ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
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ngl shadow fight was my childhood but I was not expecting a low 2-c rating AND a fate hax lol obviously as a kid I had no idea about the lore
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Maxwell vs Shadow (GRACE)
- Thread starter Robo432343
- Start date
- 10,174
- 3,778
- Thread starter
- #82
the shadow supports are inactive (most of them). one guy got banned from the wiki and tacticalnuke doesn't remember much. there's only elizhaa and dashio 
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
- 10,174
- 3,778
- Thread starter
- #85
maxwell has some wincons like AP 
he can beat the shit out of shadow
he can beat the shit out of shadow
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
he can but shadow will win with fate hax anyways also not really ICmaxwell has some wincons like AP
he can beat the shit out of shadow
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We could either go by:
1. Shadow's fate hax instantly activates, since unlike in his verse there isn't anybody to change the fate of the world with their own fate haxes, so Shadow's fate hax shouldn't be delayed because there aren't any people to tamper with it with their own fate haxes. He would achieve his goal so effortlessly that he wouldn't remember anything he went through to defeat Maxwell. Which sounds crazy, but Stranger tells in one of his notes that this fate hax works just like that.
or
2. Shadow's fate hax would take some time to activate while he's alive, but would still instantly activate the moment he dies, IF he dies WITH the wish to defeat Maxwell, it would cause Maxwell to die in whatever way imaginable soon after. Although this gives Maxwell opportunities to change Shadow's will with specific adjectives and then finish him off, nullifying the fate hax kill after Shadow's death.
Honestly it would be useful to see some other people choose from these two outcomes. I honestly vote inconclusive, as we don't know for sure if such fate hax is instant or not while he's alive in an out-of-verse scenario. But if people agree with the nr. 2 scenario, I would jump the boat and give this to Maxwell by sheer fact that the outcome of the battle (incon or Maxwell victory) would be decided based on what Maxwell would do, while Shadow would have little to no say in the whole thing.
1. Shadow's fate hax instantly activates, since unlike in his verse there isn't anybody to change the fate of the world with their own fate haxes, so Shadow's fate hax shouldn't be delayed because there aren't any people to tamper with it with their own fate haxes. He would achieve his goal so effortlessly that he wouldn't remember anything he went through to defeat Maxwell. Which sounds crazy, but Stranger tells in one of his notes that this fate hax works just like that.
or
2. Shadow's fate hax would take some time to activate while he's alive, but would still instantly activate the moment he dies, IF he dies WITH the wish to defeat Maxwell, it would cause Maxwell to die in whatever way imaginable soon after. Although this gives Maxwell opportunities to change Shadow's will with specific adjectives and then finish him off, nullifying the fate hax kill after Shadow's death.
Honestly it would be useful to see some other people choose from these two outcomes. I honestly vote inconclusive, as we don't know for sure if such fate hax is instant or not while he's alive in an out-of-verse scenario. But if people agree with the nr. 2 scenario, I would jump the boat and give this to Maxwell by sheer fact that the outcome of the battle (incon or Maxwell victory) would be decided based on what Maxwell would do, while Shadow would have little to no say in the whole thing.
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
What would happen if Maxwell starts spamming anti monitors? Would shadow change his fate to "I want to defeat anti monitors" and give maxwell the dub?
- 10,174
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- Thread starter
- #90
hm that depends how smart shadow is gonna be in that situation
I mean normally he is an idiot but in combat he is a genius
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I think it would be the same case scenario as in SF3's story, where the anti-monitors would only be an obstacle standing in his way of defeating Maxwell. Shadow wanted to destroy the world, and to achieve that he had to kill Descendant first in order to get their Shadow Mind and activate the Accelerator with it, to nuke the planet. They fought, Descendant defeated Shadow and the game instantly snaps to a cutscene where Shadow lays dead on the floor. We can't know exactly what he was thinking the moment he died, but as it stands the world still ended right after his death. Apparently it doesn't seem like his world-ending fate hax was nullified, and that's likely because defeating Descendant was only a sub-goal in order to achieve his main goal (to destroy the world). Maxwell's anti-monitors would be like the Descendant in this case, where defeating them is only a sub-goal needed to achieve his main goal (to defeat Maxwell). And so even if he dies from the anti-monitors while he wanted to defeat them, even after his death his main goal (defeating Maxwell) would still remain and it would still be achieved. I should note that Descendant also dies by Moira's hand (fate hax has been shown before to manipulate how other characters act too, so it made Moira kill Descendant even though she was begging Shadow to not kill Descendant moments before, because Descendant was one of her closest friends) after they defeat Shadow, and following that comes the end of the world. So even his sub-goal to defeat Descendant was granted, followed up by his main goal coming to fruition.
