Marvel Magic limitation

[Muteki616]

From my limited knowledge it seems like the point of this is just to make sure that not every single ******* spell has 1-A conceptual manipulation dura neg shit. I lowkey agree with that.

The OP purpose is to clarify that not every single freaking magic blast, as basic as it can be, doesn't have 1-A Meta Hax tand won't one shot any character that doesn't scale to this level.

Alot of the examples and evidence in OP don't 100% support this, tho..
Strontians being vulnerable to magic means nothing; Thor and the Asgardians are also vulnerable to magic.
Most of the Iron Man arguments are for the intrinsic invasion/deconstruction of the suits or bypassing countermeasures to conventional assaults, and not a debunk for resistance.
You can resist something and not have the proper countermeasures for it.

Tony's armor, enduring the magical flames, makes him resistant.
His cooling systems overheating against Hellfire means he lacks countermeasures.
These two don't have to conflict.
The thing that was said about Hawkeye means nothing, just because he lacks powers doesn't mean he can't resist magic lol.
I also don't remember Luke Cage verbatim saying he lacks a resistance to magic.


The Doom scan is pretty misleading, too.
Doom destroys the Doombots by taking them apart instead of just obliterating them with a magic blast, showcasing that they instead lacked the proper countermeasures against magic.

 

[Ezaru]

To me it just seems like Marvel is inconsistent about Magic bypassing durability

It would have to be like a complex case by case thing imo

But I don't think durability in Marvel giving resistance should mean Magic in Marvel is weak to durability, it could be the durability in Marvel is strong against Magic.

You can argue that it's stated durability doesn't give resistance to magic, but then your own examples show it obviously does, it seems circular/contradictory/inconsistent

 

[Entity]

Honestly, I understand some of the concerns but I do feel like Marvel is being held to a standard that other verses with similar hax aren't being held to despite many of those verses also not showing their hax with each attack or ability.

Not really, it's just that those hax are used differently, the conceptual, info and plot manipulation are used in every spell, yes, but in different ways, even flying requires those 3, it's just that they're not used in the most straightforward way, and it simply must be listed how they're used by the individual character, Thor will shoot lightings from his hands, Strange's cape will fly and Hulk will punch stronger, but none of them will manipulate their enemy conceptually, it must be shown them do that first

 

[GeneralSol16]

Ye

Not really, it's just that those hax are used differently, the conceptual, info and plot manipulation are used in every spell, yes, but in different ways, even flying requires those 3, it's just that they're not used in the most straightforward way, and it simply must be listed how they're used by the individual character, Thor will shoot lightings from his hands, Strange's cape will fly and Hulk will punch stronger, but none of them will manipulate their enemy conceptually, it must be shown them do that first

Yeah, as simple as that
People think that every attack, spell, or whatever magic they throw at someone will deal 1-A Conceptual Hax, which is not what the profile says at all.

Just a quick, short note of
"Unless specified on the spell itself, it shouldn't be expected of a magical attack to have the same properties as the requirements to use Magic." Or something like that

 

[The_Impress]

So great, let's bring the good news MCU is now comics cannon, mangaverse is also scalable, marvel future fight game also cannon, and all the animations made by marvel. For god's sake MCU Scott is probably on the list of magicians. That list is completely bonkers.

Literally this shit has been 1-to-1 pushed for MCU and the only excuse was "we don't have proof what level of cosmology they are"

Pretty much no author makes their universe for power scalers, they give us the information and see how it fits into the standards we made up.

Yeah so why the hell do you want them to write your power pages for you?tfr

about them being power scalers or whatever you are pretending I said, Handbooks are informative, they gather a lot of information and intent that might not have been made clear in the primary material.

Also known as making up shit, yeah. That's primarily why they suck.

The wiki has rules for comics scaling and they require more evidence than other normal verses, Handbooks by themselves count as much as a single issue

On the comic scaling page, we have a rule that states Handbooks can only be used if they don't contradict primary canon. Scans show that here.

which is very little which is why the magic page uses both primary cannon and handbooks has support.

