ShionAH
He/Him- 17,043
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Maxwell vs Shadow (GRACE)
- Thread starter Robo432343
- Start date
ShionAH
He/Him- 17,043
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Same goes for maxwell lol, shadow will just die or get incapped before he can fight. He is on maxwells finger tipswhat would shadow even start off with? it depends on the player what he doesiirc
ShionAH
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Yes? His fate hax fully activates if he dies. Thats what the supporters seem to say
ShionAH
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Yes but if he stops wanting or being able to think or if his fate changes depending on the situation it wont work. Thats what we discussed above bruh
ShionAH
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Conceptual manipulation goes brrr
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I said I may go for Maxwell, not that I already did. Again Shadow's fate hax in the story is delayed because there are constantly people who use the same fate hax to change the fate into what they want to happen. These people only delay the fate of the world deemed by Shadow's will because they want to do the complete opposite of what he does. For fate to never stay in one place and never advance anywhere because people in the verse wish for opposite things, historical importance is essential for this mechanism to work. For example I have fate hax and I have a medium level historical importance and I want to stop the world from being destroyed. Shadow also has the same fate hax, but his historical importance level is very high. Shadow wants to do the complete opposite of what I want to do: he wants to destroy the world. Both of our wishes clash with each other, so I fate hax the world into not dying, while he simultaneously fate haxes the world into dying. Its a constant struggle, but because Shadow is simply more important, more influential in the history of the world his wish is predetermined to come out on top sooner or later, so fate is that his wish will become true. Now imagine that in the story it isn't just one person like me who opposes his wish, but many others, some of which are even more important than me by a long shot. His fate hax gets delayed even more through a constant struggle against wishes, but it is inevitable that in the end, sooner or later, his wish is the one that becomes reality (since he is the most important person in the world).
And now imagine that Maxwell does not have the ability to fate hax with his wishes. He is completely out of this mechanism as a whole. There is no struggle. Shadow's wish does not have to fight against another one which is opposite to his. And so Maxwell cannot use fate hax to combat Shadow's fate hax. There is no delay to Shadow's wish becoming true, and so the moment he would start to want to defeat Maxwell, fate hax would immediately activate.
And now imagine that Maxwell does not have the ability to fate hax with his wishes. He is completely out of this mechanism as a whole. There is no struggle. Shadow's wish does not have to fight against another one which is opposite to his. And so Maxwell cannot use fate hax to combat Shadow's fate hax. There is no delay to Shadow's wish becoming true, and so the moment he would start to want to defeat Maxwell, fate hax would immediately activate.
ShionAH
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Okay cool and all but Maxwell will still win since he will delay the fate and incap for 24 hrs. Fate hax might kill Maxwell but we are not even sure since it didnt show death hax right?
Emphathic and Mind hax on a conceptual scale.
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How would Maxwell even delay the fate hax? He doesn't have the fate hax to prevent Shadow's fate hax from being instant.
By SBA these guys start instantly with the goal of defeating their opponent.
By SBA these guys start instantly with the goal of defeating their opponent.
ShionAH
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Because the fate hax instantly works if he is dead and you said that it still took a chain reaction from shadows death to fullfill his fate. Fate hax isnt actıally a insta win just an eventual win but in 24hrs maxwell wil win with incap. Unless you arr saying maxwell will somehow instanly die because fatehax has shown instant death. Since verses are equalized would maxwells importance be important?
ShionAH
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Thats not what I said. I dont think it has shown to be instant death or anything anywhere, literally when shadow died it took a chain reaction to fullfill his fate
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Verses being equalized would imply giving Maxwell borderline fate hax as an ability as well. Unless he has some sort of Power Mimicry he cannot gain access to this fate hax mechanism. It is something that only characters in the SF verse have. I don't know the story of Scribblenauts but I assume Maxwell achieving his goals in the story was never described or stated as him changing the fate of the world for this to happen. In SF3, people achieving their goals is described / stated as a direct result of them changing the fate of the world.
ShionAH
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Eventually.
