Metaphysical Aspects in Sailor Moon

[AsterReal]

One version of the same scan uses the word "small" while the other uses the word "infinitesimally small". While they convey similar meanings, you could argue that the latter implies a much more extreme degree. That’s why it's important to settle on one translation.

I’d say they’re broadly similar, but accuracy should take priority. Which one is truer to the original material?

Which scan exactly?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

One version of the same scan uses the word "small" while the other uses the word "infinitesimally small". While they convey similar meanings, you could argue that the latter implies a much more extreme degree. That’s why it's important to settle on one translation.

I’d say they’re broadly similar, but accuracy should take priority. Which one is truer to the original material?

In this instance, I only provide two scans if the Japanese word being used is one that has double, interchangeable meaning. I usually separate them with / to convey that meaning, I used and in the OP, so if that’s the confusion I can see that, but the response, had been quite disproportionate, but ill deal with that all later.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Which scan exactly?

These two.

These two.

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

This verse got jumped, no chance of survival

 

[MeiouHades]

This verse got jumped, no chance of survival

Not helpful.

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Not helpful.

BRo thinks he's the perfect specimen

 

[MeiouHades]

BRo thinks he's the perfect specimen

I'm gonna report you. You constantly derail threads with pointless, useless comments and refuse to listen to anyone.

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

I'm gonna report you. You constantly derail threads with pointless, useless comments and refuse to listen to anyone.

NAh jit thinks he's working with the FBI

 

[MeiouHades]

Meh, whatever, guess I'll continue.

Appeal to authority and a strawman.

Weird way to say that I'm just citing how the site works.

No creating a universe does not mean technically creating information, because information is not a concept that exists in every story.

Not what I meant here. The universe inherently contains information, lots of it in fact, it's even called the mass-energy-information equivalence principle. Furthermore Quantum Mechanics dictates that said information cannot be destroyed, which is why the Black hole information paradox is such a big thing because the radiation from a Black hole contains no information about what actually went inside it. Anyway, the whole point here is that the universe DOES contain information and may even be made up of it. That said, we still do not and never will grant Info Type 2 (or even Type 1) manipulation to anyone who performs a Low 2-C feat without explicit statements, which, yes, includes the fact that the concept of information as a fundamental building block of reality must exist in the verse. See the point now? You need very explicit, very unambiguous statements and showings for this kinda stuff.

And I did not argue that star seeds can be equalized as information because the Cauldron creates universes. The Star seeds contain everything that makes up the thing they create, aka the information about the thing.

And how do you know that "everything" includes information? I just told you how you need either explicit statements or explicit showings for this.

And for your atomic scenario, if a character has direct statement that they can create atoms, and they have shown that they can create universes. You can't argue that their ability to create atoms is just flowery language when they have already shown they can create something made of atoms.

Right, unfortunately you don't have this. Like I said, just like in my atomic manipulation and information manipulation example, you need a lot more explicit, unambiguous statements and evidence to be able to get this accepted. You need statements that don't just fall apart under a passing glance towards the complete scans by anyone with basic media literacy (which includes you as well, yes). Whether its history, or destiny or possibilities/potential (this was debunked in the CM thread anyway), you need way more explicit statements and evidence for it. This was the source of @Theglassman12's disagreement as well, and it doesn't matter if you think these are "good enough" (they aren't lol), they're not good enough to get accepted by anyone here. And yeah flowery text is a real thing, doubly so in a magical girls manga, so I don't see this weird need to pretend that it doesn't exist when I very well could show well-known instances of it.

The Cauldron is directly stated to create histories, destinies, and futures. It is shown to create universes. Universes inherently have histories and futures.

Need explicit statements for these. Tell me this, you think every character who's Low 2-C here also has history erasure somehow? Check again. They don't, for a reason. You need hard evidence or statements for it not just inferences, like how I tried to show you with my info and atomic manip examples. Just because the universe DOES have a history doesn't mean we'll grant it to whoever creates or destroys a universe without statements for it, that's because history erasure (or creation in this case though I don't know if we even index that) is a very specific ability here that you need specific evidence to qualify for.

