Marvel cosmic entities revision

[Shivansh_Garg]

Absolutely no problem. Take your time, mate

 

[Antvasima]

The entire point of the Persona series is channeling the power of the collective unconscious and Jungian personas/archetypes. You can easily read this in the Persona wiki or otherwise.

Similarly to Plato's archetypes, we cannot rate any series that mentions them as 1-A without explicit references that they reach this high in-verse. This is our regular approach to this, and we cannot make exceptions.

I am also severely overworked with monitoring all suspicious edits every day and keeping this place organised. It is not part of my regular workload to search for scans to use as evidence. It is part of your tasks as the one who proposes changes to find more explicit clearly understood evidence for the staff to evaluate.

That said, even though the evidence that you have provided of the embodiments of different aspects of space and time below the Tribunal reaching 1-A has been lacking, it is possible that they might scale from him, due to not being overwhelmingly inferior, but rather stated to be part of the components of his make-up.

Anyway, Matthew is busy with studies, Azathoth does not seem to have time available, and DarkLK did not seem interested in partocipating here, so I suppose that it is up to Sera and hopefully Sandman31 to help evaluate this.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Yeah that's much better.

I have shown 1-A realms existing within Multi Eternity. If you don't agree with it feel free to leave the topic to others, I have been saying this constantly now. My evidence is concrete as far as I am concerned, especially since no one has apparently refuted it anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, the collective unconscious is not automatically considered as 1-A due to selectively choosing real world theories.

Being between realities is not automatically 1-A, nor is being separate from time.

All things real or imagined is self-contradictory hyperbole, as the multiverse itself is certainly part of them, as are everything from tier 11-C to 0 for that matter, and it is far too diffuse to be clearly interpreted, as it can basically mean anything.

I am not opposed to an upgrade. I am just saying that it will have to be for different reasons than the ones that you provided, and that you will have to be reasonable and collaborate in this regard if you wish to get anywhere.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

I have already admitted that. Read above

Stop twisting my arguments, void between realities is proof it is inside Multi Eternity, not that it is 1-A

It is beyond all temporal existence or beyond all dimensions of time

Already addressed. Your argument of it being a flowery hyperbole is useless as that can be used to downgrade several other verses, including Masadaverse which I used as analogy

I think this will just be ice on the cake. Whether I get anywhere is upto others to decide,and I am gladly willing to wait for them. You need not bother yourself with it if you don't want to

 

[Antvasima]

1) Okay.

2) That is personal interpretation, and would still not automatically be 1-A if true. The concepts of space and time must both be completely exceeded on a qualitative level.

3) No, the argument that the statement is self-contradictory, diffuse, flowery speech, and can be interpeted any number of ways still stands.

Also, as far as I understand, the Masadaverse 1-A ranking is far more clearly defined, but I am not well-versed regarding the franchise.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

2) This isn't personal interpretation, its a fact. Beyond all temporal existence can't be anything except atemporal. Not to mention my previous point, that beyond the concept of space and time is barely mentioned in any franchise

3) And the fact Masadaverse (including other franchises) can get downgraded also remains. I know the ratings are accurate. Fact is that using your argument, Throne will be considered a hyperbole and flowery language and would get downgraded. So the argument of yours amounts to nothing no matter how many times you repeat it

 

[Antvasima]

2) We need clearly understood irrefutable evidence of exceeding the concepts of space and time. Sorry.

3) The other franchises have far more concrete evidence backing them up than a diffuse self-contradictory statement that can be interpreted any number of ways. Also, watch your tone.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, you need to collaborate and provide better evidence, rather than be unreasonable, argumentative, and disrespectful.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, the the used wording was "apart from temporal existence", not "beyond".

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

2) You haven't proven how its not concrete, so agree to disagree

3) Of course they do. But the single hyperbole argument can be applied to downgrade each of them. Its really easy but completely wrong and non sensical

'Apart' or beyond wouldn't make any difference as it is not bound by temporal existence to begin with

I have already said it before, I am just debating. It is a normal fictional debate and that is how I am treating it to be

 

[Antvasima]

2) Lots of franchises have realms that are outside of conventional universal space-time. That does not mean that they automatically completely qualitatively transcend all versions of it.