I see. Anyways so I still dont see how the adjectives I listed are not enough to conclude this match. Shadow CAN win with fate hax and Maxwell CAN win with incap or other haxes, max just has more options
Fairverses can be equalized only if the energy systems are the same. shadow uses shadow energy and maxwell uses something completely different
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It did. In Itu's Plane story arc Shadow still wants to destroy the world but he is not killed by Descendant or anybody else, and he only dies the moment the Accelerator gets activated (something something the Accelerator is around 5-B and he's 8-C) when suddenly Shadow Mind becomes disgusted with how the world and its people are, so it goes out of its way to destroy the world. In a way his wish got fufilled: the world got destroyed. It's just that he wasn't aware that he would've died along with it. That never crossed his mind.
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I think it depends how fast it takes Maxwell to put adjectives on Shadow. Is him putting adjectives on Shadow faster than Shadow starts to want to defeat Maxwell? Its like a quick draw.
ShionAH
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Like I said shadow never insta kills with fate hax. Maxwell can just change what he thinks or what he wants with adjectives. At worst he punches the ground and makes it a incon or smth.
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Right. Unless there's something that passively, instantly causes Shadow to not think or want to defeat his opponent, his fate hax instantly activates, as its thought based.
ShionAH
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I think you are misunderstanding me. Fate hax needs time to fulfill the destiny and never insta death. Max can make him friendly then shadow will make it so “Now I want maxwell to win”
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But yet again in verse there's a character who studied this fate hax mechanism and people using it, and in one of his examples regarding how this ability works he describes it as activating so fast that the user would not even remember how they managed to achieve their goal.
Edit: the example in question
ShionAH
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The thing is unless it has shown capacity to be able to insta kill someone before they do anything its not enough. You gave me examples and every time it took time for shadow to win.
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It never instantly killed someone while the user was alive, but it can be able to activate and grant a wish so fast that the user would not even remember what they went through to achieve their goal. In verse this speed is related to how important the user is to the world, and Shadow is the most important of them all. In verse he is a very potent user of this fate hax, but his competition is always those second to him in importance and many others, thus delaying his fate hax.
ShionAH
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So you are saying battle starts and shadow instanly wins without a reason expect for "fate hax gg"?
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Im afraid so.
ShionAH
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Hmm Ig its a stomp but are we sure thats how it works? Should we bring other shadow supporters? If not we can make this a fair incon match by bloodlusting both of them.
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I'd galdly take some imput from other Shadow supporters, to see what they have to say. Not to sound arrogant but I doubt many people who follow the verse actually went out of their way to dive into the most obscure corners of the internet to find dialogues with feats from a storyline hidden behind a subscription paywall and that is poorly indexed by those who actually bought that subscription. Sadly it is this exact storyline that dives into this fate hax mechanism the most. Hell, even my "lore nerd" friends are constantly searching for character dialogues from this storyline to this day, since you can't unlock them all in one sitting: you only get a few of them every day, and sometimes they are repeated. And this dialogue indeed comes from this storyline, which can lead many to confusion since they can't easily find it on the internet posted somewhere.
Otherwise I wouldn't be against a Bloodlusted Incon if OP wishes to change the rules of the fight. It sounds fun.
ShionAH
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ngl shadow fight was my childhood but I was not expecting a low 2-c rating AND a fate hax lol obviously as a kid I had no idea about the lore
ShionAH
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ShionAH
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he can but shadow will win with fate hax anyways also not really ICmaxwell has some wincons like AP
he can beat the shit out of shadow
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We could either go by:
1. Shadow's fate hax instantly activates, since unlike in his verse there isn't anybody to change the fate of the world with their own fate haxes, so Shadow's fate hax shouldn't be delayed because there aren't any people to tamper with it with their own fate haxes. He would achieve his goal so effortlessly that he wouldn't remember anything he went through to defeat Maxwell. Which sounds crazy, but Stranger tells in one of his notes that this fate hax works just like that.
or
2. Shadow's fate hax would take some time to activate while he's alive, but would still instantly activate the moment he dies, IF he dies WITH the wish to defeat Maxwell, it would cause Maxwell to die in whatever way imaginable soon after. Although this gives Maxwell opportunities to change Shadow's will with specific adjectives and then finish him off, nullifying the fate hax kill after Shadow's death.
Honestly it would be useful to see some other people choose from these two outcomes. I honestly vote inconclusive, as we don't know for sure if such fate hax is instant or not while he's alive in an out-of-verse scenario. But if people agree with the nr. 2 scenario, I would jump the boat and give this to Maxwell by sheer fact that the outcome of the battle (incon or Maxwell victory) would be decided based on what Maxwell would do, while Shadow would have little to no say in the whole thing.