Firstly it's canon, not cannon.

Secondly, still 7 issues. 7 issues isn't better than 1 issue when you're scaling hundreds of pages.

Handbooks usually only show the most important information put together to give the readers the information needed to keep reading without having to read every comics the character shows up, if something appears there is because is important and relevant. The power grid is whatever standards the writers made up, the wiki judges by different standards, it's why being capable of destroying a planet doesn't mean the character will actually be accepted as planet level in this wiki

You literally want them to be considered as relevant canon, when again, they feature the Power Grid, which is by far the worst attempt at a powerscaling system since maybe DBZ's power level.

Either it uniformly sucks or it doesn't, you can't cherrypick from the handbooks lmao.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Calm down with the hostility and the passive-aggressive remarks.

 

[The_Impress]

Eh, sorry if it came off like that.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Literally this shit has been 1-to-1 pushed for MCU and the only excuse was "we don't have proof what level of cosmology they are"

And the wiki doesn't accept it so what's your point?

Yeah so why the hell do you want them to write your power pages for you?

They don't write any pages in this wiki, we read and make it ourselves.

Also known as making up shit, yeah. That's primarily why they suck.

Everything we read on camics is made up.

On the comic scaling page, we have a rule that states Handbooks can only be used if they don't contradict primary canon. Scans show that here.

And other scans show them right, scans that comes from much better sources than an one off issue from an author who doesn't do magic.

Firstly it's canon, not cannon.

Really?? You going with this?

Secondly, still 7 issues. 7 issues isn't better than 1 issue when you're scaling hundreds of pages.

7>1 so yes 7 is better. But it's funny you are focusing on number 7 when you are trying to "debunk" the 400 comics that support magic being that powerful.

You literally want them to be considered as relevant canon, when again, they feature the Power Grid, which is by far the worst attempt at a powerscaling system since maybe DBZ's power level.

And many times in primary canon ridiculous statements and feats on the same level of the power grid were made so do you want to erase the entire verse from this wiki?

Either it uniformly sucks or it doesn't, you can't cherrypick from the handbooks lmao.

That's not how it works, the wiki cherrypicks what do use and what not to use for scaling, we choose to accept that Thor and Daredevil aren't comparable despite having fought. Everything counts unless is deemed not usable in case by case.

 

[Excellence616]

Yeah, as simple as that
People think that every attack, spell, or whatever magic they throw at someone will deal 1-A Conceptual Hax, which is not what the profile says at all.

The Magic itself has the Hax and Hax potency.

 

[Muteki616]

i kinda think
i summed it up semi-perfectly.

the op doesn't provide enough for these (lwky nitpicky) changes.
A lot of the characters in Marvel can resist magic; most of them, however, lack countermeasures to properly defend against it.

 

[OrangeFR]

A lot of the characters in Marvel can resist magic; most of them, however, lack countermeasures to defend against it.

“They can resist magic, but are unable to resist magic” wtf are you saying bro

 

[Muteki616]

“They can resist magic, but are unable to resist magic” wtf are you saying bro

A countermeasure and a resistance aren't the same thing lol.
They aren't even treated the same on this wiki.

Iron Man, enduring the heat of the sun better than most, is a resistance.
Iron Man using coolants to endure the heat of the sun better than most is a countermeasure.

Idk why you and others have this odd consensus that not having a countermeasure means you're not resistant.

 

[Hypertornado099]

My point is that Iron Man doesn't have magic resistance the same way sorcerers do, he withstands spells due to durability rather than mystical protections

 

[Hypertornado099]

This thread isn't saying that magic doesn't have 1-A plot hax btw. I think if a magician used a fireball spell, he would be rewriting the narrative and changing the laws of physics in order to bring a fireball into existence, but the plot/concept hax doesn't make it one shot anyone without resistance to those abilities

 

[Muteki616]

My point is that Iron Man doesn't have magic resistance the same way sorcerers do, he withstands spells due to durability rather than mystical protections

Why does it have to be in the same way sorcerers do?

