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Marvel: Doctor Doom Rewrite / "Upgrade"

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The_Impress

The_Impress

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Doctor Doom Rewrite

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

I mean you may think this looks massively blasphemous or some shit, but we basically already list it

This revision focuses on removing unnecessary keys from Doom's file, substituting them with basic P&A.

Summary of changes:
  • Added up to Low 1-A via Absorption (In light of the EVENT CRUCIAL Secret Wars feat of Doom absorbing Beyonder), Doom had upgraded his suit via Galactus' tech and I don't think any antifeats or claims he substituted them exist.
  • Added limited Power Absorption, since in practice this is what happens whenever Doom absorbs stuff
    • Above two points makes the Original Secret Wars key redundant, hence its removal
  • Cosmic Doom is terribly defined, and his power level shifts rapidly in every appearance, I've decided to just ditch it. Have better defined keys yo.
    • This is also made redundant by the first two points
  • Infamous Iron Man I removed since we don't have its primary scaling file (Model Prime), so it's kinda lacking
That's it tbh
 
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Having discussed this before (a long time ago), I agree. There were too many useless and unnecessary keys.


This in the God Emperor key is a little confusing tho since the ap section has no justification to it. It scales to his base self, right? I guess it would be nice to add a small justification to it
Up to Low 1-A via Absorption
Click to expand...
 
Sorry, but I disagree with that Low 1-A via Absorption.
  • Something that ignores durability doesn't have a tier, it's just its scale/potency to work that high and shouldn't be listed.
  • The Beyonder got retcon'd and so we can't add the feat to Doom, nobody who fights a Doom equally prepared from the retcon onwards is doing so while Doom has Absorption that works on Low 1-A characters, the Absorption of the ability would only be on the level as the retcon'd Beyonder.
  • We're also being kinda vague, someone reading could get the idea that base Doom could do this when he needs prep time to do something equivalent to 1) getting into Galactus' ship, 2) use its tech to amp himself, 3) use his new Reality Warping powers to amp his suit and then be able to have that powerful Absorption. The "Technology and Preparation" part of his profile should say some of this so that it's not seen as misleading.
That said I will point out something unrelated and say that the Ultraguy blogs for DB showed him restraining Galactus with the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, so if anyone can pinpoint that comic then we can see the context and likely add Doom the LS and durability those bands have via that spell.
 
Eficiente said:
Sorry, but I disagree with that Low 1-A via Absorption.
  • Something that ignores durability doesn't have a tier, it's just its scale/potency to work that high and shouldn't be listed.
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Since it works by energy absorption, it's very well listable, hell Absorption tiers should be encouraged if anything.

Also should note that this is contextually replacing his current Low 1-A key, it's Power Absorption afterall, so it'll get listed as it's a version of Statistics Amplification
The Beyonder got retcon'd and so we can't add the feat to Doom, nobody who fights a Doom equally prepared from the retcon onwards is doing so while Doom has Absorption that works on Low 1-A characters, the Absorption of the ability would only be on the level as the retcon'd Beyonder.
Click to expand...
By definitions cemented in the Pre-Retcon Beyonder's mechanics in the event itself, I feel more accurate thing to do would be to list it Low 1-A however.

Characters are fleeting comparitive to mechanics, and mechanically it absorbed a Low 1-A who was defined as such very thoroughly.

Also even by your train of thought he'd be listed "At least Low 1-C, likely Low 1-A via Absorption"

We're also being kinda vague, someone reading could get the idea that base Doom could do this when he needs prep time to do something equivalent to 1) getting into Galactus' ship, 2) use its tech to amp himself, 3) use his new Reality Warping powers to amp his suit and then be able to have that powerful Absorption. The "Technology and Preparation" part of his profile should say some of this so that it's not seen as misleading.
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I mean this isn't prep exact, what this in fact is, is the process through which Doom attained this ability. Nothing suggests he lost it OR he doesn't have it as his default absorption.

We wouldn't list Danny Rand attaining the Iron Fist as "Prep" either, which is what the criteria you give suggests :v
Eficiente said:
That said I will point out something unrelated and say that the Ultraguy blogs for DB showed him restraining Galactus with the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, so if anyone can pinpoint that comic then we can see the context and likely add Doom the LS and durability those bands have via that spell.
Click to expand...
Can you try reverse searching it? That tends to help
 
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I agree with Eficiente about that we cannot scale post-retcon Doom to the pre-retcon Beyonder.
 
