Metaphysical Aspects in Sailor Moon

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay, so we're doin' this? The mods also accepted a bunch of blatantly false information. I can do this too

I'm still waiting for you to explain how the "Star seeds just negate acausality and immortality" is supposed to explain away Mamoru getting erased in the past when his star seed was destroyed.

 

[MeiouHades]

I'm still waiting for you to explain how the "Star seeds just negate acausality and immortality" is supposed to explain away Mamoru getting erased in the past when his star seed was destroyed.

I don't gotta answer for a scene that uses non-canon footage. Show me that scene in the manga and then I'll explain it, or show me where exactly ya got anime and movies accepted as canon because you NEED a thread to get that sorta stuff accepted for use. And you still haven't answered my question. You're adding new stuff while arguing as if it's just adding accepted things to a blog, correct?

 

[SailorRanger64]

That's a wild claim

Their evidence says otherwise.

I did about a page or so ago, as did @Theglassman12 and many other users. You don't gotta agree with it, but we did prove it. That's how this site works, FYI

Okay, and what your proof was countered by what @AsterReal, @HenshinIntervention, and @Iamunanimousinthat have said. So do you have anything else? If not then we don't really have anything to talk about.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I don't gotta answer for a scene that uses non-canon footage. Show me that scene in the manga and then I'll explain it, or show me where exactly ya got anime and movies accepted as canon because you NEED a thread to get that sorta stuff accepted for use. And you still haven't answered my question. You're adding new stuff while arguing as if it's just adding accepted things to a blog, correct?

LMAO

 

[Hasty12345]

Their evidence says otherwise.

Okay, and what your proof was countered by what @AsterReal, @HenshinIntervention, and @Iamunanimousinthat have said. So do you have anything else? If not then we don't really have anything to talk about.

There's a difference between responding to an argument and debunking it.

 

[MeiouHades]

Okay, and what your proof was countered by what @AsterReal, @HenshinIntervention, and @Iamunanimousinthat have said. So do you have anything else? If not then we don't really have anything to talk about.

And that that was countered further by me and several other users. You're not gonna get anywhere by repeating this ad nauseum. I'm assuming you're doin' this because you're a new user and not exactly familiar with how the site operates or how CRTs go.

 

[MeiouHades]

LMAO

Still no answer. Oh by the way, @Theglassman12 explicitly disagreed with the thread, so please do add his vote

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm also still waiting for you to explain how the statements of the cauldron creating histories, destinies, and futures is just flowerily language when it's already proven the cauldron can create universes which inherently has those.

I'm also still waiting for you explain why characters handling sailor crystals makes them physical, when characters can also handle nonphysical substances like souls, ghosts, power.

 

[SailorRanger64]

I don't gotta answer for a scene that uses non-canon footage. Show me that scene in the manga and then I'll explain it, or show me where exactly ya got anime and movies accepted as canon because you NEED a thread to get that sorta stuff accepted for use. And you still haven't answered my question. You're adding new stuff while arguing as if it's just adding accepted things to a blog, correct?

I'm confused, what non-canon stuff? Can you show us?

And that that was countered further by me and several other users. You're not gonna get anywhere by repeating this ad nauseum. I'm assuming you're doin' this because you're a new user and not exactly familiar with how the site operates or how CRTs go.

So, you don't have new counterarguments? Because what's been said isn't really good enough if it can be easily countered.

 

[MeiouHades]

I'm also still waiting for you to explain how the statements of the cauldron creating histories, destinies, and futures is just flowerily language when it's already proven the cauldron can create universes which inherently has those.

These are aspects you explicitly gotta accepted, in fact that's kinda the reason for this thread. If it was already accepted you wouldn't be doing this, and you need explicit statements for this stuff you can't just say that something creating universes should inherently have this. As an example, creating a universe also technically means creating information itself so by default it should grant info type 2 but it doesn't, not on this site. It should also grant atomic manipulation but it doesn't. Nothing is granted without explicit statements and the statements that you did give were, as I showed, stating something completely different when you view the whole panel and don't just cherrypick a single word and run with it like your "fleeting shadows" nonsense a while ago. This is why @Theglassman12 disagreed as well, none of those statements are explicit or concrete enough.

I'm also still waiting for you explain why characters handling sailor crystals makes them physical, when characters can also handle nonphysical substances like souls, ghosts, power.