Galactus has no magic/magical countermeasures, but is granted a magic resistance for simply surviving the attacks. (same with Carol)

Saying they withstand these durability negating hax with durability and denying it being a flat out resistance doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Entity]

Saying they withstand these durability negating hax with durability and denying it being a flat out resistance doesn't make sense to me.

Normal humans survive those attacks, even if they negate durability and attack the spirit directly they do not cause death to those without resistance, it's like the blade used in JJK, it damages the soul but it doesn't mean the attack will be deadly

 

[Muteki616]

Normal humans survive those attacks, even if they negate durability and attack the spirit directly they do not cause death to those without resistance,

Can you prove those humans wouldn't be resistant?
If magic exists in all living things, there's nothing to substantiate these "normal humans" not being resistant to magic.
The soul in Marvel is already 1-A and mystical, so people surviving magical attacks on the soul wouldn't mean anything or support OP.

So like i said, saying these durability negating hax can be negated with durability is oxymoronic, and it is not only easier but also makes more sense for these characters to just be flat out resistant (of varying degrees ofc) to the magic system of their verse.

it's like the blade used in JJK, it damages the soul but it doesn't mean the attack will be deadly

The soul-splitting katana's effects mirror how the damage is supposed to be translated
A cut on the arm isn't gonna one tap you, but getting stabbed through the heart or bisected will kill you.
I don't understand the comparison here?

 

[Entity]

Can you prove those humans wouldn't be resistant?

I cannot even prove magic doesn't exist in real life

If magic exists in all living things, there's nothing to substantiate these "normal humans" not being resistant to magic.

If they were magic users they would probably be resistant, just having it doesn't mean being able to use it

The soul in Marvel is already 1-A and mystical, so people surviving magical attacks on the soul wouldn't mean anything or support OP.

Having a soul doesn't mean being able to resist soul manipulation

A cut on the arm isn't gonna one tap you, but getting stabbed through the heart or bisected will kill you.
I don't understand the comparison here?

That's exactly that, Taskmaster was shoot with a plasma beam imbued with magic, his body was damaged physically and his soul too, but he didn't die, not because he resists soul damage but because that attack was not fatal, damaging the soul doesn't mean istant death

 

[OrangeFR]

A countermeasure and a resistance aren't the same thing lol.
They aren't even treated the same on this wiki.

Iron Man, enduring the heat of the sun better than most, is a resistance.
Iron Man using coolants to endure the heat of the sun better than most is a countermeasure.

Idk why you and others have this odd consensus that not having a countermeasure means you're not resistant.

I’m about 95% sure you edited your message to say “countermeasures” after I responded. I want to point that out because doing that is scummy as hell. I don’t care if you respond to say I’m lying or some shit, you know what you did, and I do too. If you edited your message to clarify that you meant countermeasures the whole time, than my whole rant is moot and your point is fair (your point about countermeasures not being resistances is still fair, even if you edited your message), but I still want to point that out.

 

[Muteki616]

I’m about 95% sure you edited your message to say “countermeasures” after I responded. I want to point that out because doing that is scummy as hell. I don’t care if you respond to say I’m lying or some shit, you know what you did, and I do too. If you edited your message to clarify that you meant countermeasures the whole time, than my whole rant is moot and your point is fair (your point about countermeasures not being resistances is still fair, even if you edited your message), but I still want to point that out.

lower that percentage lol.
You can verbatim see what i edited in the edited post and in what you responded to.

I added the word "properly" as an adjective to countermeasures.

 

[Muteki616]

I cannot even prove magic doesn't exist in real life

Cool.
Doesn't really mean anything for the context of Marvel.

If they were magic users they would probably be resistant, just having it doesn't mean being able to use it

So you're nitpicking what does and does not qualify?
If magic exists in all life, then all life should have a certain amount of magic that could substantiate a resistance to its hax.

