Bobsican
He/Him- 21,194
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Simply put, all robots before the X era should get as a weakness that making them question their free will or conciousness will make their minds freeze, per the statements given in this canon guide book.
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Mega Man Classic Downgrade
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
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This should be fine
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That seems fine to label as a weakness for the Classic era robots.
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I would have called the title a weakness addition as opposed to downgrades; which usually applies to stat downgrades. But this looks good.
Chaos Jester25
He/Him- 887
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I agree with this.
I'm on the fence about Zero but I definitely disagree with Sunstar having it. Sunstar and the other stardroids have different creators than the robot masters and I doubt that the ancient alien civilization that built the stardroids made the exact same electronic brain system as Dr.Light.
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I've read that before and Light tries to fix it right away. Let me re-read...
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Literally next paragraph:
"Am I capable of something like that right now? At the very least, if I can improve artificial intelligence so that Roll won't freeze, then that ought to be a good place to start."
We don't have any freeze reports fror any other guides after this, so either is a very rare occurence or Light already fixed it.
"Am I capable of something like that right now? At the very least, if I can improve artificial intelligence so that Roll won't freeze, then that ought to be a good place to start."
We don't have any freeze reports fror any other guides after this, so either is a very rare occurence or Light already fixed it.
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Here's the scan where it says what Rodri quotes. Same page, next paragraph. And given there is no evidence suggesting that they kept this weakness, then I'm inclining to being neutral on this weakness addition.
In the case that this does apply, space bots such as the Stardroids, Duo and even Shadow Man wouldn't even apply to this due to being built by different alien civilizations. Oh, and this wouldn't apply to Ra Moon and his creations either. Zero probably wouldn't apply to this either because he's just so much more advanced and has been re-built countless times with upgrades along the way.
In the case that this does apply, space bots such as the Stardroids, Duo and even Shadow Man wouldn't even apply to this due to being built by different alien civilizations. Oh, and this wouldn't apply to Ra Moon and his creations either. Zero probably wouldn't apply to this either because he's just so much more advanced and has been re-built countless times with upgrades along the way.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,194
- 6,096
- Thread starter
- #10
Dr. Light indeed could have made some improvements on Roll as to not freeze when questioning her own consciousness or free will for sure, but it is quite vague if he managed to do it at all. (We never know the details of his repairs and even he doubts he could do it).
But it is clear that questioning her own consciousness and free will is still something that Roll would not be able to do on her own or at least have trouble doing in some regard or she would become as self conscious as X, who is considered the first one to be able to do so.
Also we can not assume Light "patched" this on all Robots between MM 1-7 as some are made by Wily and other creators or have been canonically destroyed at least pre-starroid invasion, which the reports reference as a past event.
After thinking about it, I do think Zero should have this weakness. But since Zero is programmed for battle, he might just be designed to ignore and disregard thinking about such dillema at all in the middle of a fight. Wily is not the type to invest so much time developing an AI so advanced that aims to make robots closer to humans like Dr. Light. But this could indeed no longer apply to post X1 Zero as he was rebuilt and upgraded after Reploid technology has become common.
But it is clear that questioning her own consciousness and free will is still something that Roll would not be able to do on her own or at least have trouble doing in some regard or she would become as self conscious as X, who is considered the first one to be able to do so.
Also we can not assume Light "patched" this on all Robots between MM 1-7 as some are made by Wily and other creators or have been canonically destroyed at least pre-starroid invasion, which the reports reference as a past event.
After thinking about it, I do think Zero should have this weakness. But since Zero is programmed for battle, he might just be designed to ignore and disregard thinking about such dillema at all in the middle of a fight. Wily is not the type to invest so much time developing an AI so advanced that aims to make robots closer to humans like Dr. Light. But this could indeed no longer apply to post X1 Zero as he was rebuilt and upgraded after Reploid technology has become common.
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"At the very least, if I can improve artificial intelligence so that Roll won't freeze, then that ought to be a good place to start."
As in, improve artificial intelligence in general. Kinda like a software update.
It would be weird for other doctors to use outdated IA, even Wily in Mega Man 2 given this problem with Roll is taking place shortly after the first game while MM2 takes place an entire year after.
And even if every robot Wily builds has this flaw, almost all of his robots are rebuild and reprogrammed at the end of every game, so Light wouldn't keep the flaw in, so the list would be reduces to Bass, Ballade, Reggae, Treble, uhhh... Ok, I don't really have them memorized.
As in, improve artificial intelligence in general. Kinda like a software update.
It would be weird for other doctors to use outdated IA, even Wily in Mega Man 2 given this problem with Roll is taking place shortly after the first game while MM2 takes place an entire year after.
