Maybe a DMC2, DMC4 and DMC5 Characters Upgrade

[Mister6ame6]

Well, lets see how this will go:

Dante and Vergil should scale to Demon King level on the same level as Sealed Mundus since is stated that a weakened Vergil can tango with him


By the time of Mundus ressurection, he was easely comanding the DW witheout interferenes despite being heavely weakend by Sparda's seal, none of the demons like Bolverk and Balrog trie to kill him when he was weakened, is even stated that the competition for survival in the demon world is so severe that those without power will have their lives taken away without mercy, even if they are of a high-ranking demon bloodline, so yeah if Mundus was not strong enougth to hold his position as the Demon King once again, he would have dies rigth there


Sealed Mundus should scale above Balrog and Bolverk in the DMC scaling and Arkham with Force Edge, DMC3 Dante and Vergil along with it


He can also sustain the Demon World which would also support him being on this level (Its on Mundus's profile already if you guys want to know where it is)


DMC4 and DMC5


Malphas should scale to a Healthy Nightmare at least since she was able to easily haxs V and his summons along with also being stated multiple times that them is not powerful or faster enough to fight or outrun her, even with powerful demons like Nightmare in their possession


Moreover, some people will use that V was running out of juice to say he cannot use Nightmare freely, but that's is false, as you can see when the summons fougth agaist Dante, they were able to be summoned by V's cage multiple times whitheout problems, and V's cage is what is empowering them in that moment


DMC4 Nero scale to DMC5 Devil Breaker Nero since his mentioned that he regained all the power he lost after training for a entire mouth and also for being able to easely defeat Malphas, who scale at least to Nightmare level


Sanctus with Devil Sword Sparda scale to DMC4 Nero since he fougth agaist Nero and hold his own well agasit him, Arkham with Force Edge scale to this Sanctus since both draw a unkwon amout of power from the sword, so he goes along with it

Nero also thouth he dind't need DSS despite knowing how strong the sword is

Higher with maximum effort, Nero was able to surpass his limits and evolve to break thouth Urizen's shield and hurt his hand, something that Dante, himself in their fist encouter, Lady and Trish was unable to do


DMC2 and BtN


Now lets go to Lucia


She near the end of the game, fought against Arius again while this time, he absorbed some power from Argosax in the incomplete ritual and was stated to be Lucia deadliest enemy she ever fought until now. Moreover, Arius was possessed, transmuted and became more powerful on each mutation until he eventually became part of Argosax himself thanks to the Demon King immense strong will and power, while Arius was also stated to have become one of the strongest demons in the series by the devs himself, but was ultimately defeated by Lucia.


Since Arius-Argosax is stated by the devs that he is one of the strongest demons in the series that would make him a Demon King level being (Well this is the strongest tier in DMC verse anyway)


Moreover, Lucia should be able to tango with Argosax since she was ready to go fight him in Dante's place, as after she became powerful and skilled enough to do on her own, afterwall, she sensed the upcoming danger (Argosax) coming in the Dumary Island and called Dante to take care of him.


She could sense betweem dimensions which is why she called Dante to take care of Argosax since her and the guardian are not a macht for him, but by the time of the later game she was stronge enougth and skilled enougth to figth him by himself whitheout Dante's help


Trained for 10 years after DMC2 events


Balrog scale farm above BtN Lucia since her thougth that she could figth him and Dante at fist, but realized she was too weak for that later after cheking their powers levels after figthing eacth others and realizing they are multiple times stronger them her

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The Ñero, Malphas, V thing has been argued in the past several times but for the sake of it I will argue against it again.

The rest are new but kinda debunked easily

 

[chosen]

Taking popcorn for now

 

[Mister6ame6]

The Ñero, Malphas, V thing has been argued in the past several times but for the sake of it I will argue against it again.

Is the entire reason that V cannot use Nigthmare is because of V's powers skill issues?, pretty sure the guidebook confirming that he can summon the trio in a very weakened state would solve this problem.

The rest are new but kinda debunked easily

Ok, i'm listining man

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, lets see how this will go:

Dante and Vergil should scale to Demon King level on the same level as Sealed Mundus since is stated that a weakened Vergil can tango with him


By the time of Mundus ressurection, he was easely comanding the DW witheout interferenes despite being heavely weakend by Sparda's seal, none of the demons like Bolverk and Balrog trie to kill him when he was weakened, is even stated that the competition for survival in the demon world is so severe that those without power will have their lives taken away without mercy, even if they are of a high-ranking demon bloodline, so yeah if Mundus was not strong enougth to hold his position as the Demon King once again, he would have dies rigth there


Sealed Mundus should scale above Balrog and Bolverk in the DMC scaling and Arkham with Force Edge, DMC3 Dante and Vergil along with it


He can also sustain the Demon World which would also support him being on this level (Its on Mundus's profile already if you guys want to know where it is)

While this is, more or less, fine, I do remember then reason why I didn't asked these characters to be Low 2-C (Current DW Tier)

Mundus sustaining the DW is something we don't know how it works, when does he start to sustain it ? After eating the Fruit ? After sitting on the throne ? Only at full power ? We also don't know if Dormant DMC1 Mundus and DMC3 Weakened Mundus are equal aswell

I'm not really against this, but I think we should clarify those questions first

Also, Nightmare should be Low 2-C by current scaling

DMC4 and DMC5


Malphas should scale to a Healthy Nightmare at least since she was able to easily haxs V and his summons along with also being stated multiple times that them is not powerful or faster enough to fight or outrun her, even with powerful demons like Nightmare in their possession


Moreover, some people will use that V was running out of juice to say he cannot use Nightmare freely, but that's is false, as you can see when the summons fougth agaist Dante, they were able to be summoned by V's cage multiple times whitheout problems, and V's cage is what is empowering them in that moment

Malphas can just remove V's summons no ? I though we agreed to not scale her to Nightmare because she was a overall bad match up for V

DMC4 Nero scale to DMC5 Devil Breaker Nero since his mentioned that he regained all the power he lost after training for a entire mouth and also for being able to easely defeat Malphas, who scale at least to Nightmare level

That's not what Nico is saying there

He got a nerf, thanks to her, he regained the power to fight, It wasn't stated he was stronger or weaker than before

However, I wouldn't be against a 2-C rating for this Nero like "at full power" or something, he did break through Urizen's shield, but it was quite obvous at that time that it wasn't his regular power level and more like a hint of his true hidden potential (Awakened in the final part of the game)

Something like "4-A, up to 2-C at maximum effort"

In anyway, we must cover what happened between him and Urizen

Sanctus with Devil Sword Sparda scale to DMC4 Nero since he fougth agaist Nero and hold his own well agasit him, Arkham with Force Edge scale to this Sanctus since both draw a unkwon amout of power from the sword, so he goes along with it

Not against this tbh, at least Sanctus should have a Likely scaling to Sanctus, not exactly solid, but one can't deny they should have similar power

DMC2 and BtN


Now lets go to Lucia


She near the end of the game, fought against Arius again while this time, he absorbed some power from Argosax in the incomplete ritual and was stated to be Lucia deadliest enemy she ever fought until now. Moreover, Arius was possessed, transmuted and became more powerful on each mutation until he eventually became part of Argosax himself thanks to the Demon King immense strong will and power, while Arius was also stated to have become one of the strongest demons in the series by the devs himself, but was ultimately defeated by Lucia.