Having a soul doesn't mean being able to resist soul manipulation

In the context of astral forms. Taskmaster can resist and survive the 1-A magic hax because Astral forms are not only 1-A in nature but also magical.
So using this as "evidence" or whatever is faulty because the "soul" is verse-specific as well.
Souls can survive the passive magic hax in Marvel.

That's exactly that, Taskmaster was shoot with a plasma beam imbued with magic, his body was damaged physically and his soul too, but he didn't die, not because he resists soul damage but because that attack was not fatal, damaging the soul doesn't mean istant death

"That's exactly that" in the context of JJK
Again, this is Marvel, and both the soul and magic operate differently.
Taskmaster didn't get one tapped by the magic hax because his soul already resists the passives of magic.

Could the AP value of the shot have been lower? sure. But that's not what's being argued here. We're talking about the value of the hax range/potency which most of the OP supporters have yet to prove.


It makes more sense to grant characters who have blatantly endured magic the magic resistance.
not only because it's been done before for characters like Galactus, Silver Surfer, and others.
But there's more evidence to substantiate a resistance vs a "not resistance" for lack of a better word.

 

[OrangeFR]

lower that percentage lol.
You can verbatim see what i edited in the edited post and in what you responded to.

I added the word "properly" as an adjective to countermeasures.

Never mind bro, I'm just tweaking. It was like 1 AM or some shit I wasn't remembering things right.

 

[Entity]

Cool.
Doesn't really mean anything for the context of Marvel

Ýou have to prove they have one

So you're nitpicking what does and does not qualify?
If magic exists in all life, then all life should have a

Just going with what the wiki accepts, you have to be able to use magic, channel it, you have to be a magic user, not just have it

In the context of astral forms.

Astral forms do not have resistance to soul manipulation from what is accepted in the wiki, as I said, if you have a soul doesn't mean you have resistance. So surviving it doesn't equate to being resistant.
Taskmaster didn't get onetapped because not every attack can onetap you just because it has soul manipulation, him immeadiately going down and feeling like dying doesn't really seem a resistance, then it would have to be proven that every attack to the soul is fatal, since it hasn't been proven yet and it is assumed to oneshot

 

[Muteki616]

Ýou have to prove they have one

Them getting hit by it and not suffering the effects is text book resistance.
It's easier to prove resistance than not.

Just going with what the wiki accepts, you have to be able to use magic, channel it, you have to be a magic user, not just have it

That's vastly incorrect lol, especially since entities in Marvel can just be MADE from magic.
There's nothing to suggest a character HAS to meet these requirements in order to be resistant to magic.

Astral forms do not have resistance to soul manipulation

I'm saying it doesn't matter, lol, you're trying to prove a lack of 1-A potency by using a magical energy affecting a 1-A construct.
You need the hax listed in "powers gained" to fully affect an astral form.
Base soul manipulation wouldn't work.

if you have a soul doesn't mean you have resistance. So surviving it doesn't equate to being resistant.

Surviving an attack means you have a resistance to it.
Taskmaster, in this context, is enduring an attack and its varying effects.
textbook definition and applications.

Taskmaster didn't get onetapped because not every attack can onetap

That's a circular argument and isn't supported by anything anymore.
Magic has MORE than soul manipulation.
Using Marvel Souls is redundant again because astral forms have a magic resistance. Using the soul attack on Taskmaster means nothing.

then it would have to be proven that every attack to the soul is fatal

Why? The soul in Marvel/astral forms is magic, and they can resist it.
You're trying to argue Taskmaster surviving a magical blast to the soul as not resistance when it's verbatim attacking his astral self, a 1-A magical extension of his very being.

him immeadiately going down and feeling like dying doesn't really seem a resistance,

Resistance is not an immunity lol, and resistances vary.

Taskmaster resists the effects of magic worse than Captain Marvel.
Captain Marvel to Galactus so on so forth.