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
I mean yeah true and all but I realized something since the range is 4km wouldn't shadow have to know who is fighting to use his fate hax? What if he comes across a antimonitor and not maxwell?
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He is really just very narrow-minded as a character, which makes him somewhat easy to trick with lies and the likes. In combat his skill alone is the reason why nobody ever was able to defeat him in a direct hand-to-hand fight. He is an adept user of many different weapon categories, his fighting style is stated in SF2 to be unique and nobody else seems to use it. His skill is passed down to his Descendant, who also has many statements regarding them as having incredibly fast learning capabilities when compared to other students of martial arts, and obviously being able to defeat and overcome other skilled warriors too. He's just very good at hand-to-hand combat and it is why everybody in SF3 is scared of facing him head-on. In SF3 he's got some nice intelligence feats as well. He travelled to the distant future to collect scientific knowledge and came back to the present where he build shadow bots which were leagues ahead in technology compared to those of Master Okada, who is a literal genius having boosted his brain with Shadow Energy to unprecedented levels of intelligence, and is the most well-known shadow bot creator in the world. Some fans assume Shadow also got the gist of advanced technologies from all the time he spent in the Shadow World in SF2.
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
Anyways does he need to see the opponent or know them to use fate hax? Can't he mistake anti monitor for his opponent?
I downloaded the game and I was right stoned characters lose their minds and thoughts as well
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Yes, he only has to start wanting to do that. But going by SBA he should know by default who his main target is: Knowledge of the other character/verse: The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch (or equivalent). It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either. Aside from this, the characters have no knowledge of each other.
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That should mean he kills Shadow then, I think.
That's another win con, then.
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
Oh no they don't die you remove the "stone" adjective and they are back alive. I guess it just...stops them from doing anything...transmutation isn't fully death.
Yeah I think happy also makes them stop fighting but not sure...I believe maxwell can also just
Transmutate again! with Magic: Creates a ball of magic that transmutes characters into bunnies and frogs, and objects into bouquets.
Transmutate again! with these Fairy Godmother Wand or the Necronomicon: has an effect which is transmutation.
Powernull with this! Normal: Negates powers and abilities
Sleep manip with this! Sleepy: cause Sleep Manipulation.
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Hmmm how does he see that Shadow has fate hax? I assume through Information Analysis but how could Shadow having fate hax be summed up in just one adjective? Does he have to manually check for Shadow powers or...? And is it even in character for him?
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
"Normal" also yes maxwell can just look at someone and see all of their adjectives and obvioulsy information about them
He doesn't really have a character its player based. But pretty sure maxwell just uses things that end the fight quickly "Gone" "Dead" "Friendly" "Normal" "Stoned" other stuff
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Sooo we are back to square one then. Maxwell has many ways to deal with Shadow's fate hax. He also has some no-no moves that would result in his defeat. The fight outcome is dependant on what adjective Maxwell starts with, which due to him being a player-driven character can be any adjective out there. I have a feeling the good adjectives outnumber the bad adjectives that he can start with though. If we are to say that the victory is determined by one singular fight scenario, this should be an incon as what Maxwell adjective starts with is all up to one's interpretation and we don't know truly what he would start with exactly. If we are to go by say, a best of 10, Maxwell would definitely score more won rounds than Shadow, so Maxwell should be the overall winner.