Since Arius-Argosax is stated by the devs that he is one of the strongest demons in the series that would make him a Demon King level being (Well this is the strongest tier in DMC verse anyway)

Ehhhh

Arius-Argosax statements are quite interesting but I'm unsure if it warrants DK level of power, the "strongest enemies" in the series are Mundus (A statue), Chen (A dude), Sparda (A cockroach), Argosax (A non binary winged fire demon), but a Dragon ? Who is this guy talking about ?

Moreover, Lucia should be able to tango with Argosax since she was ready to go fight him in Dante's place, as after she became powerful and skilled enough to do on her own, afterwall, she sensed the upcoming danger (Argosax) coming in the Dumary Island and called Dante to take care of him.


She could sense betweem dimensions which is why she called Dante to take care of Argosax since her and the guardian are not a macht for him, but by the time of the later game she was stronge enougth and skilled enougth to figth him by himself whitheout Dante's help

This would work if Arius was near Argosax level, but he isn't. Also, confidence scaling is iffy by default, Lucia was in the middle of a crisis, she wanted to go because she felt her life was expendable and wished to die like a human

If she was going to die, would her really defeat Argosax ?

Trained for 10 years after DMC2 events


Balrog scale farm above BtN Lucia since her thougth that she could figth him and Dante at fist, but realized she was too weak for that later after cheking their powers levels after figthing eacth others and realizing they are multiple times stronger them her

He does scale higher than her, yeah

 

[Mister6ame6]

While this is, more or less, fine, I do remember then reason why I didn't asked these characters to be Low 2-C (Current DW Tier)

Mundus sustaining the DW is something we don't know how it works, when does he start to sustain it ? After eating the Fruit ? After sitting on the throne ? Only at full power ? We also don't know if Dormant DMC1 Mundus and DMC3 Weakened Mundus are equal aswell

I'm not really against this, but I think we should clarify those questions first

Well, undestanding what you are comming from

I aways thouth that the normal assuption is that he is sustaining the DW untill prove otherwise, because unless they explain in details how his sustaining the DW works

What you think about Sealed Mundus escaling above Bolverk and Balrog? Since DMC made pretty clear that the laws of the DW is that the most powerfull being aways rules of the weakest, he should scale above them since he was commanding the DW whitheout interferences

Not sure if we accept Balrog or Bolverk as the four great demons from the anime, but Sealed Mundus likely should be above them too since they are active in the time span of DMC3 events

Also, Nightmare should be Low 2-C by current scaling

He is 2-C actually checking his profile RN

I even got him accepted to DMC1 Dante level recently by escaling to the Urizen when he was born by escaling to his human side who was stated that if not for losing his demon side, V could use the DSS since Griffon stated that V have the heart (Minds, Soul and Will i guess) to use It, but lacks the body tho

Malphas can just remove V's summons no ? I though we agreed to not scale her to Nightmare because she was a overall bad match up for V

As far i remember the reason it got rejected in the past is because that V can't use Nigthmare for far longe which the DMC5 guidebook proves he can use it multiple times in a row

V also mention that V him and his summons cannot not only figths her, but also run from her too, hence why they aways hide from her in every encouter, plus, Nigthmare have universal/multiversal range anyway

So he can straight up kill her from a safe distance if necessary anyway

Plus she can haxs him and his summons even before they could react (Nigthmare have immesurable speed, he would have reacted to it before it could cacth him) which would give that escaling since AP=Hax=Speed

It was even a accepted some mounths ago iirc

That's not what Nico is saying there

He got a nerf, thanks to her, he regained the power to fight, It wasn't stated he was stronger or weaker than before

Well, you are not wrong there lul

I would say he got stronger them before thinking now since Nero thouth going after the DSS was useless waste of their time and energy when him and V separeted their ways

Inplying that himself got stronger enouth that the Sparda sword is not going to give him any amp or the amp is too weak to worth going for her atm

I would say Nelo Angelo or above Mundus tier is good enouth for him imo

However, I wouldn't be against a 2-C rating for this Nero like "at full power" or something, he did break through Urizen's shield, but it was quite obvous at that time that it wasn't his regular power level and more like a hint of his true hidden potential (Awakened in the final part of the game)

Something like "4-A, up to 2-C at maximum effort"

Agree have zero problem with that

In anyway, we must cover what happened between him and Urizen

Well, some argue he was holding back because of him saying that insulting him in the game

But i disagree with that since it was show that the game, manga and novel shows Dante, Nero on their fist encouter and Lady and Trish is unable to even scrath the shield while post training did what him before and the others are unable to achieve in their figths

So yeah, Urizen makes no sense if you look at the lore

Not against this tbh, at least Sanctus should have a Likely scaling to Sanctus, not exactly solid, but one can't deny they should have similar power

Well, he was stated that Sanctus got power that no order normal human can hope to achieve in their life time when he resonate with DSS, which puts him above the mid tiers at least, likely Demon King level since it is generally the tier that no normal demons can't alchieve anyway

I would say it is most likely that he is Demon King level since it is narratively consistenty that the Order of the Sword can go to Demon King tier

Since Agnus after asorbing millions of demons from the Main Hell Gate, he became so powerfull that he did go from being easely beaten by a mid game Nero to easely macthing base form DMC4 Dante in power and skill, even Dante comments on that

He only beaten when he activate his DT and them we see the scene in the game afterwards

Ehhhh

Arius-Argosax statements are quite interesting but I'm unsure if it warrants DK level of power, the "strongest enemies" in the series are Mundus (A statue), Chen (A dude), Sparda (A cockroach), Argosax (A non binary winged fire demon), but a Dragon ? Who is this guy talking about ?

My thouth was the dragon Dante summoned in DMC1 while using DSS's powers since it was suppose to be Sparda's which is strong enouth to hurt full power Mundus in that figth

Pluto was also stated to have a pet dragon in the lore, but unknow how stronge he would be since they never mention anything about him anyway

This would work if Arius was near Argosax level, but he isn't. Also, confidence scaling is iffy by default, Lucia was in the middle of a crisis, she wanted to go because she felt her life was expendable and wished to die like a human

Well, he was able to commant the Furia Taurus which was stated that early game Dante needed to use his DT inside him to defeat him along with being able to "turn everithing into Flames" (Planetary or universal statetements, i would say universal since DMC aways use the word DW and HW in a universal scale anyway)

I mean fair on Lucia, but if she just wanted to die it won't save Matier and the island since well if she was too weak to the job agaist Argosax she would die and Argosax would just turn the HW into another DW

If she was going to die, would her really defeat Argosax ?

