Massive MLP AP CRT.

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. Basically for those who are Starswirl Level and above based on the reevaluation of Starswirl being unaffected by doing the feat until doing it himself after the feat alongside the others besides during the last attempt:

Large Star Level / High 4-C : (Shouldn't be any weaker than Starswirl, who survived the initial feat of at least 5 ponies each day for 24 hours for 10,000 Ponies together moving the sun, and only was drained after attempting to move the sun/moon himself , which means he scales comparable to at least 10,000 Low 4-Cs, which results in this level of power.)

Moving the sun isn't really treated as a feat so much as a measuring stick in comparison to Celestia and Luna, and we do have heavy implications throughout it is Twilight's personality , self-doubt that she could never be anywhere near Celestia , that restricts her from being a lot stronger than she already is... And we have evidence that once she takes this off she's able to fight off those such as Sombra and others relatively consistently..

 

[Antvasima]

It is uncertain whether this should count as canon, and I agree with Lightbuster that if it is canon, it would be an outlier.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I am not entirely sure how to feel about this. I have however contacted Antvasima for advice on this, considering he's one of the few staff members knowledgeable on the series and the only one who is active. Besides, nothing is going to happen if we don't get staff approval. These are pretty big revisions. Although now I am not so sure.

 

[Antvasima]

Since we agreed that this would be an outlier, should I close this thread?

 

[Lightbuster30]

I am still interested in what Seed has to say. He did bring up a few points that kinda caught my eyes. I would like a bit more elaboration from him.

 

[Antvasima]

Seed has recurrently drained my time and energy to extremes though, so I am afraid that I am not particularly interested in listening to him anymore.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Excuse me but we both agreed on discussing this well before and it isn't always just me... Because half the time there are a lot of others share my thoughts but I'm the one usually speaking the most.

I don't care of you discard my opinions but at least let me tell ypu it. Is. Not. Always. Just. Me.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Seed has recurrently drained my time and energy to extremes though, so I am afraid that I am not particularly interested in listening to him anymore.

Well I think if he has something interesting or sensible to say he should be heard out.

@Seed The problem with your logic is: What's the point of the Unicorns then? If Starswirl is this far above them then why would he need them to help raising the Sun to begin with? Their contributions would be negligible. If he's in the same ballpark as a High 4-C, then that would make him thousands of times stronger than the Unicorns whom he needs to move the Sun. The Unicorns have to be in same area of power as him otherwise they have no purpose.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I understand your reason for contacting Ant and don't blame you. We do need staff to help with this.

Excellent counterpoint. However, I can argue against it: The point is the Unicorns need someone to show them how to do the feat and they follow. Sort of like a commander and his set of troops. He needs to be able to have enough magic to show the next group how to do it as the others would be drained by the end of the next day. Let's note that while the quote states they were all drained there is nothing hinted Starswitl used all of his power everytime.

This is the bulk of my argument.

 

[Lightbuster30]

He doesn't have to show them how to do it. He absolutely didn't teach Luna or Celestia how to do it. All he did was tell them to just try. There is no special teaching for this sort of thing. He just scouted out Unicorns powerful enough to move the Sun.

Also, are you suggesting that he only gave up a fraction of his magic each time so he wouldn't lose it all at once, and thus was getting weaker as time went on? Because I have something to say about that if you are.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not from the comics.

Right. Brainfart. I meant that it's not from the show, so it's not the main canon.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Hmm... Can you prove this point ? I would like to think there is enough but that'd imply it's near the millions.

Which point? That there are enough ponies for every top tier to be 4-B? Well, it is an assumption, but a fair one. Equestria is a pretty large country, and countries tend to have millions of citizens. I know, ponies and humans are different, but still. Or we could use Twilight's Kingdom. The amount of 6-Bs it would take to make Tirek Tier 4 is far past millions. Sure, it could just be chalked up to the writers not powerscaling, but either way, it's far more likely that a large country like Equestria has millions of citizens than thousands.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

So...is anyone gonna bring up how Twilight neutralized King Sombra's attacks? Or is that an outlier now?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Before I ask my counterpoint I'll ask what do you have in response to the fraction Starswirl bulk of my argument ? I got to see a preview of the book and it seems to point in my direction, but I do believe you have a good counter I need to take into account later on.

