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Massive Legend of Zelda downgrades

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Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera

Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera

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Why are we scaling cannons in Phantom Hourglass to literally every single time Link has picked up a bomb throughout the LoZ series? There's no indication that the cannon even fires explicitly bombs, and even if there was, there's no indication that they can actually do anything close to that without being fired out of a cannon, and even if there was, the bombs throughout the franchise aren't the exact same type of bombs.

The Wind Fish being 4-A makes no sense. That’s like saying Mismagius is 4-A because Ash, Dawn, and Brock were also once brought into a dream world with stars in the background just like Link was. Not to mention the Wind Fish specified that only the island was part of his dream, it’s even stated in the game and in Hyrule Historia that there’s NOTHING beyond the ocean in the dream world, and someone massively weaker than the Wind Fish was able to keep him completely asleep. Even if you were to just count the island, it would be foolish to say the Wind Fish can create entire star systems by dreaming. Even if you DID say he could do that, you shouldn’t scale him to literally every other deity in the series, since the Ocean King was treated as a much bigger deal than the Wind Fish was, and he was only capable of creating the World of the Ocean King, and he was getting bodied by someone equal to or weaker than Base Ganon.

Calamity Ganon did not cause the Moon to come closer. There are actual existing phenomenons that cause the Moon to appear closer than it really is, for example a Harvest Moon. No indication is given that Ganon literally moves the moon, in fact the very sources used on the profile state the only thing that happens is the sky and the moon are stained red. It would be foolish to believe that Ganon somehow pulled the moon at MHS+ speeds towards Hyrule at the same time to achieve something that’s stated everywhere to only be caused by the moon and sky turning red.

The Twilight Realm DOES contain a sun, but not in the way you think. What ACTUALLY has the title of sun in the Twilight Realm is the Sols. Midna literally refers to this as basically the sun of their world. You might be asking, “If this wasn’t the sun of the Twilight Realm, then what was it?” Well, Zant was simply using his Dimensional Travel via Portal Creation, which is right on his profile. That’s the sun of the actual Hyrule. You can even see that the location of the fight is right outside Castle Town, along with the force field surrounding Hyrule Castle. So no, the Twilight Realm does not contain a sun as in a celestial body.
Furthermore, “Humiliated Midna and Link” isn’t a good intelligence feat for Zant considering he simply injured them both and left.

Why do we assume Majora is capable of destroying all of space and time? I get that they were affected by his corruption and all, but at best that would equate to Time-Space Manipulation or 4D Corruption. Not to mention, time, space, and the heavens being “corrupted” hardly has a bearing on anything at the game at all, so if anything the corruption was pretty minimal. Unless I’m missing something Majora has no reason to be Universe Level+. While I'm at it, nothing states the Triforce is superior to Majora, either.

Why are we using the fact that a Link has Power Gloves to automatically hand them all a Lifting Strength of Class T? The Golden Gauntlets’ feats are MASSIVELY superior to the feats of literally any Gauntlets or Gloves in the Zelda franchise. Heck, scaling them to the Silver Gauntlets would make more sense, considering the biggest thing that even the Titan’s Mitt lifted was a medium sized boulder, and with difficulty at that.


TL;DR, what needs to be changed is:
  • No more scaling to those PH cannons
  • No more 4-A Wind Fish/scaling
  • No more 5-A Calamity Ganon/scaling
  • No more 4-C Zant/scaling
  • No more Tier 2/3 Majora/scaling
  • No more automatic Class T Lifting Strength for any old Gauntlet/Glove
 
We can only have 1 CRT per verse and I called dibs buddy boy, posted mine a minute before you did so tough luck nerd.

On a more serious note I do think this should be put on hold a little bit since there's a lot to go over with Zelda and I think trying to do it all in one thread is a bit much.
 
There's a lot of stuff to discuss here, after the lifting strength thread is concluded, although I think it should be originated a little better.

There are some downgrades that I agree with and were planning on doing myself.

But again, patience is needed.
 
Please remember to open this CRT later then, as it is important.
 