She still wanted to Save Matier and the island, dying in vain won't save them, so i'm say she needed to be strong to at least hold her ground agaist Argosax base form, otherwise her and the others gonna die regardless imo

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, undestanding what you are comming from

I aways thouth that the normal assuption is that he is sustaining the DW untill prove otherwise, because unless they explain in details how his sustaining the DW works

What you think about Sealed Mundus escaling above Bolverk and Balrog? Since DMC made pretty clear that the laws of the DW is that the most powerfull being aways rules of the weakest, he should scale above them since he was commanding the DW whitheout interferences

Not sure if we accept Balrog or Bolverk as the four great demons from the anime, but Sealed Mundus likely should be above them too since they are active in the time span of DMC3 events

Well, both Bolverk and Balrog are Argosax's demons, and Hell is divided between factions, Mundus is rulling over his side, sure, but those two should be on a different "system"

In any way, if everyone agrees with Weakened Mundus sustaining the DW, I agree with him, DMC3 Dante, Vergil and Arkham to be Low 2-C, it's a shame to lose the 4-A tier, however, but oh well

He is 2-C actually checking his profile RN

I even got him accepted to DMC1 Dante level recently by escaling to the Urizen when he was born by escaling to his human side who was stated that if not for losing his demon side, V could use the DSS since Griffon stated that V have the heart (Minds, Soul and Will i guess) to use It, but lacks the body tho

You sure ? If that's the case, his attack potency section should be updated cuz it only mentions him destroying the Demon World (Currently a Low 2-C structure)

I have problems with such scaling, but won't press that here

As far i remember the reason it got rejected in the past is because that V can't use Nigthmare for far longe which the DMC5 guidebook proves he can use it multiple times in a row

V also mention that V him and his summons cannot not only figths her, but also run from her too, hence why they aways hide from her in every encouter, plus, Nigthmare have universal/multiversal range anyway

So he can straight up kill her from a safe distance if necessary anyway

Plus she can haxs him and his summons even before they could react (Nigthmare have immesurable speed, he would have reacted to it before it could cacth him) which would give that escaling since AP=Hax=Speed

Nightmare is still FTL, my friend, and the AP=Hax=Speed notion isn't on the profiles, u got that accepted somewhere ?

But it's true that he could potentially attack her from any distance, but it still is a complicated scenario and maybe wasn't even an option for V because he would have to deal with massive destruction

Since Nero thouth going after the DSS was useless waste of their time and energy when him and V separeted their ways

Inplying that himself got stronger enouth that the Sparda sword is not going to give him any amp or the amp is too weak to worth going for her atm

Nero was literally a hot headed brat that was confident in fighting Urizen and had his @ss handed to him. Confidence is a risky method of scaling in my opinion, depends on who's talking and what solid information they had atm, and the DSS, as Nico stated on the files, is one of Sparda's blades who nobody knows anything, surely Nero knew it was a pool of demonic power, but any assumptions he had were proven false the moment Urizen broke his confidence via feats

Agree have zero problem with that

Well, some argue he was holding back because of him saying that insulting him in the game

But i disagree with that since it was show that the game, manga and novel shows Dante, Nero on their fist encouter and Lady and Trish is unable to even scrath the shield while post training did what him before and the others are unable to achieve in their figths

So yeah, Urizen makes no sense if you look at the lore

I also disagree with Urizen holding back, and even if he did, the shield itself shouldn't be any weaker than before, Nero broke it, Nero scales to it, I support a temporary 2-C rating for his Devil Breaker key

Well, he was stated that Sanctus got power that no order normal human can hope to achieve in their life time when he resonate with DSS, which puts him above the mid tiers at least, likely Demon King level since it is generally the tier that no normal demons can't alchieve anyway

I would say it is most likely that he is Demon King level since it is narratively consistenty that the Order of the Sword can go to Demon King tier

Since Agnus after asorbing millions of demons from the Main Hell Gate, he became so powerfull that he did go from being easely beaten by a mid game Nero to easely macthing base form DMC4 Dante in power and skill, even Dante comments on that

He only beaten when he activate his DT and them we see the scene in the game afterwards

These are Deadly Fortune statements, right ?

Well...they surely are something, but Dante was never a reliable source on that matter, same thing happens with Alternate Trish matching him and apparently giving him some trouble, only for moments later he fodders Void Mundus and then Chen, nobody can deny the fact Dante holds back, he holds back a lot. If Dante was forced to use the Devil Trigger in order to match Agnus in power, then I guess it would make sense, although the notion of Agnus surpassing Mundus and Argosax by such a vast gap (Keep in mind this is DMC4 Dante) just by absorbing demons is very, very iffy, and would also contradict DSS Sanctus surpassing what any human can achieve, since he would be stronger than Agnus, who surpassed Base DMC4 Dante, who surpassed Full Power Sparda, by using just a portion of Sparda (DSS)

So Sanctus + Portion of Sparda's Power > Agnus > Base DMC4 Dante > Sparda himself ?

That doesn't make much sense

My thouth was the dragon Dante summoned in DMC1 while using DSS's powers since it was suppose to be Sparda's which is strong enouth to hurt full power Mundus in that figth

Pluto was also stated to have a pet dragon in the lore, but unknow how stronge he would be since they never mention anything about him anyway

I'd rather not fully scale Arius to these characters based on such a weak connection, he was apparently one of the strongest enemies in the series up until that point, guess that should be enough for a possibly Low 2-C (Nightmare) or 2-C (Bolverk), something around that. Bolverk isn't out of the question since both him and Arius are in DMC2 and said statement should directly cover him

Well, he was able to commant the Furia Taurus which was stated that early game Dante needed to use his DT inside him to defeat him along with being able to "turn everithing into Flames" (Planetary or universal statetements, i would say universal since DMC aways use the word DW and HW in a universal scale anyway)

Furia Taurus doing that would place him above Mundus, Void Mundus and Chen, with nothing but that statement to cover, I'd say it doesn't work

However, that "turn everithing into Flames" statement is interesting, I wonder if we have the raws for it ?

I mean fair on Lucia, but if she just wanted to die it won't save Matier and the island since well if she was too weak to the job agaist Argosax she would die and Argosax would just turn the HW into another DW

She still wanted to Save Matier and the island, dying in vain won't save them, so i'm say she needed to be strong to at least hold her ground agaist Argosax base form, otherwise her and the others gonna die regardless imo

I don't think Lucia was being logical in any way there, but even then, if Dante was still on her side, she knew if that fight caused her death, Dante could do something, Lucia saw that fight as merely a last effort to die like a human more than anything

In that game, Dante is shown to be quite casual on Lucia's actions, not stepping in on her decisions, why would he do at that point ? My bet is that he knew the only one capable of fighting Argosax was him, and didn't wanted Lucia dead for thinking she wasn't human

She would still have a Tier 2 power considering Arius, just not quite at such high level

 

[Thehunter077]

DMC3 Dante, Vergil and Arkham to be Low 2-C, it's a shame to lose the 4-A tier, however, but oh well

You affraid of your babies getting stomped eh?

 

[Thehunter077]

Kinda not sure with Arius, yeah he's strong but personally, I don't think he close to Demon King level, while Balrog itself ain't close to that level and he's not the strongest demon warrior on Argosax side(Irrc Bolverk is)

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Kinda not sure with Arius, yeah he's strong but personally, I don't think he close to Demon King level, while Balrog itself ain't close to that level and he's not the strongest demon warrior on Argosax side(Irrc Bolverk is)

Balrog was like the left hand of Argosax while Bolverk was the Right hand, so while not equal, they were close

 

[Mister6ame6]

Well, both Bolverk and Balrog are Argosax's demons, and Hell is divided between factions, Mundus is rulling over his side, sure, but those two should be on a different "system"

Well, knowing that Balrog wanted the entire DW as he mentions in BtN, i'm would say that he wanted more them Argosax's side

Even in the anime, they mentions that 'four great demons'' (Balrog likely being one of them) was fighing to see who is gonna rule the DW now that Mundus was sealed by Dante in DMC1 events

He should count as wanting Mundus's part in DMC3 events

You sure ? If that's the case, his attack potency section should be updated cuz it only mentions him destroying the Demon World (Currently a Low 2-C structure)

Its DMC man, it takes mounths to even get shit changed in the profiles

Nightmare is still FTL, my friend, and the AP=Hax=Speed notion isn't on the profiles, u got that accepted somewhere ?