This is your argument for them not being physical? "The characters can handle non-physical stuff, so anything else they interact with has also got to be non-physical" that's your argument. And if you read the previous thread (and even the responses in this thread) you'll see how we extensively proved how the crystals were physical objects in more ways than the characters just being able to handle them which already does NOT make them non-physical just because those characters may have NPI themselves. And this is the whole reason why you had to move the goalpost to talking about the Crystal's "power" being the real deal instead of the Crystal itself.

 

[Vietthai96]

Appeal to authority. The mods accepted blatantly false information.

you said mods accepted blatantly false information, but aren't you used a mistranslated scan in your accepted CM1 thread?, look like the mods need to look back at all the SM threads they had been accepted so far

And pretty much all the claims were countered to be contradictory to the manga, out of context, or just wrong like the claims about Sailor Saturn in the Star destroyer thread. It's not broad, it's pretty simple. Is there anything you can find that can prove OP wrong?

Look, you guys are free to think, interpreting whatever you guys want, but if you guys want to put things on the official page, then convinces others with proofs, saying the mods accepted false information, or they was wrong, etc.... with empty words, that not going to get thing accepted

 

[MeiouHades]

I'm confused, what non-canon stuff? Can you show us?

If you wanna use movies or anime, you usually need to do a thread to have them accepted as supplementary canon. Same thing for video games stuff.

So, you don't have new counterarguments? Because what's been said isn't really good enough if it can be easily countered.

You sound like a broken record at this point

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Can someone explain what the current arguments and rebuttals are insofar? This revision is basically a saga of threads and pages now, christ.

This also is moving really fast and I view this back-and-forth as distracting if not (even if because of provocation) counterproductive to settling this.

 

[SailorRanger64]

Can someone explain what the current arguments and rebuttals are insofar? This revision is basically a saga of threads and pages now, christ.

This also is moving really fast and I view this back-and-forth as distracting if not (even if because of provocation) counterproductive to settling this.

@Iamunanimousinthat Explained the metaphysical aspects in Sailor Moon, to which some made rebuttals explaining how those aspects are incorrect, to which those rebuttals were counterargued. And ever since then it's been back and forth, is there any way of resolving this without another 8 page meltdown?

 

[MeiouHades]

@Iamunanimousinthat Explained the metaphysical aspects in Sailor Moon, to which some made rebuttals explaining how the aspects are incorrect, to which those rebuttals were countered. And ever since then it's been back and forth, is there any way of resolving this without another 8 page meltdown?

Hardly a helpful or impartial summary, I'd say.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

These are aspects you explicitly gotta accepted, in fact that's kinda the reason for this thread. If it was already accepted you wouldn't be doing this, and you need explicit statements for this stuff you can't just say that something creating universes should inherently have this. As an example, creating a universe also technically means creating information itself so by default it should grant info type 2 but it doesn't, not on this site. It should also grant atomic manipulation but it doesn't. Nothing is granted without explicit statements and the statements that you did give were, as I showed, stating something completely different when you view the whole panel and don't just cherrypick a single word and run with it like your "fleeting shadows" nonsense a while ago. This is why @Theglassman12 disagreed as well, none of those statements are explicit or concrete enough.

Appeal to authority and a strawman. No creating a universe does not mean technically creating information, because information is not a concept that exists in every story. And I did not argue that star seeds can be equalized as information because the Cauldron creates universes. The Star seeds contain everything that makes up the thing they create, aka the information about the thing.

And for your atomic scenario, if a character has direct statement that they can create atoms, and they have shown that they can create universes. You can't argue that their ability to create atoms is just flowery language when they have already shown they can create something made of atoms.

The Cauldron is directly stated to create histories, destinies, and futures. It is shown to create universes. Universes inherently have histories and futures.

But it's obvious you have no counter so you have to cling to buzzwords like "cherry' pick" and bring up baggage from other threads.

This is your argument for them not being physical? "The characters can handle non-physical stuff, so anything else they interact with has also got to be non-physical" that's your argument. And if you read the previous thread (and even the responses in this thread) you'll see how we extensively proved how the crystals were physical objects in more ways than the characters just being able to handle them which already does NOT make them non-physical just because those characters may have NPI themselves. And this is the whole reason why you had to move the goalpost to talking about the Crystal's "power" being the real deal instead of the Crystal itself.

That's not my argument for them being nonphysical. That's one of my counterargument that completely debunks your argument. A character with NPI handling an item, cannot guarantee it's physical because they can also handle nonphysical matter.

Also I did not move any goal posts. My arguments and scans about the crystal's being power are in the OP. Again, it's obvious that you have no counter so you have to cling to more buzzwords to try to discredit me.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Can someone explain what the current arguments and rebuttals are insofar? This revision is basically a saga of threads and pages now, christ.