I hope I clarified this because this could not get any clearer if I tried. This is the source of glass's disagreement as well. The reason I'm not debating the future point is because you currently have the Tau Star System (incorrectly) accepted as Low 2-C, which by definition of that tier includes an infinite future/timeline which is what makes it Low 2-C, if I argued against that the Tau Star System would have to be 3-A which goes against what is currently accepted.

But it's obvious you have no counter so you have to cling to buzzwords like "cherry' pick" and bring up baggage from other threads.

Lol. Lmao even. Alright. Within this very thread, you've CONSTANTLY used buzzwords and nonsensically bombastic language to describe simple truths to make them sound more impressive than they actually are, a bit like here:

"The Cauldron governs the rises and falls of stars. It is the ultimate source of everything. Everything exists and pasts away in the cauldron. It is the primoradial sea and mother ocean. The sea of beginning. Everything was one with the Cauldron, and everything returns to the cauldron."

Which I even called out and said it's seriously impressive how you can find different ways to say the same mundane things. Your entire OP and many of your subsequent comments are chock full of buzzwords that don't really mean anything upon deconstruction yet I'm the one using buzzwords for telling you how you are LITERALLY cherry-picking a single word out of entire scans (going so far as to use multiple versions of the SAME SCAN just because they have the exact buzzwords you're looking to cherry-pick)? I hope this was a joke, because it was a bad one, a horrible one. EVERYONE here has been telling you that you're cherry-picking a bunch of flowery text.

That's not my argument for them being nonphysical. That's one of my counterargument that completely debunks your argument. A character with NPI handling an item, cannot guarantee it's physical because they can also handle nonphysical matter.

Yeah, too bad that "counterargument" fails miserably the moment I showed you how the silver crystal forms from a literal tear, a physical object, and goes through another, physical process (crystallization) to become the crystal that you think is non-physical because a bunch of beings with NPI are touching it. Those same beings interact with things that are also physical, so that's not a counterargument.

Also I did not move any goal posts. My arguments and scans about the crystal's being power are in the OP. Again, it's obvious that you have no counter so you have to cling to more buzzwords to try to discredit me.

No, the fact that you have to constantly find a million different ways to state the same mundane stuff in a pointlessly bombastic manner every single thread, literally have to cherry-pick buzzwords from entire scans while disregarding any and all context surrounding it every single time, and even go so far as to use multiple different scans just because it allows you to cherry-pick from more buzzwords to suit your agenda, proves that your argument SHOULD be discredited. It's just that I'm not the one clinging to buzzwords here, you are, repeating them constantly over and over as if that'll convince anyone but yourself.

Regardless, I think Information Manipulation Type 2 should be downgraded. Looking at it now, it's even more baseless than the concept hax, at least it had a mistranslation that made it seem legit initially. Nothing about the Starseeds remotely qualifies as Type 2 Information.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Disagree FRA, MeiouHades makes more sense

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

I agree with MeiouHades and thus disagree with this thread.

 

[TiltedFN]

I also agree with MeiouHades

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Boarding the Disagreeing Train

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Disagree with the thread due to MeiouHades' arguments

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeah I disagree to for above reasons

 

[Eseseso]

Disagree FRA

 

[TheTenno07]

Meiouhades has provided more sense with his arguments

 

[SailorRanger64]

I agree with OP, I find his explanations to be solid and conclusive.

 

[Shar122]

yeah this ain't it, I have to disagree.. I find
Hades argument more compelling based on what I've heard.

 

[Hellscream]

Put the sailor moon in the bag
Disagree fra

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Put the sailor moon in the bag
Disagree fra

Woah Buddy

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yea I disagree.

 

[Phoenks]

You can put me down for disagree as well. Hades almost always makes more sense to be regarding these Sailor Moon CRTs. Messy thread as usual. I also don't like the attitude of Unanimous. Calling people petty for disagreeing and whatnot. So much poisoning the well just because other people don't have the same interpretations of the same, vague sentences...

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

And with that, this thread will be mysteriously closed for no reason.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

I disagree with the thread

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Right, unfortunately you don't have this.

Let me refresh your memory.