From what i'm been told there was a thread about that in the past mounths, that's why i'm used that logic

But yeah, you are rigth i'm checked the profiles, is not there

Well, i almost 100% sure that id did not gonna applied in the profiles

Knowing there still some past threads with unapplied DMC stuff XD

But it's true that he could potentially attack her from any distance, but it still is a complicated scenario and maybe wasn't even an option for V because he would have to deal with massive destruction

Fair enouth about the destruction part

Althougth the manga shows that Nigthmare's did Destroy the market and did not cause much damage in the front iirc

The destruction is not that high for V to be worry in a possible figth secenario

Plus V saying that them can outrun her if is necessary to save their lives would count for that since well AP=Speed anyway

Nero was literally a hot headed brat that was confident in fighting Urizen and had his @ss handed to him. Confidence is a risky method of scaling in my opinion, depends on who's talking and what solid information they had atm, and the DSS, as Nico stated on the files, is one of Sparda's blades who nobody knows anything, surely Nero knew it was a pool of demonic power, but any assumptions he had were proven false the moment Urizen broke his confidence via feats

I mean he did what him, Dante, Lady and Trish was unable to do agaist Urizen, so i'm say him being confident have his merits

Well, i'm pretty sure the Sparda's descescendts know how strong DSS was thanks to their godly sense abilities

Plus if we count DF, Nero learned Yamato and DSS names and their skills by just resonate with them, even in DSS case, he never see the sword in his face ever

So i would say is safe to say that the Sparda boys know at least a good chunk of the DSS's powers because of Sparda's shenarigans

I also disagree with Urizen holding back, and even if he did, the shield itself shouldn't be any weaker than before, Nero broke it, Nero scales to it, I support a temporary 2-C rating for his Devil Breaker key

Zero issues there

These are Deadly Fortune statements, right ?

Well...they surely are something, but Dante was never a reliable source on that matter, same thing happens with Alternate Trish matching him and apparently giving him some trouble, only for moments later he fodders Void Mundus and then Chen, nobody can deny the fact Dante holds back, he holds back a lot. If Dante was forced to use the Devil Trigger in order to match Agnus in power, then I guess it would make sense, although the notion of Agnus surpassing Mundus and Argosax by such a vast gap (Keep in mind this is DMC4 Dante) just by absorbing demons is very, very iffy, and would also contradict DSS Sanctus surpassing what any human can achieve, since he would be stronger than Agnus, who surpassed Base DMC4 Dante, who surpassed Full Power Sparda, by using just a portion of Sparda (DSS)

So Sanctus + Portion of Sparda's Power > Agnus > Base DMC4 Dante > Sparda himself ?

That doesn't make much sense

I mean they were collecting demons and demonic materials even before DMC4 events whitheout interferences, even confirmed by Nico that they know about the generals

Despite that, they never see to have problems with demons like Balrog and Malphas wandering the DW at that time

Much less afraid of opening the Main Hell Gate which alows anything above Mid Tiers to pass thouth it (They needed Yamato to open it for a reason)

I would say that they being Demon King levels even before DSS and the Main Hell Gate amps is not that far to imagine

Unless i is mistaken, post main hell gate agnus have zero scaling with others demons with the exception of Dante, so guess this agnus macthing dante is not that hard to imagine and is not contadicted imo

I'd rather not fully scale Arius to these characters based on such a weak connection, he was apparently one of the strongest enemies in the series up until that point, guess that should be enough for a possibly Low 2-C (Nightmare) or 2-C (Bolverk), something around that. Bolverk isn't out of the question since both him and Arius are in DMC2 and said statement should directly cover him

Agree with that

Furia Taurus doing that would place him above Mundus, Void Mundus and Chen, with nothing but that statement to cover, I'd say it doesn't work

However, that "turn everithing into Flames" statement is interesting, I wonder if we have the raws for it ?

Nope as far i know just the english translation unfortanely

I don't think Lucia was being logical in any way there, but even then, if Dante was still on her side, she knew if that fight caused her death, Dante could do something, Lucia saw that fight as merely a last effort to die like a human more than anything

In that game, Dante is shown to be quite casual on Lucia's actions, not stepping in on her decisions, why would he do at that point ? My bet is that he knew the only one capable of fighting Argosax was him, and didn't wanted Lucia dead for thinking she wasn't human

She would still have a Tier 2 power considering Arius, just not quite at such high level

I mean you got fair points there my friend, but would she having tier 2 would kinda make her statetements more reliable? Since if you are already on that tier, them it makes her statetements more reasonable to consider

Plus she would scale above the guardians in the early game too considering they conbined forces can seal away Argosax for centuries, individualy they should be tier 2 by that too

Balrog was like the left hand of Argosax while Bolverk was the Right hand, so while not equal, they were close

Actually is the contrary

Balrog is the rigth hand man, Bolverk would be the left one

I willing to say he should scale to Argosax on BtN since he was confident he could take his king by himself there

He was the person that most personnaly in contact with him, plus, he was basically trested as the Sparda from Argosax's army

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Balrog is the rigth hand man, Bolverk would be the left one

Ah ok

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, knowing that Balrog wanted the entire DW as he mentions in BtN, i'm would say that he wanted more them Argosax's side

Even in the anime, they mentions that 'four great demons'' (Balrog likely being one of them) was fighing to see who is gonna rule the DW now that Mundus was sealed by Dante in DMC1 events

He should count as wanting Mundus's part in DMC3 events

How about we settle for Low 2-C, possibly 2-C then ? There is a hint that demons like Bolverk could be among the ones that didn't tried to take over Mundus' side

Its DMC man, it takes mounths to even get shit changed in the profiles

From what i'm been told there was a thread about that in the past mounths, that's why i'm used that logic

But yeah, you are rigth i'm checked the profiles, is not there

Well, i almost 100% sure that id did not gonna applied in the profiles

Knowing there still some past threads with unapplied DMC stuff XD

Yeah, it happens unfortunately, either way, I remember more or less why Nightmare would scale to an Early Urizen (who should be around Nelo Angelo's level), I'm fine with it and we can add once this is over

Fair enouth about the destruction part

Althougth the manga shows that Nigthmare's did Destroy the market and did not cause much damage in the front iirc

The destruction is not that high for V to be worry in a possible figth secenario

Plus V saying that them can outrun her if is necessary to save their lives would count for that since well AP=Speed anyway

I'll wait for Tony on this, count me as neutral for now

I mean he did what him, Dante, Lady and Trish was unable to do agaist Urizen, so i'm say him being confident have his merits

Well, i'm pretty sure the Sparda's descescendts know how strong DSS was thanks to their godly sense abilities

Plus if we count DF, Nero learned Yamato and DSS names and their skills by just resonate with them, even in DSS case, he never see the sword in his face ever

So i would say is safe to say that the Sparda boys know at least a good chunk of the DSS's powers because of Sparda's shenarigans

Okay, that DF part should be enough to show how Nero knew more or less what DSS could give him, I'd say we can leave him at 2-C, scaling to DSS amp, and a "Higher at full power", scaling to him to Urizen but only at max effort, hows that sounds ?