 

[BlastX]

It's considered an outlier now

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Before I ask my counterpoint I'll ask what do you have in response to the fraction Starswirl bulk of my argument ? I got to see a preview of the book and it seems to point in my direction, but I do believe you have a good counter I need to take into account later on.

I'm gonna assume you're talking to me, but if you aren't, just ignore this. I think it makes sense that Starswirl could've just been leading the others and could've done it himself. Afterall, I've been saying for a long time that Starswirl and the princesses are comparable. I'm guessing that's the part you mean?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Before I ask my counterpoint I'll ask what do you have in response to the fraction Starswirl bulk of my argument ? I got to see a preview of the book and it seems to point in my direction, but I do believe you have a good counter I need to take into account later on.

Just tell me if you think Starswirl was sacrificing only a tiny amount of magic or not. Yes or no? I don't want to argue against something you might not even be arguing about.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Not a tiny amount, but I'm saying he's not using his full power. At least more than half as he has no time tk recover if as implied there is a 24 hour cycle between raising sun and moon. If he used his full power he would've burned out using magic far quicker. That was what I was saying.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unsubscribe from this thread die to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not sure how it would constitute as an outlier since we really only have 3 levels of feats.

• Normal ponies
• Low 4-C Ponies that need help moving the Sun
• Celestia and Luna who can move the sun casually with a bit of magic

To be frank, we don't have an accurate measurement of the advanced Unicorn Population prior to Celestia and Luna at the time.

What we do know is that Starswirl had Clover the Clever as an apprentice at the time of the 3 Tribes, and the 3 Tribes were united under Alicorns. We also know that Starswirl taught Celestia and Luna. We also don't know how many Unicorns survived by the time Celestia and Luna came around.

Spike: [with a faux British accent] Once upon a time, long before the peaceful rule of Celestia, and before ponies discovered our beautiful land of Equestria, ponies did not know harmony. It was a strange and dark time. A time when ponies were torn apart... by hatred!
Audience: [gasp]
Spike: [normal voice] I know. Can you believe it? [accent] During this frightful age, each of the three tribes ― the Pegasi, the unicorns, and the Earth ponies ― cared not for what befell the other tribes, but only for their own welfare. In those troubled times, as now, the Pegasi were the stewards of the weather. But they demanded something in return. Food that could only be grown by the Earth ponies.
Audience: [whispering]
Spike: The unicorns demanded the same, in return for magically bringing forth day and night. And so, mistrust between the tribes festered, until one fateful day, it came to a boil. And what prompted the ponies to clash? 'Twas a mysterious blizzard that overtook the land, and toppled the tribes' precarious peace.
For a lowball, we'll assume one month passed. For a highball, ten years has passed. Not including Starswirl, 10 Unicorns use up their magic per day.

1 Month = 1x star + 30*10*1/6 star = 51x Star or High 4-C

1 Year = 1x star + 365*10*1/6 star = 609.33x Star or High 4-C

5 Years = 3042.66x Star or High 4-C

10 Years = 6084.33x Star or 4-B

Personally, I'm fine with 1 Month, possibly 1 year High 4-C Celestia, Luna, and other high Tiers.

 

[Firestorm808]

Also, Post-Apploosa and Post-Canterlot Tirek have the same appearance, so that doesn't really affect the Chrysalis and Tirek scaling.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Also, Post-Apploosa and Post-Canterlot Tirek have the same appearance, so that doesn't really affect the Chrysalis and Tirek scaling.

I have many things to say about your paragraph above, however this is a straight up lie. Literally right after the princesses give their magic to Twilight we see Tirek in his second form and transforming into his third form after absorbing most of Canterlot. They are absolutely not the same in appearance and I don't know where you came to that conclusion.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Lightbuster30

I believe you are mistaken.

Also, you can just say that I'm wrong instead of calling me a liar.

Pre-Apploosa


Post-Apploosa, Pre-Canterlot, at an Unknown Town, not Canterlot based on the surrounding structures


Canterlot Exterior and Interior



Post-Canterlot, The next day after Twilight's Magic Transfer

 

[Lightbuster30]

Firstly, it's very very likely Canterlot given the shape of the tower in the background. Secondly, thats not post Appleloosa Tirek. Post Appleloosa Tirek is immediately after he absorbs the magic from Appleoosa yet he doesn't reach his third form until some time after Appleloosa. Thirdly, even if that isn't Canterlot, post Canterlot Tirek is exactly the same in appearance. Considering how much magic it took to go from his first to his second form, then subsequently his second to third form, there's probably not that big of a difference between them in power. Especially seeing as how Tirek has already stolen the magic from that vast majority of each pony race, so it's not as if he could grow signifigantly stronger since the number his absorbing targets were dramatically reduced.

