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Maxwell vs Shadow (GRACE)

What difference would an equal LS even do anyways. Shadow's win con is fate hax, and there's even the possibility that his fate hax is instant without the need of him dying since unlike every opponent in his verse which has built-in fate hax Maxwell lacks this mechanism. Again, Stranger who studied this fate hax mechanism his entire life even describes it simply in this example. "And if your importance index is high", Shadow's imaportance index is not just high, but the biggest in the world at specific points in the story. He would defeat Maxwell so effortlessly and quickly he would not even be able to remember how he did it.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
What difference would an equal LS even do anyways. Shadow's win con is fate hax, and there's even the possibility that his fate hax is instant without the need of him dying since unlike every opponent in his verse which has built-in fate hax Maxwell lacks this mechanism. Again, Stranger who studied this fate hax mechanism his entire life even describes it simply in this example. "And if your importance index is high", Shadow's imaportance index is not just high, but the biggest in the world at specific points in the story. He would defeat Maxwell so effortlessly and quickly he would not even be able to remember how he did it.
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I was just saying how funny the LS difference is, Maxwell kills shadow its an incon but if Maxwell incaps before he can win. You said it yourself thats how shadow was once defeated with incapping
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
What difference would an equal LS even do anyways. Shadow's win con is fate hax, and there's even the possibility that his fate hax is instant without the need of him dying since unlike every opponent in his verse which has built-in fate hax Maxwell lacks this mechanism. Again, Stranger who studied this fate hax mechanism his entire life even describes it simply in this example. "And if your importance index is high", Shadow's imaportance index is not just high, but the biggest in the world at specific points in the story. He would defeat Maxwell so effortlessly and quickly he would not even be able to remember how he did it.
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why would we assume shadow's fate hax can be used when hes about to die in the first place? with the index, the fate hax would be already on without shadow even realizing
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
What difference would an equal LS even do anyways. Shadow's win con is fate hax, and there's even the possibility that his fate hax is instant without the need of him dying since unlike every opponent in his verse which has built-in fate hax Maxwell lacks this mechanism. Again, Stranger who studied this fate hax mechanism his entire life even describes it simply in this example. "And if your importance index is high", Shadow's imaportance index is not just high, but the biggest in the world at specific points in the story. He would defeat Maxwell so effortlessly and quickly he would not even be able to remember how he did it.
Click to expand...
 
ShionAH said:
Same goes for maxwell lol, shadow will just die or get incapped before he can fight. He is on maxwells finger tips
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shadow has the intention of winning against maxwell at the start of the fight and thats where the fate hax comes in
 
Robo said:
not really. his will is always just gonna be fulfilled no matter what happens
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Yes but if he stops wanting or being able to think or if his fate changes depending on the situation it wont work. Thats what we discussed above bruh
 
ShionAH said:
Yes but if he stops wanting or being able to think or if his fate changes depending on the situation it wont work. Thats what we discussed above bruh
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i doubt maxwell is gonna change shadows decision because of his resistance to shit like social influencing, mind manip, morality manip, empathic manip
 
I said I may go for Maxwell, not that I already did. Again Shadow's fate hax in the story is delayed because there are constantly people who use the same fate hax to change the fate into what they want to happen. These people only delay the fate of the world deemed by Shadow's will because they want to do the complete opposite of what he does. For fate to never stay in one place and never advance anywhere because people in the verse wish for opposite things, historical importance is essential for this mechanism to work. For example I have fate hax and I have a medium level historical importance and I want to stop the world from being destroyed. Shadow also has the same fate hax, but his historical importance level is very high. Shadow wants to do the complete opposite of what I want to do: he wants to destroy the world. Both of our wishes clash with each other, so I fate hax the world into not dying, while he simultaneously fate haxes the world into dying. Its a constant struggle, but because Shadow is simply more important, more influential in the history of the world his wish is predetermined to come out on top sooner or later, so fate is that his wish will become true. Now imagine that in the story it isn't just one person like me who opposes his wish, but many others, some of which are even more important than me by a long shot. His fate hax gets delayed even more through a constant struggle against wishes, but it is inevitable that in the end, sooner or later, his wish is the one that becomes reality (since he is the most important person in the world).