This also is moving really fast and I view this back-and-forth as distracting if not (even if because of provocation) counterproductive to settling this.

Honestly, everything in the OP still stands. They just bring in random baggage from other threads, accuse me of taking scans out of context, without any evidence of that I did so, or just claiming it's all flowery language. And now, they're claiming I'm not allowed to use a secondary canon movie that almost 1:1 to the manga even though it completely debunked everything they're yapping about.

I"m gonna be honest with you. This thread is a total wash, once again, the totally objective DBZ gang has ruined another Sailor Moon thread. I'm thinking about leaving this site if nonsense like this keeps standing and mods keep accepting downgrades with objectively false information.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

I"m gonna be honest with you. This thread is a total wash, once again, the totally objective DBZ gang has ruined another Sailor Moon thread. I'm thinking about leaving this site if nonsense like this keeps standing and mods keep accepting downgrades with objectively false information.

I get where you're coming from. It's frustrating when you feel like a thread is being derailed or when your efforts are being dismissed, especially if it feels like there's a pattern to it. But as someone who's also had to deal with underrepresented or poorly maintained verses (I mean, you can read my signature lol), I can tell you this kind of burnout happens, and lashing out doesn’t help fix the problem.

You're not wrong to be upset, but you're also not blameless in how this discussion has unfolded. When multiple people raise concerns, even if you disagree, it’s worth stepping back to evaluate whether something might’ve been overlooked or miscommunicated. Talking past each other only entrenches both sides in this kind of flame war. And honestly yeah, this is well past that point.

Also (and unrelated to the point above), the point raised by the opposition about translations is valid. Picking a single, reliable translation and sticking to it is key to avoiding confusion. I personally do this for every source I share with Touhou Project stuff. If there was a mix-up, that’s okay - it's a fixable mistake, not something worth slinging mud at others over (and again, this is a fairly serious thing want remedy immediately).

Beyond that, I really think this should’ve been a Staff Thread from the start. It's obvious this subject is going to be hotly debated and recycled endlessly without proper oversight ad nauseum. And to address the elephant in the room - I’ll say it plainly: closing threads that revisit the same core topic without resolving the original concerns doesn’t make the problem go away. It just builds more frustration and will bring those ghosts back to haunt you.

At this point, I’d strongly requesting that this be elevated to a Staff Thread. That way, we can a clear ruling, and hopefully put some structure around what’s otherwise turning into a self-fulfilling cycle of miscommunication and bad faith assumptions.

 

[ZillionZeutron]

I"m gonna be honest with you. This thread is a total wash, once again, the totally objective DBZ gang has ruined another Sailor Moon thread. I'm thinking about leaving this site if nonsense like this keeps standing and mods keep accepting downgrades with objectively false information.

Define “objective” right quick. You seem to confuse subjective and objective facts. Also, isn't what you’re blatantly doing a reportable and bannable offense? Don't the site have rules for situations like this? Im surprised no one has reported you yet.

Anyways, I disagree with the thread FRA.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Uses a mistranslated scans to pass an upgrade

Hides contexts of the said scenes

Says completely different things from what his scan is saying

"Why are you not letting me pass upgrades like before I was receiving scrutiny on false premises"

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Disagree with the thread

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Uses a mistranslated scans to pass an upgrade

Hides contexts of the said scenes

Says completely different things from what his scan is saying

"Why are you not letting me pass upgrades like before I was receiving scrutiny on false premises"

No matter how many time you keep repeating this lie, it will never be true.

 

[Theglassman12]

@JawbreakerAlumni That's not an argument, telling people to just do your own homework isn't helping your side. As for the scans I literally said the possibilities and potential is being used for the same image but using completely different translations.

@Iamunanimousinthat You're using one single scan, not separate scans and using separate translations to argue it just covers both possibilities and potential. We don't do that for any verse, and if they do, they need to pick one translation over the other.

Sailor Moon having two separate pages for the Manga and Anime tells me otherwise, also is these dimensions ever elaborated upon to be universal in size or no?

Where does it say the cauldrons made them, or better yet, where does it say the star seeds specifically is where these things originate from? Because I don't see anything like that in the blog.

Scans of her manipulating the star seeds? Because I don't see that.

Ok, this doesn't remotely prove them being conceptual or law based in nature like you're trying to make it seem like.

Calling my reasoning petty isn't going to help you. Maybe get better scans to prove me wrong instead of making claims about me just because I don't agree with you. If you're going to act the same as you did in the past SM threads and not provide scans that back up your side, I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.