I mean they were collecting demons and demonic materials even before DMC4 events whitheout interferences, even confirmed by Nico that they know about the generals

Despite that, they never see to have problems with demons like Balrog and Malphas wandering the DW at that time

Much less afraid of opening the Main Hell Gate which alows anything above Mid Tiers to pass thouth it (They needed Yamato to open it for a reason)

I would say that they being Demon King levels even before DSS and the Main Hell Gate amps is not that far to imagine

Unless i is mistaken, post main hell gate agnus have zero scaling with others demons with the exception of Dante, so guess this agnus macthing dante is not that hard to imagine and is not contadicted imo

If Sanctus' statement does not cover Agnus, then I have no further issues with the later being 2-C

I'm also not against Sanctus scaling in some way to Force Edge Arkham, who's getting a Low 2-C, possibly 2-C key going by what I proposed

Nope as far i know just the english translation unfortanely

That's unfortunate, I doubt we can get anything for "turning everything to ashes" statement alone

I mean you got fair points there my friend, but would she having tier 2 would kinda make her statetements more reliable? Since if you are already on that tier, them it makes her statetements more reasonable to consider

Plus she would scale above the guardians in the early game too considering they conbined forces can seal away Argosax for centuries, individualy they should be tier 2 by that too

Well, if Arius is getting a 2-C key scaling above Bolverk, which I'm fine with, then I guess her statement has some level of logic yeah, she could put some sort of fight, but wouldn't survive and was already expecting death

Lucia should start the game at 4-A (General level) and receive a 2-C endgame key after accepting her humanity and devils never cry crap (Above Arius-Argosax who's comparable to Bolverk)

So, just to summarize my stuff here:

DMC3 Cast + Dormant Mundus = Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Sustains DW + Possibly making demons like Bolverk retreat from taking his part of the DW)

Devil Breaker Nero = 2-C (scaling to DSS, as he thought he didn't need it despite having an idea of its power), higher at maximum effort (Managed to break Urizen's shield, although can't keep this level of power with consistency)

Agnus = 2-C after consuming millions of demons (Pressured DMC4 Dante to use DT)

Sanctus = Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Scaling to Arkham + got a power no human could), Endgame Yamato DMC4 Nero scales

Arius-Argosax = 2-C (Scales to at least DMC2s strongest enemies like Bolverk)

Lucia = 2-C at endgame (Defeated Arius)

 

[Mister6ame6]

How about we settle for Low 2-C, possibly 2-C then ? There is a hint that demons like Bolverk could be among the ones that didn't tried to take over Mundus' side

I fine with that imo

But one thing to note if we accept Balrog as tier 2 because of Lucia and Arius getting on that tier, it would count as 2-C for DMC3 cast since he was active along with Bolverk in DMC3 events

So if DMC3 gets full 2-C or not depends on DMC2 cast now

Unless we aceept as 2-C only when he fougth agasit Dante in BtN events

Yeah, it happens unfortunately, either way, I remember more or less why Nightmare would scale to an Early Urizen (who should be around Nelo Angelo's level), I'm fine with it and we can add once this is over

Nice

I'll wait for Tony on this, count me as neutral for now

Sure

Okay, that DF part should be enough to show how Nero knew more or less what DSS could give him, I'd say we can leave him at 2-C, scaling to DSS amp, and a "Higher at full power", scaling to him to Urizen but only at max effort, hows that sounds ?

Looks good to me, i'm have zero problems with that.

If Sanctus' statement does not cover Agnus, then I have no further issues with the later being 2-C

I'm also not against Sanctus scaling in some way to Force Edge Arkham, who's getting a Low 2-C, possibly 2-C key going by what I proposed

Agree with that too

That's unfortunate, I doubt we can get anything for "turning everything to ashes" statement alone

Well, planetary i guess, maybe try to wank to universal since he ''can everithing to ashes'' since Agnus more and less know about Dante's reputation by the time of DMC2 events as ""A Demon King slayer" and thougth it could stall Dante long enougth for him to escape at least

Well, if Arius is getting a 2-C key scaling above Bolverk, which I'm fine with, then I guess her statement has some level of logic yeah, she could put some sort of fight, but wouldn't survive and was already expecting death

Lucia should start the game at 4-A (General level) and receive a 2-C endgame key after accepting her humanity and devils never cry crap (Above Arius-Argosax who's comparable to Bolverk)

Zero problems with that imo

 

[Mister6ame6]

So, just to summarize my stuff here:

DMC3 Cast + Dormant Mundus = Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Sustains DW + Possibly making demons like Bolverk retreat from taking his part of the DW)

Devil Breaker Nero = 2-C (scaling to DSS, as he thought he didn't need it despite having an idea of its power), higher at maximum effort (Managed to break Urizen's shield, although can't keep this level of power with consistency)

Agnus = 2-C after consuming millions of demons (Pressured DMC4 Dante to use DT)

Sanctus = Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Scaling to Arkham + got a power no human could), Endgame Yamato DMC4 Nero scales

Arius-Argosax = 2-C (Scales to at least DMC2s strongest enemies like Bolverk)

Lucia = 2-C at endgame (Defeated Arius)

I fine with that

But Balrog needed to be added since well he scale above BtN Lucia by seveal times which was much stronger them her DMC2 couterpart since she was training since them

I guess a 2-C too before BtN events since Balrog was Argosax's rigth hand even before he trie to get stronger to take his king's place

And maybe a possibly on Argosax's level in BtN since he thougth he could take his own DW by the time he fougth Dante

What you think?

 

[chosen]

I will wait for Tony too but aren't they getting Possible immeasurabke speed too

 

[Mister6ame6]

I will wait for Tony too but aren't they getting Possible immeasurabke speed too

Yeap if they a possible tier 2 key

If they get a full tier 2 key

Them they full immesurable speed imo

 

[Thehunter077]

Yeap if they a possible tier 2 key

If they get a full tier 2 key

Them they full immesurable speed imo

Unlikely for speed, yeah he's getting strong but we don't know the exact how strong he is, even though Balrog fought stronger Dante, but as we know Dante ain't even try.

I agree with possibly 2 tier key, but for speed... I'll wait Tony for this one

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I fine with that

But Balrog needed to be added since well he scale above BtN Lucia by seveal times which was much stronger them her DMC2 couterpart since she was training since them

I guess a 2-C too before BtN events since Balrog was Argosax's rigth hand even before he trie to get stronger to take his king's place

And maybe a possibly on Argosax's level in BtN since he thougth he could take his own DW by the time he fougth Dante

What you think?

I think Balrog being stronger than BTN Lucia would be enough to leave him confident in his power, I'm unsure if that alone is enough to put him above Argosax, Balrog doesn't need to be as powerful as Argosax to take over since there is no competition for him there

Balrog > BTN Lucia > DMC2 Endgame Lucia > Arius-Argosax ~= Bolverk

Quite a scaling alone

Unlikely for speed, yeah he's getting strong but we don't know the exact how strong he is, even though Balrog fought stronger Dante, but as we know Dante ain't even try.