And now imagine that Maxwell does not have the ability to fate hax with his wishes. He is completely out of this mechanism as a whole. There is no struggle. Shadow's wish does not have to fight against another one which is opposite to his. And so Maxwell cannot use fate hax to combat Shadow's fate hax. There is no delay to Shadow's wish becoming true, and so the moment he would start to want to defeat Maxwell, fate hax would immediately activate.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
I said I may go for Maxwell, not that I already did. Again Shadow's fate hax in the story is delayed because there are constantly people who use the same fate hax to change the fate into what they want to happen. These people only delay the fate of the world deemed by Shadow's will because they want to do the complete opposite of what he does. For fate to never stay in one place and never advance anywhere because people in the verse wish for opposite things, historical importance is essential for this mechanism to work. For example I have fate hax and I have a medium level historical importance and I want to stop the world from being destroyed. Shadow also has the same fate hax, but his historical importance level is very high. Shadow wants to do the complete opposite of what I want to do: he wants to destroy the world. Both of our wishes clash with each other, so I fate hax the world into not dying, while he simultaneously fate haxes the world into dying. Its a constant struggle, but because Shadow is simply more important, more influential in the history of the world his wish is predetermined to come out on top sooner or later, so fate is that his wish will become true. Now imagine that in the story it isn't just one person like me who opposes his wish, but many others, some of which are even more important than me by a long shot. His fate hax gets delayed even more through a constant struggle against wishes, but it is inevitable that in the end, sooner or later, his wish is the one that becomes reality.

And now imagine that Maxwell does not have the ability to fate hax with his wishes. He is completely out of this mechanism as a whole. There is no struggle. Shadow's wish does not have to fight against another one which is opposite to his. And so Maxwell cannot use fate hax to combat Shadow's fate hax. There is no delay to Shadow's wish becoming true, and so the moment he would start to want to defeat Maxwell, fate hax would immediately activate.
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Okay cool and all but Maxwell will still win since he will delay the fate and incap for 24 hrs. Fate hax might kill Maxwell but we are not even sure since it didnt show death hax right?
Robo said:
how is cm changing shadows fate decision
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Emphathic and Mind hax on a conceptual scale.
 
I am still not understanding how making shadow friendly is not an automatic wincon or mad or stone or paralyzed or scared or dumb?
 
How would Maxwell even delay the fate hax? He doesn't have the fate hax to prevent Shadow's fate hax from being instant.

By SBA these guys start instantly with the goal of defeating their opponent.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
How would Maxwell even delay the fate hax? He doesn't have the fate hax to prevent Shadow's fate hax from being instant.
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Because the fate hax instantly works if he is dead and you said that it still took a chain reaction from shadows death to fullfill his fate. Fate hax isnt actıally a insta win just an eventual win but in 24hrs maxwell wil win with incap. Unless you arr saying maxwell will somehow instanly die because fatehax has shown instant death. Since verses are equalized would maxwells importance be important?
 
ShionAH said:
Becausr the fate hax instantly works if he is dead and you said that it still took a chain reaction from shadows death to fullfill his fate. Fate hax isnt actıally a insta win just an eventual win but in 24hrs maxwell wil win with incap. Unless you arr saying maxwell will somehow instanly die because fatehax has shown instant death
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The fate hax works instantly in the beginning and in the end
 
Robo said:
The fate hax works instantly in the beginning and in the end
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Thats not what I said. I dont think it has shown to be instant death or anything anywhere, literally when shadow died it took a chain reaction to fullfill his fate
 
ShionAH said:
Because the fate hax instantly works if he is dead and you said that it still took a chain reaction from shadows death to fullfill his fate. Fate hax isnt actıally a insta win just an eventual win but in 24hrs maxwell wil win with incap. Unless you arr saying maxwell will somehow instanly die because fatehax has shown instant death. Since verses are equalized would maxwells importance be important?
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Verses being equalized would imply giving Maxwell borderline fate hax as an ability as well. Unless he has some sort of Power Mimicry he cannot gain access to this fate hax mechanism. It is something that only characters in the SF verse have. I don't know the story of Scribblenauts but I assume Maxwell achieving his goals in the story was never described or stated as him changing the fate of the world for this to happen. In SF3, people achieving their goals is described / stated as a direct result of them changing the fate of the world.
 
verses can be equalized only if the energy systems are the same. shadow uses shadow energy and maxwell uses something completely different 💀

"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."
 
Robo said:
His fate hax worked without him dying too?
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Eventually.
Dashio_Tessai said:
Verses being equalized would imply giving Maxwell borderline fate hax as an ability as well. Unless he has some sort of Power Mimicry he cannot gain access to this fate hax mechanism. It is something that only characters in the SF verse have. I don't know the story of Scribblenauts but I assume Maxwell achieving his goals in the story was never described or stated as him changing the fate of the world for this to happen. In SF3, people achieving their goals is described / stated as a direct result of them changing the fate of the world.
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I see. Anyways so I still dont see how the adjectives I listed are not enough to conclude this match. Shadow CAN win with fate hax and Maxwell CAN win with incap or other haxes, max just has more options
Robo said:
verses can be equalized only if the energy systems are the same. shadow uses shadow energy and maxwell uses something completely different 💀
Click to expand...
Fair
 
Robo said:
His fate hax worked without him dying too?
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It did. In Itu's Plane story arc Shadow still wants to destroy the world but he is not killed by Descendant or anybody else, and he only dies the moment the Accelerator gets activated (something something the Accelerator is around 5-B and he's 8-C) when suddenly Shadow Mind becomes disgusted with how the world and its people are, so it goes out of its way to destroy the world. In a way his wish got fufilled: the world got destroyed. It's just that he wasn't aware that he would've died along with it. That never crossed his mind.
 
