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Massive MLP AP CRT.

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I think Starswirl being comparableish to Celestia makes sense, and he just gave up a tiny fraction of his power each time. That would make Twilight High 4-C/4-B too, and others, which keeps the scaling relatively consistent.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I mean, there was already relativistic KE findings for the celestial bodies being moved thay resultes in 4-B so I don't see why the god tiers being closer to 4-B sounds unreasonable, anyways.
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Well Starswirl and the Unicorns had to replicate the exact same feat every day, so they should also scale to a fraction of that.

We originally had everyone scaling to the 4-B calcs before they got debunked. The calcs were fine, it's just that moving the Sun was calced at 95.5% light speed and we have a cut-off point at 93% to avoid inflation (even though the difference between 93 and 95.5 are barely a single kilofoe). It's accepted on the OBD because the OBD apparently doesn't have a cut-off point (they didn't limit relativistic energy to 93% light speed like we do when I checked the page).
 
This once again brings up the discussion whether or not all the unicorns used back then were really Tier 4. If Equestria was losing all its magic users, that would either mean that there is a range to what Starswirl used or that all the unicorns back then were Tier 4 great sorcerers.

Fluttershy: Once upon a time, before Celestia, Equestria was suffering terrible hardship. Raising the sun every morning was so hard, it took five great sorcerers plus Star Swirl the Bearded to do it.
Fluttershy: And every day, the unicorns helping Star Swirl would use so much magic, they lost their powers forever. Things looked bleak. Soon, Equestria would lose all its magic users! Then, the land would be covered in darkness for eternity!
Fluttershy: But then, a student named Celestia discovered she had the power to raise the sun herself without draining her magic!
 
Considering helping to raise the sun once made them lose all their powers "forever," they wouldn't be tier 4. More like mid-high tier 5. Or just 6-B because mlp doesn't do powerscaling logic well.
 
GokuSparkle said:
Considering helping to raise the sun once made them lose all their powers "forever," they wouldn't be tier 4. More like mid-high tier 5. Or just 6-B because mlp doesn't do powerscaling logic well.
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Reiterating this here and now: If they were Tier 5 Starswirl would have no use for them. He'd be more than 99% Low 4-C and barely barely on the verge of 4-C. They are Low 4-C or whatever 1/6th rasing the Sun is. Just to a lesser extent than Starswirl. He's unquantifiably superior to them.
 
Perhaps. But I'm just saying they went beyond their limits to exert Low 4-C amounts of power, and they're not tier 4 regularly.
 
GokuSparkle said:
Perhaps. But I'm just saying they went beyond their limits to exert Low 4-C amounts of power, and they're not tier 4 regularly.
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No they didn't. This is their limit. They didn't go beyond their limit. This is just the magic they can dish out at their absolute max. I agree they aren't 22.7 tenatons normally, but they should probably be either baseline tier 4 or the tip top tier of 5 normally. This way we actually have something quantifiable instead of randomly assinging them an unwknown spot in tier 5 or 4.

Besides, under normal circumstances your max power isn't that overwhelmingly different from the standard. I mean, Starswirl is only Low 4-C, yet going beyond his limits and using the totality of his magic didn't let him move the Sun. So we can safely say his absolute max; or even beyond that, isn't multiple times his normal power, and the same logic should absolutely be appliable to the other unicorns.
 
I also disagree with Starswirl sacrificing a small amount of his power each time until he became Low 4-C. Magic is not a limited resource. Magic can be exhausted and recharged. Remember when Twilight exhausted her magic from fighting Starlight and had so little magic she couldn't fend off Timberwolves or activate the cutie map? How about when she fought the Ursa Minor? She was absolutely using a massive amount of her magic, easily a signifigantly large fraction of it, and yet she was still able to cast spells just fine later on. Her magic supply was not affected in a permanent way.