1. I have direct statements that the Cauldron creates possibilities, futures, and histories.

2. You claimed that they're just flowery language.

3. I brought up the fact that the Cauldron creates universes which inherently has futures and histories.

4. Now you're claiming that creating universes doesn't mean anything without direct statements. See 1

Yeah, too bad that "counterargument" fails miserably the moment I showed you how the silver crystal forms from a literal tear, a physical object, and goes through another, physical process (crystallization) to become the crystal that you think is non-physical because a bunch of beings with NPI are touching it. Those same beings interact with things that are also physical, so that's not a counterargument.

I already refuted this, but you refuse to address my refutation.

1. When Galaxia takes the Star Seeds, she destroys the physical crystal and takes the power inside of it.
2. Star Seeds are said to be distillations of power.
3. The series has on several instances shown that the power inside the crystal is what's important. I posted a scan of Sailor Moon placing the power of her crystal inside of Mamoru, and turning the Silver Crystal into a regular piece of glass.
4. I posted a scan where it's stated that without Sailor Moon or Neo Queen Serenity, the silver crystal is just a regular piece of glass.

Actually address this argument instead of accusing me of moving the goalposts.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Ok, this doesn't remotely prove them being conceptual or law based in nature like you're trying to make it seem like.

Why are you even bringing up conceptual or laws when this about metaphysical aspects in general?

Sailor Moon having two separate pages for the Manga and Anime tells me otherwise, also is these dimensions ever elaborated upon to be universal in size or no?

The Crystal anime and the movies are accepted and used as secondary canon. The Tau star system is already accepted as being a universe on the wiki. These alternate dimensions are parallel to the main universe, as we see another alternate dimension is alternate future of the main universe.

Unanimous is arguing they're separate things in their own OP. Hence why I'm saying they need to stick to one or the other translation.

You're using one single scan, not separate scans and using separate translations to argue it just covers both possibilities and potential. We don't do that for any verse, and if they do, they need to pick one translation over the other.

Him saying the star seeds give form to these two things like they're separate with separate links tells me otherwise.

I'm did not argue they are separate things.

The Japanese word used can be translated to both possibilities and potential. I don't know why you're trying to act like possibilities and potential are two completely words that can't ever be used interchangeably. There is zero reason for you to try to paint malicious intent over something extremely trivial. We can go with the possibility scan.

Scans of her manipulating the star seeds? Because I don't see that.

The scan I posted says, "Galaxia brought them back" and she used their star seeds to do so.

Also one of your scans literally states every living thing has a star seed, what about History, destiny, possibilities, etc. has anything to do with sentient life?

The same scan also states stars, and planets, and everything in the heavens (aka celestial objects) have star seeds. The scans about History and destiny, and possibilities are speaking directly about the Cauldron creating each of the mentioned. The cauldron's method of creation is via star seeds.

In the possibility scan, it says where stars and possibilities are born. Stars are born from star seeds, so would the possibilities. Universes are born from seeds, as the Tau Star System is born from one. The Cosmos itself also has a seed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So much poisoning the well just because other people don't have the same interpretations of the same, vague sentences...

Save me from this moralizing nonsense. There are several posts attacking me and making false claims about my character, yet you specifically choose to say nothing about it. I really don't care.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Save me from this moralizing nonsense. There are several posts attacking me and making false claims about my character, yet you specifically choose to say nothing about it. I really don't care.

Attacking the people who are supposed to evaluate your threads:

 

[Theglassman12]

@Iamunanimousinthat You're literally using them as examples in your own OP and Blog and trying to push for the similar metaphysical aspects.

The fact you separate them as two points tells me otherwise, whether the translation describes it as one or the other is irrelevant, pick one.

Thanks

Where in that scan does it remotely say all planets and celestial objects are made from star seeds? Also again what does this have anything to do with metaphysical stuff when it doesn't prove your point on metaphysical stuff?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Where in that scan does it remotely say all planets and celestial objects are made from star seeds?

Are you serious? Did you read the entire scan?

 

[AsterReal]

Where in that scan does it remotely say all planets and celestial objects are made from star seeds?

Well, Yaten literally says "this planet has a Starseed and our planet also has a Starseed."

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Are you serious? Did you read the entire scan?