ShionAH said:
I see. Anyways so I still dont see how the adjectives I listed are not enough to conclude this match. Shadow CAN win with fate hax and Maxwell CAN win with incap or other haxes, max just has more options
Click to expand...
I think it depends how fast it takes Maxwell to put adjectives on Shadow. Is him putting adjectives on Shadow faster than Shadow starts to want to defeat Maxwell? Its like a quick draw.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
I think it depends how fast it takes Maxwell to put adjectives on Shadow. Is him putting adjectives on Shadow faster than Shadow starts to want to defeat Maxwell? Its like a quick draw.
Click to expand...
shadow wanting to defeat maxwell is automatic via sba while maxwell writing isn't long either, but takes time
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
I think it depends how fast it takes Maxwell to put adjectives on Shadow. Is him putting adjectives on Shadow faster than Shadow starts to want to defeat Maxwell? Its like a quick draw.
Click to expand...
Like I said shadow never insta kills with fate hax. Maxwell can just change what he thinks or what he wants with adjectives. At worst he punches the ground and makes it a incon or smth.
 
Robo said:
shadow wanting to defeat maxwell is automatic via sba while maxwell writing isn't long either, but takes time
Click to expand...
Right. Unless there's something that passively, instantly causes Shadow to not think or want to defeat his opponent, his fate hax instantly activates, as its thought based.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
Right. Unless there's something that passively, instantly causes Shadow to not think or want to defeat his opponent, his fate hax instantly activates, as its thought based.
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I think you are misunderstanding me. Fate hax needs time to fulfill the destiny and never insta death. Max can make him friendly then shadow will make it so “Now I want maxwell to win”
 
ShionAH said:
Like I said shadow never insta kills with fate hax. Maxwell can just change what he thinks or what he wants with adjectives. At worst he punches the ground and makes it a incon or smth.
Click to expand...
But yet again in verse there's a character who studied this fate hax mechanism and people using it, and in one of his examples regarding how this ability works he describes it as activating so fast that the user would not even remember how they managed to achieve their goal.

Edit: the example in question
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
But yet again in verse there's a character who studied this fate hax mechanism and people using it, and in one of his examples regarding how this ability works he describes it as activating so fast that the user would not even remember how they managed to achieve their goal.
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The thing is unless it has shown capacity to be able to insta kill someone before they do anything its not enough. You gave me examples and every time it took time for shadow to win.
 
ShionAH said:
The thing is unless it has shown capacity to be able to insta kill someone before they do anything its not enough. You gave me examples and every time it took time for shadow to win.
Click to expand...
It never instantly killed someone while the user was alive, but it can be able to activate and grant a wish so fast that the user would not even remember what they went through to achieve their goal. In verse this speed is related to how important the user is to the world, and Shadow is the most important of them all. In verse he is a very potent user of this fate hax, but his competition is always those second to him in importance and many others, thus delaying his fate hax.
 
Dashio_Tessai said:
It never instantly killed someone while the user was alive, but it can be able to activate and grant a wish so fast that the user would not even remember what they went through to achieve their goal. In verse this speed is related to how important the user is to the world, and Shadow is the most important of them all. In verse he is a very potent user of this fate hax, but his competition is always those second to him in importance and many others, thus delaying his fate hax.
Click to expand...
So you are saying battle starts and shadow instanly wins without a reason expect for "fate hax gg"?
 
ShionAH said:
Hmm Ig its a stomp but are we sure thats how it works? Should we bring other shadow supporters? If not we can make this a fair incon match by bloodlusting both of them.
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I'd galdly take some imput from other Shadow supporters, to see what they have to say. Not to sound arrogant but I doubt many people who follow the verse actually went out of their way to dive into the most obscure corners of the internet to find dialogues with feats from a storyline hidden behind a subscription paywall and that is poorly indexed by those who actually bought that subscription. Sadly it is this exact storyline that dives into this fate hax mechanism the most. Hell, even my "lore nerd" friends are constantly searching for character dialogues from this storyline to this day, since you can't unlock them all in one sitting: you only get a few of them every day, and sometimes they are repeated. And this dialogue indeed comes from this storyline, which can lead many to confusion since they can't easily find it on the internet posted somewhere.

Otherwise I wouldn't be against a Bloodlusted Incon if OP wishes to change the rules of the fight. It sounds fun.
 
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