Indeed, let's get this rolling.

I would start typing up my thoughts about this now, but it's 11 pm and I'm tired so I'll do so later.
 
I'd ask @The_real_cal_howard regarding the Phantom Hourglass canons, but I recall they do use bombs based on Bomb Flowers. Which even OoT does have High 7-C calculations that are consistent.

The Wind Fish argument would have been legit had it not been for the remake. In the remake, it has been shown the Dream World does contain a starry sky and it vanishes when Link defeats Nightmare.

Calamity Ganon was actually discussed and it very much very specifically states Ganon's power is what causes the Blood Moon, not the other way around. And he uses it to amp his minions, but his influence does effect the moon in such a way to cause the Blood Moon. So the calc actually is solid.

I actually agree that the Zant's High 4-C feat is far too vague and that it should be removed.

We also had multiple discussions regarding Majora, multiple sources do state Termina is indeed a parallel Universe. And that Majora very much created it. Parallel Universe in general context is typically Low 2-C structured since a multiverse typically refers to two or more timelines rather than a quilted multiverse. But that at least 3-A was kept based on vagueness or possible skepticism. And actually, there are talks about Sacred Realm to back that up. There was a giant process of elimination technique to confirm universal statements.
  1. Parallel Dimension means it's a body of space: whether that means pocket Reality or Universe is up to debate
  2. It's parallel to the Light World containing Hyrule; or some sources even say the world or Hyrule. Can be interpreted as Country or planet level, but dismissed later.
  3. It contains a planet to sun distance; clearly larger than a planet. If Hyrule is located in a Universe, Sacred Realm is a Universe. If it's still only Tier 4, then Hyrule would logically be located in a High 4-C sized pocket reality as well. Being the Lightworld.
  4. Light World contains starry skies, constellations, and even hints being located in the milky way galaxy based on visuals alone. Which would in turn effect Sacred Realm
  5. Saying Hyrule is located in some Tier 4 or galaxy sized pocket reality actually requires more assumptions than assuming it takes place in an Observable Universe
  6. So the conclusion points to it being an Alternate Universe much like Termina.
  7. Brane Cosmologies can be debated for the three timelines, or Termina is outside of any of those individual timelines and its own. But again, too vague
So At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C was genuinely agreed.

Dust Collector may have more to add when he's ready, and I'm not going to be too defensive, but these are some general conclusions.
 
I am going to give my thoughts on everything here:


I don't know anything about Phantom Hourglass, so I will remain neutral on this topic.



I haven't played Link's Awakening or its remake, so I am inclined to remain neutral, but I have a vast distaste for "starry sky background" feats - finding the majority of them to be massively overblown to rate characters higher than they should be when nothing else supports such a notion. I don't really know if the Wind Fish is the same, but those are my thoughts on the topic in the ether. If it was stated in-game that only the island will be erased, then I am inclined to agree.



100% agree that Calamity Ganon affecting the moon is non-sense. I have written about it previously and I will just post that here:

"I was never a big believer in the idea that Ganon is physically moving the moon in the lore since it seems so superfluous and unnecessary - like, why is he doing this, and why would he move it back to its previous position? That makes no sense.

That logic, along with the side material like guides that describe the Night of the Blood Moon, makes me believe it is just game mechanics since there is never any mentioning of Ganon physically moving the moon, only that he revives the dead and that the energy that leaks out of Zelda's seal "stains the sky a deep red", and thus, making the moon look red, he's not affecting the moon, he's only reaching and affecting/tainting the sky, not outer space or celestial objects.

I feel that a likely reason for why the moon moves is that the moon has to be in a specific location for the revival cutscene to trigger as it would be some sort of marker for it, and whatever circumstances in the game's code that causes a specific night to be a blood moon night forcefully moves the moon from its current position to the one for the blood moon so that the cutscene can play."



I agree with the Twilight Realm/Sols topic as well.



I have always been an avid disbeliever on Tier 3/2 Majora. The only thing AFAIK that states that Majora created Termina is the Hyrule Encyclopedia, whose canon is rather dubious at best since, IIRC, they literally write a small note saying to not take their changes to Zelda lore too seriously.