 

[MeiouHades]

Time to cook!!!!

Let me refresh your memory.

Ya don't have to, mine's already far superior to yours

1. I have direct statements that the Cauldron creates possibilities, futures, and histories.

No ya don't. You really don't. None of those statements, within their context, actually imply that the cauldron creates them literally or gives form to them as you'd call it. Birthing possibilities by creating Stars (which can mean living people here as well) is not the same as literally creating abstract, metaphysical possibilities (logically contingent ones and otherwise). Same thing with histories or destinies too. Here's the thing, you ARE interpreting all of them hyperliterally and refusing to accept other interpretations, why must I and everyone else agree to your interpretation when it's a flawed one? And just so you know you DO have to convince others (especially staff) of your high-end interpretations if you want them accepted. Parroting them over and over ain't gonna achieve that.

2. You claimed that they're just flowery language.

They're flavor text yes, and with the possibilities statement we went even more in-depth during Operation Star Destroyer on why this statement doesn't mean exactly what you're saying it does, and that interpretation was accepted as it was part of the thread, so you really can't use that here at least anyway. I myself and many others have also already told you why these other statements aren't to be taken hyperliterally here as well I even gave a whole explanation using examples from information manipulation, atomic manipulation and history erasure to hammer in how this stuff needs far more explicit statements

3. I brought up the fact that the Cauldron creates universes which inherently has futures and histories.

Just universe*. Singular. And by that I mean the Tau Star System that's currently accepted as Low 2-C, because of that your "future" point is moot because it is already inherently included by virtue of it being a Low 2-C realm. That statement however won't do ya any good. And History part I've told you countless times by now I'm not gonna repeat myself, you need blatant statements for History or anything related. Even something like "the universe/space-time has its own history" or ANY variation of it that makes the history point clear, that's what you need and that's how characters who has Low 2-C achieved History hax, not just by virtue of being Low 2-C. So yeah, creating a universe doesn't get you History manip or anything.

4. Now you're claiming that creating universes doesn't mean anything without direct statements. See 1

Beyond just a Low 2-C feat? Yeah it doesn't, and given how horrible your "statements" are and how, with some context, they mean something completely different to what you're implying you're effectively left with nothing to argue or defend your stance with.

I already refuted this, but you refuse to address my refutation.

1. When Galaxia takes the Star Seeds, she destroys the physical crystal and takes the power inside of it.

So you admit the crystal itself is physical?

2. Star Seeds are said to be distillations of power.

Doesn't make them non-physical

3. The series has on several instances shown that the power inside the crystal is what's important. I posted a scan of Sailor Moon placing the power of her crystal inside of Mamoru, and turning the Silver Crystal into a regular piece of glass.

Again, never said that the power isn't what's important. I've just been trying to hammer how the crystals are literal physical objects, the power itself being non-physical isn't an issue.

4. I posted a scan where it's stated that without Sailor Moon or Neo Queen Serenity, the silver crystal is just a regular piece of glass.

Okay, cool, supports my stance that it's literally just a physical crystal and not some metaphysical, transcendent object.

Actually address this argument instead of accusing me of moving the goalposts.

What argument do you need addressed? You literally just agreed with me this entire section, you're the one moving goalposts now constantly with the "power" argument whereas previously just a reply ago you were arguing how because the characters who handle the crystals have NPI the crystal isn't necessarily physical. You're flip-floppin' faster than a gas station griddle cake, pick one side for Mary's sake.

The Crystal anime and the movies are accepted and used as secondary canon.

Where? Serious question, where? Can I see the thread? Why's there separate profiles for anime and manga then if they're accepted as canon. If you're using the canonicity standards for this, lemme stop you right here and tell you that it's usually the databooks that are treated as secondary canon. Anime or movies or different adaptations are tertiary canon at best and even that's on a very case-by-case basis that you usually need a thread for.

I'm did not argue they are separate things.
The Japanese word used can be translated to both possibilities and potential.

Oh no, nope. This is what your statement in the OP says:

"The galaxy cauldron through star seeds give form to all beings. Universes, power, light, darkness, history, destiny, futures, possibilities and potential."