Get what I'm saying? Their magic comes back to them. If they use a large amount of magic they don't permanently lose the amount of magic they used and are stuck with what they have left for life. That's absurd. Think of magic like stamina (it helps that magic actually drains stamina): If you use it then you become exhausted and not as strong. But it you rest and don't use it, it eventually comes back. It's not until you use the entirety of your magic that it can't come back.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
No they didn't. This is their limit. They didn't go beyond their limit. This is just the magic they can dish out at their absolute max. I agree they aren't 22.7 tenatons normally, but they should probably be either baseline tier 4 or the tip top tier of 5 normally. This way we actually have something quantifiable instead of randomly assinging them an unwknown spot in tier 5 or 4.

Besides, under normal circumstances your max power isn't that overwhelmingly different from the standard. I mean, Starswirl is only Low 4-C, yet going beyond his limits and using the totality of his magic didn't let him move the Sun. So we can safely say his absolute max; or even beyond that, isn't multiple times his normal power, and the same logic should absolutely be appliable to the other unicorns.
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That's basically what I meant. I just meant to say their not 1/6th 4-C normally. Baseline tier 4/tippity top tier 5 seems fine.

That does make sense, but when did he ever go to his limits raising the sun?
 
Lightbuster30 said:
I also disagree with Starswirl sacrificing a small amount of his power each time until he became Low 4-C. Magic is not a limited resource. Magic can be exhausted and recharged. Remember when Twilight exhausted her magic from fighting Starlight and had so little magic she couldn't fend off Timberwolves or activate the cutie map? How about when she fought the Ursa Minor? She was absolutely using a massive amount of her magic, easily a signifigantly large fraction of it, and yet she was still able to cast spells just fine later on. Her magic supply was not affected in a permanent way.
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I don't think he sacrificed a small amount of his power each time. I think he maybe just helped the unicorns using only a small amount of his power each time. Maybe he didn't want to just raise the sun himself because after he was gone, there would then be no one to do it, so he guided others, and never really used a lot of his power.
 
If you go by the book, he failed to move the Sun by himself and sacrificed his magic like his Unicorn teams.

Well yeah, but if he were High 4-C, then why would he have to sacrifice all of his energy to do a 4-C feat? If moving the Sun were actually calced at High 4-C then he could scale to High 4-C (or 4-C depending on how far into High 4-C it is) since he'd actually have to be producing that amount of energy to move the Sun (he and his team replicated the Celestia's Sun moving feat every day before the pricnesses came along)
 
More importantly, moving the Sun and Moon everday was described as hard for everyone; Starswirl included. If he were only using a small amount of his magic, then why would it be hard? Sure you could say it was from doing it every day....but I can also say he had half a day to rest and recover from moving the Sun and Moon. If he's only using a small amount of magic, then it shouldn't be that stressful and half a day is plenty of time to recover that small piece of magic..
 
Is there anyreason why we can't simply calc the ap of the sun moving feat as described in the book ? Then wed have an idea of what tier Starswirl is without guessing it's baseline.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
If you go by the book, he failed to move the Sun by himself and sacrificed his magic like his Unicorn teams.

Well yeah, but if he were High 4-C, then why would he have to sacrifice all of his energy to do a 4-C feat? If moving the Sun were actually calced at High 4-C then he could scale to High 4-C (or 4-C depending on how far into High 4-C it is) since he'd actually have to be producing that amount of energy to move the Sun (he and his team replicated the Celestia's Sun moving feat every day before the pricnesses came along)
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I haven't read the book, but as I said earlier, the book isn't the main canon, and that's why I don't think the top tiers should be completely upgraded, just given possibly High 4-C/4-B.

When did he sacrifice all his energy? Actually I'm pretty sure moving the sun at relativistic+ speed is well into 4-B, isn't it?
 
Yes. I understand usually sun moving feats are the same, but didn't they move both the sun and moon simultaneously when doing the feat ? Also because sometimes sun moving feats can definitely be higher than baseline depending on details.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
More importantly, moving the Sun and Moon everday was described as hard for everyone; Starswirl included. If he were only using a small amount of his magic, then why would it be hard? Sure you could say it was from doing it every day....but I can also say he had half a day to rest and recover from moving the Sun and Moon. If he's only using a small amount of magic, then it shouldn't be that stressful and half a day is plenty of time to recover that small piece of magic..
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In Horse Play? If so, I can't really argue against that, except that moving the sun is above 4-C.
 