I agree with possibly 2 tier key, but for speed... I'll wait Tony for this one

The speed will come along AP

Lucia and Arius are scaling to Bolverk (Immeasurable)

Balrog scales higher than a stronger Lucia (Immeasurable)

DMC3 Cast is scaling to Dormant Mundus' "Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" scaling (Possibly Immeasurable since that's a scaling to other 2-C Immeasurable characters)

DMC4 cast (Amped Agnus, Endgame Nero and DSS Sanctus) are scaling to Base DMC4 Dante in case for Amped Agnus (Immeasurable, of course). Sanctus is scaling to FE Arkham and Nero upscales to him

So every 2-C is Immeasurable here, every Possibly 2-C is Possibly Immeasurable

 

[Thehunter077]

Lucia and Arius are scaling to Bolverk (Immeasurable)

Are we sure that Lucia and Arius at least comparable to Bolverk? This is the same demon who become nemesis to nerfed Sparda.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Can't we scale Mundus DMC 3 to Nightmare? It seems that Nightmare has been around for thousands of years, and at the time of DMS 3, it also exists.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Are we sure that Lucia and Arius at least comparable to Bolverk? This is the same demon who become nemesis to nerfed Sparda.

The databook literally has Arius-Argosax stated to be one of the strongest enemies. You may disagree to take this into the entire series, but one cannot deny it should count DMC2 roster of demons at the very least, aka Bolverk is there, yet Arius-Argosax is among the strongest enemies of the game

The exception is Argosax, of course, since Arius-Argosax literally has a portion of power from, well, Argosax. No scaling between them

Can't we scale Mundus DMC 3 to Nightmare? It seems that Nightmare has been around for thousands of years, and at the time of DMS 3, it also exists.

Unfortunately I'd disagree with that

Power, in DMC, may give the strongest the ways to rule, however, while Nightmare is powerful, Mundus quite literally took away its free will by hax when he created it, so him being Nightmare's boss isn't covered by the "power rule"

Also @Mister6ame6 there is a problem with our first assumption about early Urizen being = Nelo Angelo and Nightmare scaling to that. Nelo Angelo literally defeated DMC1 Dante in round one and said Dante is stronger than Nightmare (Even defeating a stronger Nelo Angelo later in the game)

If Early Urizen = Nelo Angelo = Nightmare, then

DMC1 Dante > Endgame Nelo Angelo = Early Urizen = Nightmare > Nelo Angelo > DMC1 Dante > Nightmare (????)

Better to leave Nightmare at Low 2-C for destroying the current accepted size of the DW and scale Early Urizen to that

I'd also to propose Malphas possibly scaling to whatever Tier Nightmare ends up, it was the only thing I was unsure of, but doesn't sound we should hold this too much anyway, and V wanting to avoid her at all costs despite having Nightmare on his arsenal should at least indicate the possibility for them being evenly matched in power

 

[chosen]

Malphas should scale to a Healthy Nightmare at least since she was able to easily haxs V and his summons along with also being stated multiple times that them is not powerful or faster enough to fight or outrun her, even with powerful demons like Nightmare in their possession


Moreover, some people will use that V was running out of juice to say he cannot use Nightmare freely, but that's is false, as you can see when the summons fougth agaist Dante, they were able to be summoned by V's cage multiple times whitheout problems, and V's cage is what is empowering them in that moment


DMC4 Nero scale to DMC5 Devil Breaker Nero since his mentioned that he regained all the power he lost after training for a entire mouth and also for being able to easely defeat Malphas, who scale at least to Nightmare level


Sanctus with Devil Sword Sparda scale to DMC4 Nero since he fougth agaist Nero and hold his own well agasit him, Arkham with Force Edge scale to this Sanctus since both draw a unkwon amout of power from the sword, so he goes along with it

Okay 3 things

1. Nico statament just saying he has enough strength to fight not that devil breaker nero only devil arm nero lebel

2. The statament Would be talking about dmc5 devil arm nero. Who Would be far stronger than dmc4 self after 5 years tkme skip. We know sparda mfs over The years grown by massive amounts even without training

3. Trish can fight Savior, and Dante only thinks it's a bad idea due to citizens stuff and shit. dmc5 Trish got murked by 2 weakened generals. So savior and dmc4 cast for that matter arejt even generals level

If Early Urizen = Nelo Angelo = Nightmare, then

DMC1 Dante > Endgame Nelo Angelo = Early Urizen = Nightmare > Nelo Angelo > DMC1 Dante > Nightmare (????)

Btw the previous thread isn't even done yet so nightmare isn't dmc1 Brothers level

 

[Mister6ame6]

I think Balrog being stronger than BTN Lucia would be enough to leave him confident in his power, I'm unsure if that alone is enough to put him above Argosax, Balrog doesn't need to be as powerful as Argosax to take over since there is no competition for him there

Balrog > BTN Lucia > DMC2 Endgame Lucia > Arius-Argosax ~= Bolverk

Quite a scaling alone

I fine with that, i'm just thougth he could get at least a ''possibly'' on Argosax's level, but i'm fine with that too imo

Okay 3 things

1. Nico statament just saying he has enough strength to fight not that devil breaker nero only devil arm nero lebel

2. The statament Would be talking about dmc5 devil arm nero. Who Would be far stronger than dmc4 self after 5 years tkme skip. We know sparda mfs over The years grown by massive amounts even without training

I already talked this with Ligth, agree with what you are saying bro

3. Trish can fight Savior, and Dante only thinks it's a bad idea due to citizens stuff and shit. dmc5 Trish got murked by 2 weakened generals. So savior and dmc4 cast for that matter arejt even generals level

Are you sure, Dante says Trish figthing Savior is a bad ideia from the start, don't seen to inply she can tango with him imo

Sanctus was stated that he after resonate with DSS got power from the sword that no normal demon can hope to alchive in their lifetime, End Game DMC4 Nero, Sanctus with DSS far outscales Complete Savior in the scaling, so nah, there is Demon King levels among the DMC4 cast

Btw the previous thread isn't even done yet so nightmare isn't dmc1 Brothers level

Really, that's a shame i'm guess

 

[chosen]

Are you sure, Dante says Trish figthing Savior is a bad ideia from the start, don't seen to inply she can tango with him imo

his concern is the safety of the citizens rather than if trish gets slapped awat

Sanctus was stated that he after resonate with DSS got power from the sword that no normal demon can hope to alchive in their lifetime

Well yeah but

Generals are created by the demon king, not regular demon

Demon kings especially the ones who are amped like mundus (devil fruit) aren't regular demons

Even someone like bolverk is heavily implied to be ******* odin so not a regular demon

Regular demons shouldn't really give him general or beyond power

 

[Mister6ame6]

his concern is the safety of the citizens rather than if trish gets slapped awat

Oh my bad there, i'm remembered things wrong XD

Well yeah but






Regular demons shouldn't really give him general or beyond power

The Order of Sword Cast squad are not regular demons just like Arkham with FE and Arius

No normal demon can resonate and get power from portion of a DK being and survive to tell the tale

Plus both the bad guys from eacth gamesare able to achieve DK in the end of game

Sanctus also scale by narratively consistenty in the séries with the others too bad guys

 

[chosen]

The Order of Sword Cast squad are not regular demons just like Arkham with FE and Arius

Point is sanctus being above what normal demons can achieve is too vague for even general tier. Not saying any normal demon is near savior or Something

Plus both the bad guys from eacth gamesare able to achieve DK in the end of game

Dk?