 

[SailorRanger64]

@JawbreakerAlumni That's not an argument, telling people to just do your own homework isn't helping your side. As for the scans I literally said the possibilities and potential is being used for the same image but using completely different translations.

I'm confused by your statement? We already have our scans and pages. May I ask to see these images and translations?

 

[Theglassman12]

These two. There's no reason to have these two to argue two completely different things the star seeds encompass when you're just using separate translations to argue separate abilities. Either choose one translation or the other.

 

[SailorRanger64]

These two. There's no reason to have these two to argue two completely different things the star seeds encompass when you're just using separate translations to argue separate abilities. Either choose one translation or the other.

Oh okay! Now I see the problem. See both of these are official translations by Kodansha, the first image is the Eternal Edition that printed from 2018-2020. The second one is the previous re-print from 2011, the Eternal Edition is the one to use since it's the most recent one. So my question is what makes you think they're separate when possibilities replaced potential in the Eternal Edition? There's nothing indicating they argue different things.

 

[Theglassman12]

Unanimous is arguing they're separate things in their own OP. Hence why I'm saying they need to stick to one or the other translation.

 

[SailorRanger64]

I looked at the OP and, uh, technically there's nothing he says that's saying they're separate things. Especially since one word replaces the other.

 

[Theglassman12]

The galaxy cauldron through star seeds give form to all beings. Universes, power, light, darkness, history, destiny, futures, possibilities and potential. Even the Cosmos itself has a star seed.

Him saying the star seeds give form to these two things like they're separate with separate links tells me otherwise.

 

[SailorRanger64]

And how does it exactly say they're separate? It's just two words that basically mean the same thing with one replacing the other. It's a simple nuance.
But also the word potential is used here talking about the cauldron anyway so this is a moot point at the end of the day because it uses both words in the recent translation.

 

[Hasty12345]

And how does it exactly say they're separate? It's just two words that basically mean the same thing with one replacing the other. It's a simple nuance.
But also the word potential is used here talking about the cauldron anyway so this is a moot point at the end of the day because it uses both words in the recent translation.

This is getting ridiculous. You know very well these two words have entirely different contextual meanings on the wiki, this semantics debate is derailment. Whether intentional or not, this isn’t acceptable, you can’t use two different translations of the same page to represent two different ideas with entirely different colloquial connotations.

 

[SailorRanger64]

This is getting ridiculous. You know very well these two words have entirely different contextual meanings on the wiki, this semantics debate is derailment. Whether intentional or not, this isn’t acceptable, you can’t use two different translations of the same page to represent two different ideas with entirely different colloquial connotations.

I just showed both words are used in reference to the cauldron in the most recent translation of the manga. Can you show me where they have different meanings?

 

[Hasty12345]

I just showed both words are used in reference to the cauldron in the most recent translation of the manga. Can you show me where they have different meanings?

You cannot be this dense bro.

 

[SailorRanger64]

So that's a no then? Okay, I won't take up more space and call it a night.

 

[Antvasima]

As usual, everybody here should strive to be on their best behaviours, and be nice and respectful to each other. Thank you.

 

[MeiouHades]

At this point, I’d strongly requesting that this be elevated to a Staff Thread. That way, we can a clear ruling, and hopefully put some structure around what’s otherwise turning into a self-fulfilling cycle of miscommunication and bad faith assumptions.

I don't believe this is sound advice. OP had already done this not once, but twice, where they'd create a staff thread to "clarify something" that is clearly getting actively rejected. What OP needs to do is to learn to take rejection well, that's all.

 

[MeiouHades]

I just showed both words are used in reference to the cauldron in the most recent translation of the manga. Can you show me where they have different meanings?

We do not use two different versions of the same scan, that's all you need to know. It doesn't matter whether you think they're just different interpretations, we just do not do that. It's horrible and anyone who does that needs to stop immediately and so does anyone who defends this. It is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

Highest order huh? That’s a really serious claim. You should go report me if you really think me posting scans to show that a Japanese word can be translated into two ways is sooo deeply dishonest!

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

As usual, everybody here should strive to be on their best behaviours, and be nice and respectful to each other. Thank you.

Thanks for keeping peace Ant!

I will respond to all of glassman’s concerns later tonight. Will be offline until then!

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

One version of the same scan uses the word "small" while the other uses the word "infinitesimally small". While they convey similar meanings, you could argue that the latter implies a much more extreme degree. That’s why it's important to settle on one translation.

I’d say they’re broadly similar, but accuracy should take priority. Which one is truer to the original material?