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
His fate hax will be stopped with the hax. Shadow will stop wanting to defeat maxwell or it will be nulled completely
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This implies that the fate hax isn't passive and hasn't already taken effect by the moment of the battle starting due to SBA
So this becomes an incon at best for maxwell
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
Fate hax isn't a instant win. Sonic who has arguably the best fate hax on wiki lost to Rimuru. If Max uses his hax shadow will lose his fate hax since he will no longer want to win or it will be nulled
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Because Sonic's fate hax is wholly defensive and only stops permanent methods of incap and death, but Shadow's fate hax is different, it is both offensive and defensive and stops the things which would stop his goal of beating/killing maxwell
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
It cannot stop maxwells hax unless he has shown capacity to stop conceptual based hax. Thats NLF
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It doesn't have to stop the hax, it just has to stop maxwell, which is what it will do, it will cause maxwell to suffer PIS or CIS making him not choose the hax that lets him win but instead will make him incon with shadow at best
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Some characters in his verse even traveled back in time hundreds of times and made significant changes in the past which would've stopped Shadow's plans from advancing further, but every time they returned to the present they were hit with the reality that nothing significant changed and that changing things in the past doesn't change the present in any significant way. Fate spans across all of space and time and so it is predetermined to be accomplished once it is put in motion.
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
- 3,671
Maxwell just has to write a word and its not that hard you MAY argue shadows fate hax will make maxwell choose the bad hax but that just makes it a incon at best. Its either incon most of the time or maxwell winning if fate hax doesnt effect the opponents mind. Has it shown to do that?
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Yes it has been shown to affect people's mind
ShionAH
He/Him- 14,714
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How may I ask? Like what did it do to them
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Yeah it has. In the Itu's Plane story arc Shadow wishes to destroy the world. Two characters named Nanami and Kitsune-1 are having an argument at the Accelerator tower about the world being miserable and whether it deserves to die or not. Shadow Mind is the key to the destruction of the world (since it can activate the Accelerator and thus nuke the planet), and is listening closely at the argument these two characters are having. Nanami brings up an argument in favor of the world dying, to which Kitsune-1 cannot come up with any counter-argument that would support the world deserving to live. Shadow Mind is convinced by Nanami's words seeing as she technically won the argument, and immediately agrees with her and decides to destroy the world on the spot, so it activates the Accelerator and nukes the planet. Shadow somewhat survives the destruction of the world since his spirit gets captured and imprisoned somewhere in a different dimension, and he is visited by May and told by her that she doesn't want to see the world getting destroyed just for her to be brought back to life, and that all she wants is for him to not hate his child and wish for the world to keep on living. Shadow does just that, he stops wanting to destroy the world and instead wants it to live. Descendant also somehow survives the destruction of the world and manages to go back in time to when Nanami and Kitsune-1 were having the argument. Because Shadow now wanted the world to live, Kitsune-1 suddenly came up with a counter-argument this time and she won the argument over Nanami, convincing Shadow Mind that the world deserves to live. And so the world ends up not getting destroyed anymore.
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And in the Main Plane (Chapters I - VII) story arc Shadow needed the prototype of the Accelerator in order to be able to build it. This prototype was owned by the Heralds faction, and they knew what he was planning to do with the prototype and so they refused to give it to him. Shadow ended up waging a brutal war and massacring the Heralds to get his hands on the prototype by force. In hopes of stopping the bloodshed, a Herald named Itu personally handed over the prototype to Shadow. Shadow didn't keep his word and still continued his war, and thus killed nearly all the Heralds. Itu regretted that he handed over the prototype for basically nothing, and so he asks Descendant to go back in time and prevent him from handing over the prototype to Shadow, to rid him of his guilt but also for the chance that if he never handed over the prototype, the Heralds would've prevented Shadow from getting to it. Descendant went back in time, stopped Itu, and returned to a present in which Shadow still got the prototype, and finds out that after a stranger (themselves) defeated Itu, another Herald called Kibo snatched the prototype and handed it over to Shadow instead. So Descendant goes back in time again, to defeat Kibo this time. Descendant stops Kibo, and returns to a present in which after Kibo was defeated a different Herald called Iolanda took the prototype and handed it over to Shadow instead. And once again after going back in time to defeat Iolanda, they return to a present in which a different Herald named Bolo handed over the prototype to Shadow instead after snatching it from Iolanda after she was defeated by a stranger (Descendant).