Sanctus also scale by narratively consistenty in the séries with the others too bad guys

Not really. He cam be generals victim and story still Would work,

 

[Mister6ame6]

Point is sanctus being above what normal demons can achieve is too vague for even general tier. Not saying any normal demon is near savior or Something

He already scale to general tier rn


Not really, he already is able to compare to Mid Game Nero who is comparable to Incompleto Savior (Aka general tier)

This Sanctus got a power from the DS that was stated that make him reacth a tier that normal demons will never hope to achieve in their lifetime, not that hard to see what the devs want to tell in that instance

Dk?

Demon King abreviate

Not really. He cam be generals victim and story still Would work,

He already upscale from general tier even on his human form like i'm said earlier, so nah he is defenely on Arkham and Arius tier

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Power, in DMC, may give the strongest the ways to rule, however, while Nightmare is powerful, Mundus quite literally took away its free will by hax when he created it, so him being Nightmare's boss isn't covered by the "power rule"

Make sense. But I heard that Nightmare does not destroy everything around him just because he is bound by Mundus. He has no will, but he is an asshole who kills everything he sees, obeying something like Mundus. It turns out that if Mundus is weaker than Nightmare, he would not be able to stop him from destroying everything around him?

 

[chosen]

He already scale to general tier rn

Every general is 4a on profiles while savior is 4c If You Talk about profiles (meaning generala are over 6.3105064e+14 times stronger). If You Talk about the chain used for layers he like below gatekepeers https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Tanin'iver/Sandbox1?useskin=fandomdesktop

 

[Mister6ame6]

Every general is 4a on profiles while savior is 4c If You Talk about profiles (meaning generala are over 6.3105064e+14 times stronger). If You Talk about the chain used for layers he like below gatekepeershttps://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Tanin%27iver/Sandbox1?useskin=fandomdesktop

Well should be changed them just like i'm doing with Arkham with FE and Arius

Plus he did not got haxed like Arkham did with FE, which could imply he is stronger them Arkham since he controled DSS's power better them him

Anyway, lets just leave them as comparable rn to avoid making this thread big at it is

No point to keep going about this imo

There is better stuff to argue about RN imo

 

[chosen]

Well should be changed them just like i'm doing with Arkham with FE and Arius

Plus he did not got haxed like Arkham did with FE, which could imply he is stronger them Arkham since he controled DSS's power better them him

Anyway, lets just leave them as comparable rn to avoid making this thread big at it is

No point to keep going about this imo

There is better stuff to argue about RN imo

Fe Arkham > griffon and kitty > trish ~ fp savior >~ dss sanctus so no 4a upgrade afaik
But sure we can leave This for the tier 2 dmc5 pre dt dt nero, balrog, arius, lucia and dmc3 bros wank

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Mundus and the twins:

So, do you have any scans Mundus was commanding the demon world? AFAIK there is nothing stating such thing.

Bolverk is stated to be guarding Argosax temple in DMC2 meaning he likely has no interest to take the position of Demon King, after all he would have done so in the hundreds of years Argosax was sealed.

Balrog is literally weaker than Berial, it's stated in DMC5 he got the throne after Berial died and 5 years later BtN makes it clear he was still gathering power to eventually overthrow Argosax. Now if he could ever do that is a different thing.

There is literally nothing suggesting sealed Mundus would upscale from Bolverk. Balrog isn't even in the picture given the peak of his power is in DMC5, around 15 years after DMC1.

Him sustaining the demon world at this point is unknown, we know a full power unsealed Mundus sustains it but not if a sealed version does too.

DMC 4 and 5:

Malphas haxing the hell out of V and Nightmare doesn't mean she scales to them. As I explained it here, V didn't have the time or the energy to waste in a fight with her and more than that he couldn't risk getting stripped of his power (as he is running out of time), otherwise he would have gone to fight her.

Now, in the fight against Dante it is stated to be made of V's the magical residue and as explained by them in the early chapters of VoV they will die without it, that's why they tried to kill Dante as their last stand. Looking at the fight itself, the residual power of V can keep nightmare in the battle for a few seconds before he leaves and some time later is summoned again, meaning even in their last stand they can't keep Nightmare out for long periods.

All in all not a good argument given how fragile V is to Malphas in general.

DMC2 and BtN

The first scan is what makes both Arius and Lucia scale above Phantom and Mundus generals. The second scan doesn't say Arius became part of argosax, it says the power of Argosax took over Arius and his body which doesn't grant much scaling wise since we don't know how much stronger he is.

The last scan is where everything goes to hell. Arius isn't one of the strongest demons in the series, the scan says "I think the strongest looking demons tend to be humanoid dragon ones which is why we made him a dragon. We didn't want to make his appearance too weird-looking". This doesn't even say he is one of the strongest demons ever, just that the designer thinks strong demons should look like this.

With that in mind everything else you said after just doesn't work.

Lucia being ready to fight Argosax doesn't mean she is on par with him, to make an example Dante was ready to fight Mundus in DMC1 yet he got stomped by his statue form. So no, no scaling to Lucia.

Sensing between dimensions has absolutely nothing to do here.

Training for 10 years is good and all but not remotely good proof of her scaling to this level.

Now in the last scan you are misunderstanding things. Balrog isn't several times stronger, Dante is. The scan literally says "she felt powerlessness because she understood: Dante is several times stronger than her" and she questions why. The only reference to Balrog's power is that he is strong and Lucia would have a tough time dealing with him but Dante's presence would make things faster.


I disagree with this whole thread.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The last scan is where everything goes to hell. Arius isn't one of the strongest demons in the series, the scan says "I think the strongest looking demons tend to be humanoid dragon ones which is why we made him a dragon. We didn't want to make his appearance too weird-looking". This doesn't even say he is one of the strongest demons ever, just that the designer thinks strong demons should look like this.

While your other points do make sense, this one is a push

If the dev is literally saying Arius should look like a certain way because the strongest demons look a certain way, then he is, quite literally and directly, saying that Arius is one of the strongest demons, at least in that game. There is no way to not scale this form of Arius to the strongest non-Argosax demon there, it's literally what the statement is about, mentioning the design doesn't reduce it to a mere aesthetics

Also, Lucia and Arius scaling above the generals comes from Lucia nuking Phantom

• I agree with Tony that, if Bolverk is guarding the temple, Mundus shouldn't scale to him
• Tony's points on Malphas are also solid
• Mundus sustaining the DW is something unclear, but if there is a possibility, I suggest leaving his DMC3 key with a Possibly Low 2-C

I ask that we don't push this conversation much further and wait for staff at this point, otherwise this will become a DMC scaling bible with nobody willing to evaluate

Thread's TLDR:

DMC3 Cast + Weakened Mundus = 4-A (Already accepted), possibly Low 2-C (Possibly already sustains DW)

Devil Breaker Nero = 2-C (Scaling to Devil Sword Sparda, as he thought he didn't need it despite having an idea of its power), higher at maximum effort (Managed to break Urizen's shield, although can't keep this level of power with consistency)

Agnus = 2-C after consuming energy of demons and the Hell Gate (Pressured DMC4 Dante to use DT) (However I no longer agree with this as he forced Dante to DT by taking his energy away, DT being able to replenish it)

Sanctus = 4-A, possibly Low 2-C (Scaling to Arkham + got a power no human/demon could), Endgame Yamato DMC4 Nero scales

Arius-Argosax = 2-C (Scales to at least DMC2s strongest enemies like Bolverk)

Lucia = 2-C at endgame (Defeated Arius-Argosax)

Scaling to either Bolverk or DSS also grants them Immeasurable speed and LS

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You better bring the scan that "quite literally and directly" says he is one of the strongest demons.