Yes, and I strongly disagree. We cannot scale characters between different versions of continuity, period, and the Beyonder has been heavily retconned several times since then to the point that we do not know how powerful that he is currently considered to be.

It should be fine to scale Doom to Galactus instead though.
 
Yes, but we are creating statistics for the current version of Doom, hence what would apply for him is whatever power level that The Beyonder is currently placed at. The Low 1-A statistic only applied between 1984 and 1988 or so.
 
The_Impress said:
Since it works by energy absorption, it's very well listable, hell Absorption tiers should be encouraged if anything.

Also should note that this is contextually replacing his current Low 1-A key, it's Power Absorption afterall, so it'll get listed as it's a version of Statistics Amplification
Click to expand...
Ok then, the feat being tierable I now agree with.
The_Impress said:
By definitions cemented in the Pre-Retcon Beyonder's mechanics in the event itself, I feel more accurate thing to do would be to list it Low 1-A however.

Characters are fleeting comparitive to mechanics, and mechanically it absorbed a Low 1-A who was defined as such very thoroughly.

Also even by your train of thought he'd be listed "At least Low 1-C, likely Low 1-A via Absorption"
Click to expand...
DaReaperMan said:
Doom did it pre-retcon, it's even the god damn profile linked Efi.
Click to expand...
Overlord775 said:
Ant, did you even read Impress's rebuttal to his points ?
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This part is far more objective than how you notice it, the retcon doesn't mean "From this point onward, the character has this lower power" but "The character never had the big power we established him to have". The point in time in which scaling is done doesn't matter, heck we even shouldn't have a profile for a pre-retcon version of him, we just honor the work Marvel did with this character more than they did.

As unimportant as What Ifs are, there's even one were Doom kept the power of the Beyonder, but he just ran out of it eventually and got the even price of the Infinity Gauntlet. Not that this point matters.
The_Impress said:
I mean this isn't prep exact, what this in fact is, is the process through which Doom attained this ability. Nothing suggests he lost it OR he doesn't have it as his default absorption.

We wouldn't list Danny Rand attaining the Iron Fist as "Prep" either, which is what the criteria you give suggests :v
Click to expand...
Yes, he used his Reality Warping to change his armor to a new, more futuristic one he never used later, clearly we cannot say say that his default absorption is as powerful.
 
Eficiente said:
This part is far more objective than how you notice it, the retcon doesn't mean "From this point onward, the character has this lower power" but "The character never had the big power we established him to have". The point in time in which scaling is done doesn't matter, heck we even shouldn't have a profile for a pre-retcon version of him, we just honor the work Marvel did with this character more than they did.
Click to expand...
Fine, I'll concede on the point that the retcon should be reflected on Doom's file, but as my prior point notes:
Also even by your train of thought he'd be listed "At least Low 1-C, likely Low 1-A via Absorption"
Click to expand...
The Pre-Retcon Beyonder iirc overpowers Post-Retcon in both notability AND appearances, so even if we were to composite the files, Beyonder's contextual placement at Low 1-A will STILL take priority over Low 1-C.

I feel like this is a fine compromise between our points.

As unimportant as What Ifs are, there's even one were Doom kept the power of the Beyonder, but he just ran out of it eventually and got the even price of the Infinity Gauntlet. Not that this point matters.
Click to expand...
Yeah, 's a moot point. Shouldn't bring it up to begin with.
Eficiente said:
Yes, he used his Reality Warping to change his armor to a new, more futuristic one he never used later, clearly we cannot say say that his default absorption is as powerful.
Click to expand...
...Efi just so we're on board, what feat are you talking about?
 
Eficiente said:
This part is far more objective than how you notice it, the retcon doesn't mean "From this point onward, the character has this lower power" but "The character never had the big power we established him to have". The point in time in which scaling is done doesn't matter, heck we even shouldn't have a profile for a pre-retcon version of him, we just honor the work Marvel did with this character more than they did.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Full retcons mean that officially the character was never that powerful to start with, ever. It is not just a time travel reset.
 
God, Impress will finish all Marvel profiles by the end of 2021 at this point.

Wouldn't just prep/tech be better listed instead of absorption? It is prep exclusive, as I recall.

For retcon, maybe we can make a note, like we did on MCU Thanos page? Something like...