 

[Firestorm808]

I am simply saying that Third form Tirek has a large range of power before reaching his Fourth form. In one day, he drained multiple towns, and he didn't reach Canterlot until the next morning.

It's not clear where Chrysalis + Tirek should be placed in that range.

 

[Lightbuster30]

There's plenty of evidence suggesting he's not that much stronger than before. Tirek when he first reached his third form obviously not the same level he was when he decided to go after princesses, but a calling it a "large range" is a "large" exaggeration. He'd already absorbed the majority of the country, although not quite all of it. Which, again, reduces the amount of magic he can steal and limits his growth.

 

[Firestorm808]

There are over 22 known towns in FiM. Tirek drained at least 4 by the time of the magic transfer. We don't know how many more he drained to the next morning before storming Canterlot.

 

[Lightbuster30]

First off: He explicitly had to absorb a multitude of unicorn ponies before growing strong enough to steal flight magic and then strength magic from earth ponies and then alicorn magic.

We don't know how many towns he went through and he absolutley did many of them off-screen.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Even then, you still can't prove the power gap between Tireks third form at the very start and his third form post Canterlot is literally thousands of times different in power. Because with Chrysalis's power, he;d at most double since they are roughly equals.

 

[Firestorm808]

So we agree on there being an unknown number of towns drained before Canterlot.

I never said that the power range of his third form was in the thousands.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yes.

Thanks to Chrysalis's current power, you indirectly imply the difference would be that great between where he began his third form and when he went for the princesses after taking Canterlot.

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't see how that implies a thousands of times power difference.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Maybe he means since Post-Canterlot Tirek is far into High 4-C and Chrysalis is Low 4-C and she's comparable to his second form, and the two of them combined makes him in his third form.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You know, adding The Pony of Shadows vs Lord Tirek to their profiles made me realize that The PoS doesn't have a key for his weakened state. I know it wasn't really prominent, but he still should probably have that key. And a key for him as just Stygian, considering that is one of his photos.

 

[Firestorm808]

Before we handle Tirek and Chrysali scaling, what's the consensus on Celestia's Tier? Is she being upgraded?

A one month lowball is still High 4-C

1 Month = 1x star + 30*10*1/6 star = 51x Star or High 4-C

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think it should be possibly High 4-C/4-B.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Well, even ignoring Chrysalis and Tirek, me and Ant have agreed that Celestia being thousands of times stronger than Starswirl is a massive outlier because; while indeed portrayed as more powerful, Celestia has never and I mean never been portrayed as that much more powerful than Starswirl or Twilight. Superior yes, but never to such an outrageous degree. The book is the one sole source in the history of G4 MLP that implies it.

See Starswirl is only 22.7 Tenatons, this calc would make Celestia 10000 times stronger than he is when no power difference that absurd is suggested anywhere else in the history of the series.

Now, I think Seed was trying to counterargue that Starswirl was only sacrificing a small amount of his total magic each time he moved the Sun and Moon so that he'd still have some left and keep going for as long as possible and therefore he was actually originally High 4-C while his Unicorn team is only Low 4-C.

Is that what you were trying to say @Seed?

 

[Firestorm808]

I never agreed to the thousands of times power that Seed suggested.

What are your thoughts on the time based method I gave rather than the population method Seed proposed?

51x Star Celestia should be reasonable.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I mean, there was already relativistic KE findings for the celestial bodies being moved thay resultes in 4-B so I don't see why the god tiers being closer to 4-B sounds unreasonable, anyways.

 

[Lightbuster30]

That's still an immensely high power difference. The time based version makes things even more of an outlier. This isn't just something thats been going on for a month or so. This has been going on long since before Celestia and Luna were even born, since before Equestria was founded. The multipler would still be ridiculously high into High 4-C or even 4-B. A month is not a good estimate at all.

Now granted, those Unicorns from back then are long dead so it's not as though Celestia and Luna can give their magic back. However there are easily countless Unicorns who lost their magic and are still alive as the sisters were growing up into young adults (around the time they became princesses).

It was so bad that not just one city, but the entirety of the country had ran out of mages strong enough to perform the spell. I don't think people understand just how many ponies got their magic back.