You are CLEARLY trying to argue here as if possibilities AND potential are two separate things here, that's why you use the word "and" there. If this was just you using them interchangeably as you say, you'd separate them by using a "/" (like you said earlier you do) or just used the word.... well, "or". Had tou done that, maybe this would've been overlooked but no, you are clearly attempting to argue that the Cauldron gives form to possibilities AND potential NOT possibilities/potential or possibilities OR potential. And as for the possibilities statement, we debunked that nonsense in the previous thread an I'd be more than happy to do it here again too.

The scan I posted says, "Galaxia brought them back" and she used their star seeds to do so.

Oh cool, resurrection. Make sure to add that to the profiles

The same scan also states stars, and planets, and everything in the heavens (aka celestial objects) have star seeds. The scans about History and destiny, and possibilities are speaking directly about the Cauldron creating each of the mentioned.

Uh, no it ain't?

The cauldron's method of creation is via star seeds.

Okay, so is there Starseed for "possibilities" or "History" or "Destinies"? This is the same trap you found yourself in when I questioned of there is a Cauldron has a Starseed for higher dimensions (since that is its method of creation) you sure you wanna do this again?

In the possibility scan, it says where stars and possibilities are born. Stars are born from star seeds, so would the possibilities. Universes are born from seeds, as the Tau Star System is born from one. The Cosmos itself also has a seed.

Stars in SM refer to more than just celestial objects, they also refer to people, living beings, etc. So by creating them the Cauldron IS birthing possibilities yet it is fundamentally different to creating literal possibilities in the most abstract, metaphysical manner which is a very high-end interpretation which you're gonna need equally high-end evidence for. And no the the universe ain't have a seed, sorry. Two debunked and rejected threads says otherwise. It's just Guardian Cosmos' own Starseed, which is the polar opposite to Chaos and Chaos Seed, nothing more.

Save me from this moralizing nonsense. There are several posts attacking me and making false claims about my character, yet you specifically choose to say nothing about it. I really don't care.

LMAO. Alright. Just so ya know, I'm not attacking you or your character, never did that (and if that intellectual dishonesty comment did come off that way, I apologize for it sincerely, I never have the intention to attack you or anyone but I'm not infallible and it may have come off that way which I once again apologize for).

 

[Vietthai96]

I have direct statements that the Cauldron creates possibilities, futures, and histories

What scan say:

You have come to see me, does that mean you wish to cast your life into the cauldron's sea of beginnings and embark upon a new celestial history

Sailor Moon, we will meet at last, here where all destinies begin. The time has come to start a new history for our galaxy

a new future will begin somewhere, and it may breed light and darkness again.

New futures are born all the time and that will never stop

About possibilities scan, like you have two translation with different wording lol

Anyway did you even read your own scans?, nothing here stated cauldron or starseed or whatever it is created literal causality and fate, just metaphorical way of saying new life will bring about new history to the world, new future, new possibility

2. You claimed that they're just flowery language.

Literally they are, see the above

3. I brought up the fact that the Cauldron creates universes which inherently has futures and histories.

1. No, no scan said Cauldron creates universes, the only scan you have is the Thyoron Crystal powered Tau Star System

2. No, again, created universe which inherrently has futures and histories is just, basic thing of tier 2, like what?, you want to claim that every tier 2 have metaphysical power??, literally timeline basically must contains all events that made up timeline's history and future, it isn't metaphysical causality and fate

1. When Galaxia takes the Star Seeds, she destroys the physical crystal and takes the power inside of it.
2. Star Seeds are said to be distillations of power.
3. The series has on several instances shown that the power inside the crystal is what's important. I posted a scan of Sailor Moon placing the power of her crystal inside of Mamoru, and turning the Silver Crystal into a regular piece of glass.
4. I posted a scan where it's stated that without Sailor Moon or Neo Queen Serenity, the silver crystal is just a regular piece of glass

No one contest power being non-physical, but non-physical doesn't mean metaphysical, it could help, slightly though

 

[Rayfire]

Well, that escalated quickly

Put me down for disagree here

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Well, that escalated quickly

Put me down for disagree here

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

What scan say:

First statement. Inside the cauldron describing a process the cauldron literally facilitates. How is that not a direct statement?