The rest of the design argument falls to pieces when you remember the actual strongest demons look nothing like what the dev thinks they do (Mundus, Sparda, Despair, MF Dante, etc)

Even the whole ton of demons below them look nothing like that

Mundus sustaining the DW is something unclear, but if there is a possibility, I suggest leaving his DMC3 key with a Possibly Low 2-C

Why? Is there anything implying he does in thay state? This sounds like a compromise made out of nothing

 

[Mister6ame6]

Mundus and the twins:

So, do you have any scans Mundus was commanding the demon world? AFAIK there is nothing stating such thing.

Well, he is the DK is well suppose to be governing the DW

Bolverk is stated to be guarding Argosax temple in DMC2 meaning he likely has no interest to take the position of Demon King, after all he would have done so in the hundreds of years Argosax was sealed.

He literally got out later to have a remacth with Dante, so nah if Bolverk was really just stayed in one place

He would never got out from that place in the fist place

Balrog is literally weaker than Berial, it's stated in DMC5 he got the throne after Berial died and 5 years later BtN makes it clear he was still gathering power to eventually overthrow Argosax. Now if he could ever do that is a different thing.

Or there is nobody worth to command the Fire Hell at that, so after Berial's death Balrog was forced to govern in his place

You are literally saying that Balrog is 7B or weaker them that, that's he is literally commanding a army of demons from Argosax's part

Not even gonna mention that Balrog fouth with Argosax's agaist Mundus's army and will get one shot by Mundus's generals

Him sustaining the demon world at this point is unknown, we know a full power unsealed Mundus sustains it but not if a sealed version does too.

Do we have any reason that he is not sustaining the DW at that time for example? Being weaker don't means that he lost his ability and stuff

DMC 4 and 5:

Malphas haxing the hell out of V and Nightmare doesn't mean she scales to them. As I explained it here, V didn't have the time or the energy to waste in a fight with her and more than that he couldn't risk getting stripped of his power (as he is running out of time), otherwise he would have gone to fight her.

Now, in the fight against Dante it is stated to be made of V's the magical residue and as explained by them in the early chapters of VoV they will die without it, that's why they tried to kill Dante as their last stand. Looking at the fight itself, the residual power of V can keep nightmare in the battle for a few seconds before he leaves and some time later is summoned again, meaning even in their last stand they can't keep Nightmare out for long periods.

All in all not a good argument given how fragile V is to Malphas in general.

He still can summon them to one shot her fron range to save his ass which is more them enouth to kill her if she is league weaker them her

Anyway i'm already settled with a possibly for her with Light earlier

So not gonna keep up with this since i'm have better stuff to debate it

DMC2 and BtN

The first scan is what makes both Arius and Lucia scale above Phantom and Mundus generals. The second scan doesn't say Arius became part of argosax, it says the power of Argosax took over Arius and his body which doesn't grant much scaling wise since we don't know how much stronger he is.

The last scan is where everything goes to hell. Arius isn't one of the strongest demons in the series, the scan says "I think the strongest looking demons tend to be humanoid dragon ones which is why we made him a dragon. We didn't want to make his appearance too weird-looking". This doesn't even say he is one of the strongest demons ever, just that the designer thinks strong demons should look like this.

With that in mind everything else you said after just doesn't work.

Well Light kinda already ansered that so just leaving this out imo

Lucia being ready to fight Argosax doesn't mean she is on par with him, to make an example Dante was ready to fight Mundus in DMC1 yet he got stomped by his statue form. So no, no scaling to Lucia.

Sensing between dimensions has absolutely nothing to do here.

Well, considering she admited she was too weak to figth with at fist and later that she was confident could give a reasonable ideia that she is very likely power enouth to figth agaist Argosax himself

Now in the last scan you are misunderstanding things. Balrog isn't several times stronger, Dante is. The scan literally says "she felt powerlessness because she understood: Dante is several times stronger than her" and she questions why. The only reference to Balrog's power is that he is strong and Lucia would have a tough time dealing with him but Dante's presence would make things faster.

Fair with only Dante scaling above Lucia tho

 

[Mister6ame6]

You better bring the scan that "quite literally and directly" says he is one of the strongest demons.

The rest of the design argument falls to pieces when you remember the actual strongest demons look nothing like what the dev thinks they do (Mundus, Sparda, Despair, MF Dante, etc)

Dante summoning a dragon with is very likely is Sparda's pet and can hurt Full Power tells otherwise imo

The devs are including him when they talking about it

 

[Lightning_XXI]

You better bring the scan that "quite literally and directly" says he is one of the strongest demons.

That's the Arius scan Mister used, it's linked above

The rest of the design argument falls to pieces when you remember the actual strongest demons look nothing like what the dev thinks they do (Mundus, Sparda, Despair, MF Dante, etc)

Even the whole ton of demons below them look nothing like that

The scaling isn't using Demon Kings, so I missed your point here

Dragon-like features may include wings, scales, extra limbs, large size, types of attacks, but the point here is him justifying his design choice for Arius, that being him being among the strongest enemies, you're focusing too much on the visuals and missing the very point of the statement

Why? Is there anything implying he does in thay state? This sounds like a compromise made out of nothing

Can you point how or when Mundus sustains the DW or not ? What makes him start sustaining it, his status as King ? His very existence ? Why would him simply start to sustain it between DMC3 and DMC1 ?

By going with Visions of V, Mundus could already access his full form right after defeating Vergil and making Nelo Angelo out of him, yet his Statue Form in DMC1 is sustaining the DW, so the possibility of said feat being already happening for him is there, it's nothing concrete, however

You are literally saying that Balrog is 7B or weaker them that, that's he is literally commanding a army of demons from Argosax's part

Not even gonna mention that Balrog fouth with Argosax's agaist Mundus's army and will get one shot by Mundus's generals

We don't have proof Balrog fought any of the Generals

Also, Balrog from years ago can be weaker than BTN Balrog, as only his later version had a shard of Yamato + Was gathering Power

BTN Balrog > Berial > Past Balrog is perfectly possible

 

[Mister6ame6]

We don't have proof Balrog fought any of the Generals

Also, Balrog from years ago can be weaker than BTN Balrog, as only his later version had a shard of Yamato + Was gathering Power

BTN Balrog > Berial > Past Balrog is perfectly possible

Well, even if wanna take that they never fougth Mundus's army despite being from the DK's army rival

But he still needed to command Argosax's army when he was absent, unless you are saying that there is no 4-C or 4-A around there

Balrog would have to scale to that tier anyway by having the power to command Argosax's army, even inclunding Bolverk there imo

 

[chosen]

Yeah looking mofe into it. Argosax Arius scan to vague for bolverk tier. It would be whem dmc2 waa made as he is explaining the design choice made when making dmc2

So it's bassically mundus, argosax, nightmare, bolverk, pluto
He can be below the demon kings and bolverk but above nightmare and scan would still be true. As arius would be top 5 strongest demons (still one of the strongest ones) or top 6 If we still put nightmare>