1. Shadow's fate hax instantly activates, since unlike in his verse there isn't anybody to change the fate of the world with their own fate haxes, so Shadow's fate hax shouldn't be delayed because there aren't any people to tamper with it with their own fate haxes. He would achieve his goal so effortlessly that he wouldn't remember anything he went through to defeat Maxwell. Which sounds crazy, but Stranger tells in one of his notes that this fate hax works just like that.
or
2. Shadow's fate hax would take some time to activate while he's alive, but would still instantly activate the moment he dies, IF he dies WITH the wish to defeat Maxwell, it would cause Maxwell to die in whatever way imaginable soon after. Although this gives Maxwell opportunities to change Shadow's will with specific adjectives and then finish him off, nullifying the fate hax kill after Shadow's death.
Honestly it would be useful to see some other people choose from these two outcomes. I honestly vote inconclusive, as we don't know for sure if such fate hax is instant or not while he's alive in an out-of-verse scenario. But if people agree with the nr. 2 scenario, I would jump the boat and give this to Maxwell by sheer fact that the outcome of the battle (incon or Maxwell victory) would be decided based on what Maxwell would do, while Shadow would have little to no say in the whole thing.
ShionAH
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What would happen if Maxwell starts spamming anti monitors? Would shadow change his fate to "I want to defeat anti monitors" and give maxwell the dub?
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I think it would be the same case scenario as in SF3's story, where the anti-monitors would only be an obstacle standing in his way of defeating Maxwell. Shadow wanted to destroy the world, and to achieve that he had to kill Descendant first in order to get their Shadow Mind and activate the Accelerator with it, to nuke the planet. They fought, Descendant defeated Shadow and the game instantly snaps to a cutscene where Shadow lays dead on the floor. We can't know exactly what he was thinking the moment he died, but as it stands the world still ended right after his death. Apparently it doesn't seem like his world-ending fate hax was nullified, and that's likely because defeating Descendant was only a sub-goal in order to achieve his main goal (to destroy the world). Maxwell's anti-monitors would be like the Descendant in this case, where defeating them is only a sub-goal needed to achieve his main goal (to defeat Maxwell). And so even if he dies from the anti-monitors while he wanted to defeat them, even after his death his main goal (defeating Maxwell) would still remain and it would still be achieved. I should note that Descendant also dies by Moira's hand (fate hax has been shown before to manipulate how other characters act too, so it made Moira kill Descendant even though she was begging Shadow to not kill Descendant moments before, because Descendant was one of her closest friends) after they defeat Shadow, and following that comes the end of the world. So even his sub-goal to defeat Descendant was granted, followed up by his main goal coming to fruition.
ShionAH
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I mean yeah true and all but I realized something since the range is 4km wouldn't shadow have to know who is fighting to use his fate hax? What if he comes across a antimonitor and not maxwell?
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He is really just very narrow-minded as a character, which makes him somewhat easy to trick with lies and the likes. In combat his skill alone is the reason why nobody ever was able to defeat him in a direct hand-to-hand fight. He is an adept user of many different weapon categories, his fighting style is stated in SF2 to be unique and nobody else seems to use it. His skill is passed down to his Descendant, who also has many statements regarding them as having incredibly fast learning capabilities when compared to other students of martial arts, and obviously being able to defeat and overcome other skilled warriors too. He's just very good at hand-to-hand combat and it is why everybody in SF3 is scared of facing him head-on. In SF3 he's got some nice intelligence feats as well. He travelled to the distant future to collect scientific knowledge and came back to the present where he build shadow bots which were leagues ahead in technology compared to those of Master Okada, who is a literal genius having boosted his brain with Shadow Energy to unprecedented levels of intelligence, and is the most well-known shadow bot creator in the world. Some fans assume Shadow also got the gist of advanced technologies from all the time he spent in the Shadow World in SF2.
ShionAH
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Anyways does he need to see the opponent or know them to use fate hax? Can't he mistake anti monitor for his opponent?
I downloaded the game and I was right stoned characters lose their minds and thoughts as well
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Yes, he only has to start wanting to do that. But going by SBA he should know by default who his main target is: Knowledge of the other character/verse: The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch (or equivalent). It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either. Aside from this, the characters have no knowledge of each other.
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That should mean he kills Shadow then, I think.
That's another win con, then.