Second statement. While outside the cauldron, Galaxia says destinies begin here. How is that not a direct statement? Couple that with the statement that Cauldron governs the rise and fall of stars.

I'm not using the third statement. I'm using the fourth statement, "

New futures are born all the time and that will never stop

Said outside the galaxy cauldron, a structure that's stated ad nauseum to give birth to things. How is that not a direct statement?

This is so funny to me. Exactly the reason why I made that thread.

The time room gets to be a dimension with zero statements. But these aren't direct enough statements?
You can claim that every universe has it's own time room with zero statements. But these aren't enough statements?
And on top of that you can claim that each time room in each universe is separate and not a shared dimension with zero statements. But these aren't direct enough statements?

This is the biggest farce I have ever seen in the history of this site. Do you want me to post a scan that says our standards word for word?

So you admit the crystal itself is physical?
Doesn't make them non-physical
Again, never said that the power isn't what's important. I've just been trying to hammer how the crystals are literal physical objects, the power itself being non-physical isn't an issue.
Okay, cool, supports my stance that it's literally just a physical crystal and not some metaphysical, transcendent object.

This is the most disingenuous thing I have ever seen. MY OP is literally stating that the physical crystal is not the star seed and that the star seed is inside the crystal. The thing you are calling a physical crystal is not the thing this thread is about and you know it. You're just derailing this by acting ignorant and refusing to address me honestly.

You are CLEARLY trying to argue here as if possibilities AND potential are two separate things here, that's why you use the word "and" there. If this was just you using them interchangeably as you say, you'd separate them by using a "/" (like you said earlier you do) or just used the word.... well, "or". Had tou done that, maybe this would've been overlooked but no, you are clearly attempting to argue that the Cauldron gives form to possibilities AND potential NOT possibilities/potential or possibilities OR potential. And as for the possibilities statement, we debunked that nonsense in the previous thread an I'd be more than happy to do it here again too.

I'm done. This is the dumbest shit I have ever experienced on this site. And it's my breaking point. I have literally said again and again that's not what my intention was, and in literally in every other thread I do put "/" and in the same OP i used "/" for perfect and complete in the same thread. The fact and you and glassman want to purposefully paint me out as being malicious over the most pettiest and trivial shit ever, is ******* sad and pathetic.

Congratulations. You won. Your lies. Your defamations. Your walls of text to derail and flood my threads with way too much information for anyone to process, that no one can tell what's true or false. This shit is not fun and it will never be fun again.

This site's representation has been forever destroyed. Do you know how many people have quietly reached out to me to give me support because they're tired of this nonsense and toxicity? All because I posted an upgrade thread you didn't agree with? You want to completely destroy this verse.

If a mod has to ask me, "I don't see anything that states all planets and celestial objects have star seeds" for a scan that obviously states that, then there's just zero hope here.

 

[SweetDao]

Congratulations. You won. Your lies. Your defamations. Your walls of text to derail and flood my threads with way too much information for anyone to process, that no one can tell what's true or false. This shit is not fun and it will never be fun again.

I think you should take a break. Beside being unhelpful to you, I feel like it's starting to become outright detrimental.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

They give birth to everything. All living things regardless of their shape, size, or name, all celestial objects (everything in the heavens)

To be fair, this scan does state that everything in the heavens [space] has a Star Seed, specifically mentioning planets and stars. I can see why one might interpret that as a metaphysical property in that it may be similar to Information Type 2. However, based on the broader context of other scans, I’m more inclined to see it as analogous to a soul or heart - a kind of essence/life energy to things - rather than a true metaphysical property. There’s also a recurring emphasis on energy within things, which supports the idea of it being a kind of essence.

The other scans tend to read more metaphorically as well. That said, the disagreements seem to revolve around whether the material should be read literally or interpreted more abstractly. I think that’s been the center of contention so far, and I think recognizing that disagreement is key to moving forward.

Also, Iam really needs to settle on a single translation. The continued pushback you're getting is largely because nobody knows which is being used - and people are right to harp on you for this specifically. It comes off as obfuscation. Perhaps this discussion would be in a better place had this been done already. Please pick one already.

Well then.