The only other "feats" that put Majora on that level are two statements from a Nintendo Power's strategy guide (which is a weird place to pull lore and feats from, but I digress) on the game that says that he "corrupted" everything and that his "cursed guise" was everywhere, said statements are extremely vague, can be interpreted in numerous other ways, and isn't supported by anything in-game whatsoever. Also, I am not entirely sure if "corrupting" something is = AP, as it is hax.

So yeah, I don't agree with that being on the profiles either.



I don't have much to say on Lifting Feats, and frankly, I don't care. Dust_Collector just finished a thread about this topic, he would be more knowledgeable about it than I.
 
Actually, someone else did some digging and said Hyrule Encyclopedia actually is considered canon and more reliable than Historia. Plus, it also came from the Prima official Strategy guides, which Kep also wrote reasonable complaints to other staff about ignoring those existences. But even if you want to leave out the Universal stuff, Majora still has his High 4-C at bare minimum feat that Azathoth agreed with. I have no strong feelings, but it is constant U-turns that make me sick. I do agree corrupting the Universe is just range and hax, but not AP. But Creating it, stabilizing it via existence, and destroying it upon defeat is AP.

I'd more so say he uses Telekinesis or whatever the Moon typically does in a Blood Moon. And yes, Blood Moons are naturally occurring events, but they don't happen that often. Calamity Ganon causing Blood Moons to happen all the time is literally a primary plot point. It's an important piece of the lore that clearly happens.

We already have too many topics about starry sky stuff, so I'd rather not comment on that.

But I'd rather we wait for Dust Collector to come back.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, someone else did some digging and said Hyrule Encyclopedia actually is considered canon and more reliable than Historia. Plus, it also came from the Prima official Strategy guides, which Kep also wrote reasonable complaints to other staff about ignoring those existences. But even if you want to leave out the Universal stuff, Majora still has his High 4-C at bare minimum feat that Azathoth agreed with. I have no strong feelings, but it is constant U-turns that make me sick. I do agree corrupting the Universe is just range and hax, but not AP. But Creating it, stabilizing it via existence, and destroying it upon defeat is AP.

I'd more so say he uses Telekinesis or whatever the Moon typically does in a Blood Moon. And yes, Blood Moons are naturally occurring events, but they don't happen that often. Calamity Ganon causing Blood Moons to happen all the time is literally a primary plot point. It's an important piece of the lore that clearly happens.

We already have too many topics about starry sky stuff, so I'd rather not comment on that.

But I'd rather we wait for Dust Collector to come back.
Click to expand...
The note from the creators and a lot of the content found within the pages of the Hyrule Encyclopedia makes me think otherwise. Honestly, I feel like guides' credibility, even official ones, are put on too high a pedestal in terms of legitimate credibility. Guides should be supplementary, not a primary reason for a character's tier.

IIRC, the reason they give as to why Termina isn't unmade instantly after Majora's death (like everything else that Majora's magic affected in the game, including the pocket dimension in the moon) is that "Link's heart maintained the dimension until he left Termina". This would be a Low 2-C feat comparable to Majora's, and I don't need to explain why that is complete non-sense.

And I don't see why strategy guides, you know, guides that explain controls and are basically walkthroughs, should be the only source for Majora's current rating - especially when the statements are open to interpretation, implicate hax and not AP, and aren't corroborated by anything from the original source material in the way the profiles interpret their statements.

High 4-C isn't Tier 3/2, and I have no problems with it because I agree with the rating - mainly because it doesn't go against the three things that ended my last sentence. It's something from the source material, that is clearly an AP feat and isn't vague - Majora created the dimension in the moon and Link and him (her? it?) battle it out within it, and it is completely destroyed after Majora is killed by Link.

I agree this back and forth can be headache-inducing (although it's been a while since the last Majora discussion), but that doesn't stop me from stating my honest thoughts on the matter, especially when the topic is brought up.