And even if every robot Wily builds has this flaw, almost all of his robots are rebuild and reprogrammed at the end of every game, so Light wouldn't keep the flaw in, so the list would be reduces to Bass, Ballade, Reggae, Treble, uhhh... Ok, I don't really have them memorized.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,194
- 6,096
- Thread starter
- #12
1: It's still vague if all robot masters have been completely "patched" of this error and just how much the problem has been "solved" at all since X is still the first robot to be fully self aware. Even if this error was completely fixed and it doesn't contradict X being above all Classic series robots in sentience, it is still valid to be added to Mega Man's, Roll's and all MM1 Robot Master profiles as a error that once affected them but was later patched.
2: Wily has no reason to give his robots self awareness nor even know that such weakness exists at all, so i still think that X1 Zero would likely still have the weakness.
3: I think it should still apply to all robot masters due to the fact that there is no reason Light would give Roll an unique AI, but because of the good arguments you brought up, i think it is fair to put a "possibly" or "likely" before the weakness as we do not know the exact details.
2: Wily has no reason to give his robots self awareness nor even know that such weakness exists at all, so i still think that X1 Zero would likely still have the weakness.
3: I think it should still apply to all robot masters due to the fact that there is no reason Light would give Roll an unique AI, but because of the good arguments you brought up, i think it is fair to put a "possibly" or "likely" before the weakness as we do not know the exact details.
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Don't know if this is still relevant but I'll say my piece.
In my opinion, from what I saw so far, I don't think this is really necessary to add. It's likely Light fixed this already based on previous comments and why bother adding a past weakness that isn't relevant or viable at all in versus debates and was only a minor thing that briefly happened? Besides, the most important thing here is that this issue has literally never been a problem that's ever been referenced before iirc. This sounds like an ass pull from out of nowhere even if this guide book is recent and probably canon. It's like that BS weakness in his profile right now regarding sunlight, which has never been anything either and is just something theoretical.
For example, Mega Man has had instances of higher thinking which would have been existential crises moments if this weakness was true such as having the consideration to kill Wily in MM7 and questioning his actions in achieving his goal in The Power Fighters. Both instances didn't cause him to malfunction, he just went about them in a human-like way. The Robot Masters from MM9 knew of their roles in society and their expiration dates and were okay with it until Wily persuaded them that they could be of more use and that society's rules were bull yet this instance didn't cause the Robot Master's to freeze or malfunction, they just concluded that Wily was right and voluntarily allowed him to "fix" them to continue their current lives of being useful. Literally nothing has happened regarding this flaw. And why would Zero have it? For a Robot Master who's supposed to be Wily's ultimate creation that's on par with even X as a Reploid, I don't see why an old design flaw would continue to exist within his system. He's likely just called a Robot Master because he was made in the same era as Classic but he still entirely different from the likes of the Classic cast.
This is very much like those old canon scans of Mega Man's schematics where his maximum output was clocked at 1,500 horsepower or something which is a huge contradiction to the feats of power he's displayed in both Pre and Post keys and obviously isn't true. I think the same can be said here.
In my opinion, from what I saw so far, I don't think this is really necessary to add. It's likely Light fixed this already based on previous comments and why bother adding a past weakness that isn't relevant or viable at all in versus debates and was only a minor thing that briefly happened? Besides, the most important thing here is that this issue has literally never been a problem that's ever been referenced before iirc. This sounds like an ass pull from out of nowhere even if this guide book is recent and probably canon. It's like that BS weakness in his profile right now regarding sunlight, which has never been anything either and is just something theoretical.
For example, Mega Man has had instances of higher thinking which would have been existential crises moments if this weakness was true such as having the consideration to kill Wily in MM7 and questioning his actions in achieving his goal in The Power Fighters. Both instances didn't cause him to malfunction, he just went about them in a human-like way. The Robot Masters from MM9 knew of their roles in society and their expiration dates and were okay with it until Wily persuaded them that they could be of more use and that society's rules were bull yet this instance didn't cause the Robot Master's to freeze or malfunction, they just concluded that Wily was right and voluntarily allowed him to "fix" them to continue their current lives of being useful. Literally nothing has happened regarding this flaw. And why would Zero have it? For a Robot Master who's supposed to be Wily's ultimate creation that's on par with even X as a Reploid, I don't see why an old design flaw would continue to exist within his system. He's likely just called a Robot Master because he was made in the same era as Classic but he still entirely different from the likes of the Classic cast.
This is very much like those old canon scans of Mega Man's schematics where his maximum output was clocked at 1,500 horsepower or something which is a huge contradiction to the feats of power he's displayed in both Pre and Post keys and obviously isn't true. I think the same can be said here.
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