"We can't use Pre-Retcon Beyonder feat, but if we would, it would be Low 1-A/ We are using feat from Pre-Retcon Beyonder feat, since it doesn't contradict anything"
 
Overlord775 said:
Still ignoring her arguments and just doing a yes man

this doesn't give you a good image you know Ant
Click to expand...
No. I just don't think that she has countered the relevant points, which I fundamentally agree with. We do not scale any other characters to the Pre-Retcon Beyonder, and we shouldn't do so here either. This version of the character is in an existential vacuum/separate continuity of his own as far as Marvel Comics is officially concerned.
 
MrKerf said:
For retcon, maybe we can make a note, like we did on MCU Thanos page? Something like...

"We can't use the Pre-Retcon Beyonder feat, but if we would, it would be Low 1-A"
Click to expand...
Something in this vein seem fine to me.
 
The_Impress said:
The Pre-Retcon Beyonder iirc overpowers Post-Retcon in both notability AND appearances, so even if we were to composite the files, Beyonder's contextual placement at Low 1-A will STILL take priority over Low 1-C.

I feel like this is a fine compromise between our points.
Click to expand...
If I liked to play with somebody else's toy and one day felt like breaking it, I wouldn't feel like using it much after that, that's what Marvel did. The notability and appearances don't matter to a retcon to a character's everything since always.

Btw, Post-Retcon Beyonder should have Illusion Creation as that first feat the character had about destroying a galaxy was just an illusion he subconsciously made to fool others about his power. If you cringed because of that then I apologize in behalf of Marvel.
The_Impress said:
...Efi just so we're on board, what feat are you talking about?
Click to expand...
Phantom_Falcon said:
Yeah iirc Doom just…implanted the absorption weapon into his armor. It’s just naturally a part of it now

edit: I double checked the comic and yeah, he just upgraded his armor to have the absorption now
Click to expand...
The feat you show for his Power Absorption, Impress, where he changes his broken regular armor to a new one with the ability steal the Beyonder's power in it, he now looks like that a human-sized version of that giant Doom we see in his profile's Secret Wars image. Between being a transformation/a change of his armor from his regular armor into something new, and after everything was done Doom going back to his regular armor, it stands to reason that he doesn't have that anymore. And don't we even explicitly know he uses the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness to suck power? That is something else from what he has here, if he had kept Power Absorption at this scale somehow, he wouldn't need the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness.

Really we wouldn't be remotely as bias with any other character; if Iron Man had [X powerful thing] implemented with his armor and thus changed how it looks from appearance A to appearance B, and then died and revived, keeping the same armor in appearance A, then logically he doesn't have [X powerful thing] implemented into it anymore.
 
Yes, I honestly thought that the original version of the Beyonder was a very interesting and different character that Jim Shooter created. A realistic view of how an "omnipotent" transdual entity who is used to completeness and perfection would likely react if forced to deal with the flaws and limitations of modern day humanity, even if people like Chris Claremont and Tom DeFalco evidently hated the character.

It was an extremely disrespectful waste of character and slight towards all that Shooter did for the company to treat the character the way that they did.
 
+this about how Doom didn't keep the Power Absorption.


Btw issue 12 of Secret Wars has 3 images of Doom w/ the Beyonder's power that are better than the one we use, we should put 1 and replace it. Doom was giant for just that one panel.
 
Antvasima said:
I don't mind if we use a new and better image, if you can find one.
Click to expand...
  1. This is the appearance he mostly had but the image isn't full body.
  2. This one is full body but the image is a bit smaller and he has his mask on, which he mostly didn't use.
  3. Here he doesn't have the mask and is full body but he's looking at a side.
I believe any one of them is better than the one we have, if we render the one we're going to use.

Also, this should be added to Doom's armor in his SE:
  • "Unknown booby traps and point-singularity power supply: Even with Doom captured and his armor's power drained, heroes like the Avengers may fear the many booby traps awaiting any who dare attempt to remove the armor from Doom, despite the likes of Thor and She-Hulk being in the team and thus implying reaction at their level of power or some form of [[hax]]. The zone of his ankle also houses a secret button that can restore the power of his armor<ref>Secret Wars vol 1/(1985) issue 9</ref>."
 
Well, maybe this one then, as it shows his full body, but I think that the current image of him in giant form is more iconic and well-drawn.



The other additions seem fine to me.
 
Okay. No problem.

Are the rest of you fine with if we close this thread?
 
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