The entire episode is taken from the book. Only a few things from it weren't mentioned. Hence why I said "If you go by the book".

As for the second point: Refer to my previous sentence.
 
We all agree that Celestia is above baseline 4-C.

What we need to agree on now is how much above 4-C is she.

We can then work on the other scalings from there.
 
Ok @GokuSparkle @The Second Existential Seed Moving the Sun is not automatically above 4-C. That depends entirely on how fast you move it and whether or not it's below FTL. In order to get 4-C from moving the Sun it takes a speed of 756.6032422 km/s. Since raising the Sun happens at ftl speeds, it's only 4-C. I mean, I guess it's technically higher, I mean it obviously takes more energy to move the Sun at FTL speeds than it would at the baseline 4-C of 756.6032422 km/s. But since it's FTL it'd be completely unquantifiable or even infinite, which it'd be a massive outlier.
 
Especially if it was like mentioned at relativistic speeds. We just need to recalc it using the new info that the sun and moon were moved at those speeds of relativistic speeds by Twilight when amped by that locket during that one episode that downgraded her and give the reasons why it should at least be brought back up since the feat was reproduced several times in a very similar manner. Or we recalc the original.

Since it affects the results and tier of the likes of Starswitl and Co I feel we should confront this before concluding the thread .
 
All that said, I have done a calculation that divides the circumference of the Suns orbit around earth (9.4e11 meters) by 86400 seconds (the number of seconds in a full day) to find out how fast it's being moved (10879629.6 m/s) which got 1.18 Foe. This is based on the fact that the Sun is confirmed to travel around the planet and the fact that we actually see the Sun change position as the day goes on, signifiying that it continues to move even after it's been raised. 9.4e11 meters I got from assuming the distance to the Sun was the same as ours and did a formula for circumference (I got the exact same results when I googled it if that helps any)

Of course, it got rejected on the grounds that it contradicts every time we see the Sun getting raised or set. I intend to argue against that in a later thread, but now isn't the right time.
 
The problem is that every instance of raising the Sun and Moon is depicted at FTL speeds. So relativistic energy is not consistient. That's why we rejected all calcs putting them at Solar System level, even ones that were below 0.93 c. Yeah, I know it sucks, but you're gonna be hard pressed to convince the people who argued against it. Really doesn't help that Azathoth; he made the thread talking about it so you'd have to convince him, isn't very active, much less in MLP matters.
 
Actually now is the perfect time. If we get that done it drastically changes the results and theb inplement the calc we did towards the Starswirl feat from the books far more effectively than having to span two CRTs . We can deal with both problems at the same time.
 
The bare minimum speed for the sun feat to be High 4-C is 0.00797509796037c or Massively Hypersonic+.
 
I don't like it either, but I'm not good enough at debating to counter the points made. The only legit point made imao was current calc went above the cut-off point of 0.93 c, and even then the result only changed by 1 Kilofoe using 0.93 c. Honestly relativistic energy needs to have that dumb rule removed. It only gets unreasonably inflationary if you get crazily close to light speed. Like 0.00000001% away from actual light speed. Just ask the Flash and his hundreds of Kilofoe feat.
 
My problem is this:

It doesn't matter the consistency of the sun movement... Which was what Azzy focused on. What he should've focused on was the effort placed everytime she moved the sun.

If a calc shows she has a harder time moving it with one calc than another than that helps his argument a lot. But everytime someone moves the sun it's stupendously casual, so no matter what variation of the calc, the casualness is there . So we have to assume that the others who can move the sun who scale to Celestia can move it with it in a similar way until she shows the effort at moving it with one calc, which wod be her ceiling.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Light
Okay, good. Does anyone object to this?
Click to expand...
Not really. Only problems are convincing Antvasima, Darkanine (He's abandoned his old account for a new fresh one because he forgot the password or something like that), and Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot (Not as active anymore).

With that being said: Should we close this thread and we can make a new one relevant to the new topic? If we're gonna convince anyone we'll probably have better chances with a new thread with a relevant topic. Clean slate I guess.
 
I've already found and linked the new thread for everyone on the revison thread. Oh, and I've asked Ant to close this one.
 
I will close this then.
 
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