We have not rated them as 1-A, and cannot make an exception here.

3) I am just saying that the single phrase that you cite is far too diffuse, contradictory, and open to interpretation to be reliably scaled from. The Masadaverse is irrelevant to that context.

4) This community is not built on being relentlessly unreasonable, argumentative, biased, and disrespectful. It is built on trying to collaborate to find out what makes the best rational sense.

You have to adapt and leave behind your experiences from other communities and your law studies if you are going to fit in here. Otherwise you will amount to little more than being an ongoing headache.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

2) This isn't outside Universal space time. Its outside all temporal existence

3) Its not open to any interpretations (unless you can prove so) and so far your only argument is hyperbole which is wrong because it can be applied to downgrade every franchise

4) Again how am I being disrespectful? I am being argumentative but that's only with you because you haven't given any valid refute to the scans. If that amounts to being disrespectful then you can consider me that. I am going to go with what others have to say anyways

 

[Antvasima]

2) Outside of time does definitely not automatically equate qualitatively completely transcending all degrees and concepts of space and time in their entirety.

3) No, as I have explained earlier, my argument is that it is diffuse, contradictory, and open to multiple interpretations. As a consequence of that it has to be considered as flowery speech to sound cool, not as verifiable and reliable fact.

4) I have given several valid counterpoints based on our standard procedure regarding these types of situations, and you have stubbornly refused to accept it, to want exceptions and special treatment for your favoured franchise, and to relentlessly waste time and energy that I do not have available, while making unreasonable blanket statements that any objections that I have amount to nothing, and using phrases such as "lol" in conjunction.

 

[Antvasima]

That said, we do have a scan with solid proof for the Tribunal, and his component entities may scale from that.

I prefer to wait for Matthew and Sandman31 to get the time to properly evaluate this though.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

2) It is, combined with other descriptions of the place amounts to 1-A. It is definitely outside all temporal dimensions by description alone, you cannot deny that

3) And your overall argument was that it is hyperbole because all things real and imagined would include everything which this place doesn't transcends. Which I refuted with Masadaverse analogy. That franchise has evidence of 1-A places but the Throne is stated to be the source of all concepts, which would mean it is also the source of concepts like omnipotence and fiction itself, which would make it a flowery hyperbole and can be used to downgrade (which wouldn't make sense anyways)

4) And I have refuted them. Now you are just repeating the points I have already addressed. I used 'lol' only once. If you want to stick to it you are free to do so. That wouldn't change anything

 

[Antvasima]

2) We do not consider being outside of time as good evidence for 1-A for anything else, and will not do so here either.

3) The source of all concepts within a certain setting is not the same as lacking any other valid evidence, or comparable to a single claim of transcending all degrees of imagination and reality, despite being defined and confined by both. It is the "omniverse" nonsense all over again.

4) I perceive it as that I have refuted your claims over and over, and that you refuse to be reasonable out of sheer relentlessly argumentative war of attrition, to simply outlast me due to lack of time and energy on my part, without providing anything useful, or accepting that I have far more experience regarding our standards than you have, and you are not the one who evaluates these things, the staff are.

 

[Antvasima]

Do not derail the thread in a possibly trolling direction please.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Okay so I will wait for what others have to say

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I also prefer if other knowledgeable staff members handle this.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for getting worked up. For some reason, being forced to extensively argue in Marvel revision threads, in combination with being severely distracted and overworked, acts as my red blanket. It is likely a combination of how many of them I have had to deal with at this point and my general frustrations regarding the franchise.

I much prefer when other knowledgeable staff members handle them instead, but they usually tend to be busy elsewhere nowadays.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, I'll be able to get things done next month for Marvel and DC.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. Although the DC pages should mostly be rather fine as they are.

Should we close this thread in the meantime until you get things properly sorted out?

 

[Sera_EX]

Statistics-wise, yes they're fine. It's just they are outdated, lack summaries, notable attacks, etc. Which is pretty sad for a popular verse. Also, yes we can close this now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.