pretty sure there's a statement on Dark Samus being able to easily control the leviathans at will thanks to absorbing enough Phazon. Need to find it though since it has been a while since I've done any metroid research.

 

[JJSliderman]

I have seen that, I just don’t know how it equates to scaling to its power level.

 

[Theglassman12]

She grows stronger with Phazon, it’s what makes her such a deadly threat to begin with since she goes from taking on varia suit Samus to stomping her at the beginning of MP3

 

[JJSliderman]

I meant, how does controlling something make her scale to its AP it gets by crashing into things.

 

[Theglassman12]

I told you it’s through Phazon. She consumed far more Phazon than before, especially when she got to Phaaze where the source of it all is and the leviathans where she already had one source of power in the first MP game are something that’s an extension of herself.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

I'm assuming that Metroid Dread has been out for long enough that spoilers aren't necessary.

Samus' Metroid draining powers at the end of Dread essentially acts as an X Factor to quickly defeat a stronger opponent (Raven Beak). What kind of enemies would the Metroid drain not work on? Would the Metroid drain allow Samus to defeat an opponent who has a significant stat advantage? One example that comes to mind is the Superman villain Parasite who can bring down Superman pretty quick... then again his energy drain seems much faster than that of a Metroid but then again I'm not an expert on Parasite specifically.

Also, since larval Metroids can be removed with a Morph Ball Bomb, what would it take to get Samus off of whatever she's Metroid draining? Raven Beak seemed to have a hard time getting Samus off of him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

To an extent, she can definitely absorb energy from opponents stronger than she is, and she also grows stronger the more energy she drains from her opponents. Though I wouldn't go as far as to say she could absorb energy from opponents "Illion" times stronger than her right off the bat.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

To an extent, she can definitely absorb energy from opponents stronger than she is, and she also grows stronger the more energy she drains from her opponents. Though I wouldn't go as far as to say she could absorb energy from opponents "Illion" times stronger than her right off the bat.

Maybe if she had an absurd LS Advantage over them and they couldn't hit her for some reason, then you could argue it but it's probably not happening.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Samus has been known to complete impossible missions and win despite the odds being against her constantly. She's a character that is known to defeat opponents that are stronger than her, be they large or small. There are plenty of other characters that can do something like this but sometimes it's legitimate and other times it's purely plot armor. I think Samus falls into the former and the Metroid Drain is a potent X Factor against opponents that have a stat advantage, like Raven Beak. I mean, Samus'll have to catch them first which could pose a problem. I'd like to think Samus can do something about opponents that have some sort of stat gap since most fights aren't going to be against an opponent that can output 10 more joules of force than Samus. What comes to mind for me is when Raditz used his Scouter on Goku and Piccolo in the beginning of the Saiyan Saga in Dragon Ball, Goku had a 10 power level advantage over Piccolo I believe to show he's the stronger/better fighter (not sure if there's a term for something like this). 99% of fights aren't going to be that close in stats, but determining something like this is a fundamental aspect of VS Debates.

I would have responded earlier but I just never got around to it, or I had free time and responding never came to mind for whatever reason.

 

[SomebodyData]

Zero Mission Samus is done, I'm currently working on the Legendary Suit version. I've noticed there aren't any good renders of ZM Varia Suit Samus unless any of you guys have one?

Also for the revision thread, aside from Raven Beak additions and the Samus profile split, what else is there to revise?

 

[Theglassman12]

@SomebodyData don't forget to reference the scans, we kinda need that for the pages now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Forgot to update striking strength section for the Zero Suit key. Also, "Very High" isn't an intelligence rating anymore. After Above Average is Gifted and after that is Genius. Also, wasn't it agreed a while back that her intelligence was to be upgraded to Extraordinary Genius?

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

Zero Mission Samus is done, I'm currently working on the Legendary Suit version.

One thing I wanted to bring up about the description of the Legendary Suit, it's this bit here: "beginning with her destruction of their Zebesian base in her Zero Mission. By the end of that mission, Samus had lose the Power Suit that she had since her childhood." Samus didn't lose the original Power Suit in the sense of "it got destroyed" or "She dropped it while running away." Samus deactivated the Power Suit before being ambushed by Pirates leaving her unable to turn it back on essentially. My source is the translation of a developer Q&A from the Japanese Zero Mission website: https://www.metroid-database.com/old_site/features/faq.php. Only the first page seems to work for whatever reason but Samus can't turn on ther Power Suit because she "lost her fighting spirit"... which sounds silly but I don't make the rules. According to a friend of mine this stems from a Japanese cultural thing so take that as you will.

 

[SomebodyData]

Is this better?:

"By the end of that mission, Samus had lost the "fighting spirit" needed to utilize the Power Suit that she had since her childhood. After avoiding the remaining Space Pirates on Zebes, Samus would defeat the Ruins Test, obtaining her iconic "Legendary Suit"."

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

I'd say that's better, but saying that Samus lost her fighting spirit and couldn't turn on her super suit sounds silly. However, if you just said "She lost access to the suit she had since childhood" and someone asked for clarification, saying she lost her fighting spirit is the only real answer we have.

My head canon justification for the loss of fighting spirit is that the end of Zero Mission is the end of a story arc (even though Zero Mission is the start of the Metroid 1-5 story arc that Dread ended). Samus had established herself as the best bounty hunter in the galaxy and was able to defeat Ridley and put an end to Mother Brains schemes. Then she metaphorically and literally let her guard down after she escaped Tourian by deactivating her Power Suit. She was then ambushed by Pirates and shot down as a result. This dealt a huge blow to her psyche and her confidence so she couldn't turn her suit back on. Whether she didn't feel worthy of it or not is up for interpretation. Then she sneaks through the Pirate Mothership and beats the Ruins Test. This proves she's worthy and restores her confidence, being able to accomplish much despite being viewed as helpless with just her Paralyzer. The Power Suit is a piece of technology but it's also a part of her body since the suit is biotech, so having a big enough psychological blow would impact Samus'/her Power Suit's performance. So, I can see Samus losing her confidence as a way to hand wave being unable to access her Power Suit. Albeit saying she lost her "fighting spirit" is silly but that's kind of a real simplified way to explain what I just wrote about.

 

[TheAccursedHunter01]

What type of opponents would Samus' Metroid drain not work on? For example, Baldur from God of War (2018) is immune to all threats and can't be killed. Would Samus' Metroid drain not work on something like this or would it technically bypass what the spell does? Would Baldur get physically weak/turn to dust if Samus drained everything, only to recover eventually like when Kratos broke Baldur's neck at the beginning of God of War?

In the Metroid universe, the Metroid drain seems like a powerful X factor but despite this I wonder what it might not work on. I'm not necessarily talking about something obscure either like a single comic panel from 40 years ago.

 

[Theglassman12]

Beings that either lack something to drain or just resist it. Baldur doesn’t resist it to my knowledge so Samus can drain him.