Did you read what I wrote? No one is denying that Ganon isn't responsible for the Blood Moon, that isn't the argument. The Blood Moon is a thing that is done by Ganon, it is Ganon's energy leaking from the castle and painting the sky red, said energy also resurrects fallen enemies - but that's ALL it is. That's all the blood moon is stated to do in the game AND in the guides. There is NO remark about Ganon physically moving the moon or even being able to reach into space with his magic anywhere in the game or in any guide. There is no "lore" about the feat that we say he performs, that's the problem.

Just because Blood Moons are a thing, doesn't mean Ganon's feat of moving the Blood Moon is a legit feat. It doesn't make any sense for Ganon to do this either.
 
I pretty much summarized how secondary canon sources are treated. I agree the primary canon is the primary canon that should be the most greenlit source, but sometimes, the primary canon literally gives us nothing. Like most NES games literally have 0 lore; in that regard, secondary canon becomes the primary canon. If game says planet while guidebook says universe, it's only planet. But if the opposite is true, it's Universe. But if the primary canon literally is 100% neutral and doesn't give any real specifics, then secondary canon sources are fine. I personally don't mind a downgrade or wouldn't be offended or anything, it's only that if literally every secondary canon source seems to describe Termina as a Universe created by Majora, and the game literally doesn't give us any more detail other than it being an alternate dimension. All I see is secondary canon sources being a more elaborately specific version of the main game statement.

I agree that Low 2-C seems far outlierish for anyone other than Majora or Fierce Diety Link if it's implied to be a feat for base Link. And I didn't say the High 4-C feat had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Only pointing that out, because I heard the OP wants to downgrade everything to Tier 6 or less including the GG by another source. It wasn't really at you.

I have read your comment, I just didn't see how he wasn't effecting the moon in some way or form. Sky doesn't just turn red unless there's other forms of extreme radiation. I agree Calamity Ganon would be doing that. But it's his influence that's causing the Blood Moon to happen every couple of days instead of every couple of centuries. Though, what Tier are you suggesting to replace that for scaling Calamity Ganon and various ToP users? The Endless night feat? I know the High 5-A feat is whack, but I heard Moon level was fine.
 
There is one secondary source that states that Majora created Termina (and even then, IIRC it was more like he rewrote the reality to match the memories of the Skull Kid instead of fully making everything in the universe from scratch). And there are two other statements from a strategy guide that says that Majora corrupted Termina, which isn't the same as creating it.

Definitely not "literally every secondary canon source seems to describe Termina as a Universe created by Majora". Essentially only one, but you can stretch it to two - and there are definitely more than two guides on Majora's Mask.

I definitely don't agree with downgrading the whole verse, especially the Golden Goddesses to Tier 6 at all, that makes no sense. I just don't agree with Majora's current rating.


I don't really have a replacement feat for Calamity Ganon, especially since I don't really know how or where he scales with Ganon regularly. I just had a problem with the Blood Moon feat - I guess Moon level would be fine, but I am not the one to ask about that, my opinion is far more neutral in that area.


Edit: Also, now that I am reading the quote from HE again, I don't even know if it is saying what has been said that it saying.

3000358p1.jpg


"Transforming the world into the land of Termina." could mean a lot of different things, and since the next statements are about culture and races - I am implied to believe that it is referring to Majora making fake people, cities, and civilizations. Not so much that he created or rewrote the entire universe.
 
I got stomach issues ATM, but I'd recommend tagging some others for more input. However, I do see some good points on your end. But remaining neutral till I hear more counter arguments.
 
>Bomb issue: I 100% agree; intended to bring it up.

>Wind Fish rating: I agree with DDM, I guess.

>Calamity Canon: The "Creating a Champion" page used flat out says that he creates the Blood Moon phenomenon, although it precises that it means he puts Malice over the world at this time. I'm neutral on this.

>Twilight Realm: I agree with the OP.

>Majora: 100% disagree. There's enough sources to confirm Majora being the tier he is.

>Gloves issue: Guess I'm fine with it.
 
Okay. Thank you for the input.
 
For the record, I think that Warren seems to make sense, but I am not the best person to ask.
 
I agree on BOTW 5-A stuff.
Supposedly moving the moon is the sole Tier 5 feat in that game, I don't even understand how they got 5-A upgrade.
 
Bombs: Disagree with the OP. We know that Link’s cannon bombs are Bomb Flower based, as him shooting them consumes one of his bombs in Wind Waker, and this is the same Link as that game. Bomb Flowers have canonically always been the basis for bombs in the Zelda universe since the beginning, as they’re the basis in Skyward and it hasn’t changed since. I don’t see how there’s any problem here.
Goddesses: I’m with Warren. Vehemently disagree with the OP there.
Blood Moon: I have no opinion.
Zant: I agree with the OP. It’s vague.
Majora: I ain’t really gonna touch that.
 
I am just gonna give my two cents and say that a lot of what Warren says is fine, sans the Lifting Strength thing, for obvious reasons.

This especially goes for the BOTW Blood Moon thing that keeps getting shut down by DDM. I am 100% agreed with it not being affected by Calamity Ganon, but rather it being an effect of his evil power leaking from Zelda's seal, which causes his evil aura to fall upon the land of Hyrule, which among other things, causes the moon to turn red. It's not unlike common real life pollution, actually, which often tinges the moon a bright orange when peering at it through the smog.
 
If I can say what I think:

> Bombe issue: I agree with the downgrade, we should use instead the High 7-C calc from Ocarina of time, which is consistent.

> Wind Fish rating: I agree with the downgrade, nothing tells us that his creation feat scales to his AP, "Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities".

>Blood Moon: I disagree with the downgrade. I agree about Ganon not doing it intentionally, but that doesn't mean this shouldn't scale. Ganon's leak power is that great that causes the moon to move from his orbit. If Ganon does that without wanting to, just imagine what a Full Power Ganon can do if he tries.

>Zant: I agree with the downgrade, it's too vague.

>Majora's stuff: I don't know. Maybe Full Power Majora can still be considered 3-A, possibly Low 2-C, but I think we should add a key with Skull Kid, because it was confirmed in the game that the Skull Kid suppressed the mask's true power.
 
I don't have much time atm so I'll give some very quick and rushed thoughts. Obviously the Lifting Strength issue has been resolved so not much to say about that. For the bombs we do know for a fact that the cannon explicitly fires bombs, the clip used for the calc even shows this, and unless the series goes out of its way to make certain bombs seem more powerful than normal (Like the super bomb in ALTTP) they just treat all bombs as the same.

Don't have much time to go into the bigger stuff right now so I'll go into my full thoughts later.
 
I feel like people might need a simplification about the Blood Moon.

It's NOT that Ganon isn't responsible for the Blood Moon happening or that he is unintentionally moving the moon.

It's that the idea that Ganon is moving the moon isn't supported by anything both in-game or within any outside sources like guides. The description of the Blood Moon in guides, just state that Ganon's energy leaks out of the castle, stains the sky red to make the moon appear red, and then revive all fallen monsters.

latest


There is no description of Ganon physically moving the moon, only that Ganon "stains the sky a deep red".

Which would imply that Ganon isn't actually doing anything of the sort, and that it is likely just game mechanics. The most logical reason is that the moon needs to be in a certain position to activate the Blood Moon cutscene, and so the moon is dragged into that spot when the variables that make a night a Night of the Blood Moon causes it to be so, and then brought back after the cutscene.

Whatever the case, it is not an actual recurring event in the lore of the game, and thus, can't be used as a viable feat for Calamity Ganon.


That's the argument, or at least, my argument.
 
Lgamer099_99 said:
Wind Fish rating: I agree with the downgrade, nothing tells us that his creation feat scales to his AP, "Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities".
Click to expand...
I mean, didn’t waking up erase the island’s inhabitants from existence?
 
I agree about Zant, it's kind of vague if he just took link to the actual location or warped the arena to look like it
Btw, if we remove 5-A, Ganon becomes 5-B from the wind waker feat
 
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