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Marvel cosmic entities revision

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">Marvel cosmology has shown to possess places beyond all temporal existence"

You guys do realize that is Overspace they are describing in the "beyond all temporal existence" scan, the place where all Cosmic Entities exist in their truest state ? Also... Just asking, when has LT ever been portrayed at least "infinite^infinitely" above the other Multiversal Cosmics , especially since Multiversal Cosmics such as Inbetweener & Eternity have been stated to be 1/3rd of his power at least twice?
 
I am currently also an adherent to Matthew's line of thought. The Living Tribunal and The Beyonders should probably be 1-A, whereas Multi-Eternity and abstracts below him should likely be High 1-B.
 
Eternity would have been destroyed completely if not for Doomworld remaining.

He was restored due to the efforts of the Molecule Man.

I also see no explicit evidence for Eternity being 1-A in the Guardians of the Galaxy scans.
 
1. When was that stated?

2. He was freed from Doom's influence because of Owen, not restored.

3. A realm that incircles the Multiverse is 1-A, which would fall within Multi Eternity
 
It was stated that the multiverse was destroyed apart from Doomworld, and Eternity was shown with a single planet inside of him, rather than the usual starscape. He was clearly very diminished. In addition, it was stated in various Al Ewing comics that the multiverse had been destroyed several times before and would have been now as well, if it had not been rebuilt.

I still don't know of any explicit solid proof of Multi-Eternity being 1-A, and we cannot upgrade him to such an immense degree based on speculation.

I am very tired and busy, and we are not ever going to accept your suggestion without much better evidence, so I would appreciate if you permanently and immediarely drop the subject.
 
It was stated that the multiverse was destroyed apart from Doomworld,

>Which I am well aware of, so?

and Eternity was shown with a single planet inside of him, rather than the usual starscape.

>Which doesn't proves he would die without the planet

In addition, it was stated in various Al Ewing comics that the multiverse had been destroyed several times before and would have been now as well, if it had not been rebuilt.

>Its not really important because that would simply make cosmic cycle a 1-A event, but I would like to see proof Eternity would die because of it

I still don't know of any explicit solid proof of Multi-Eternity being 1-A, and we cannot upgrade him to such an immense degree based on speculation

>You have to explain how embodying 1-A places like the realm of cosmic entities and collective unconsciousness isn't explicit proof, simply saying so amounts to nothing

I am very tired and busy, and we are not ever going to accept your suggestion without much better evidence, so I would appreciate if you permanently and immediarely drop the subject.

>I am not going to drop it unless it gets explicitly debunked. Though I am gladly willing to wait for Azathoth, Sandman and Matthew to comment again
 
Look, you have provided no solid proof that Eternity embodies 1-A realms and is superior to the other multiverses that existed before him, which were all killed when their space and time collapsed.

We require very good non-diffuse evidence for such massive upgrades and you have not provided it. As such, you can ignore official staff instructions as much as you wish and continue to relentlessly push this issue, but all that you will accomplish is to waste time and energy that I do not have available.
 
The collective unconsciousness and realm of cosmic entities is shown to be inside Multi Eternity, there is nothing outside him except the absolute outside

Not only you haven't shown proof that the previous Multiverses were killed, it would really change nothing even if you did. That would simply mean the death of those Manifestations resulted in the cosmoses getting obliterated, which is obvious

You have to explain how the evidence isn't explicit

I am simply arguing. All you have to do is refute me with proper explanations and arguments and if you cannot then I am willing to wait for Matthew and Sandman and Azathoth as well
 
I'm agreed with At least High 1-B possibly 1-A for the Living Tribunal and the Ivory Kings and maybe Protege
 
You are seemingly being argumentative and insufferable for the sheer sake of being argumentative without any explicit statements or evidence of Eternity completely qualitatively transcending the actual concepts of space and time, which is necessary if you wish me to change my mind.

If you have scans with irrefutable statements, please show them, but I am constantly busy and distracted by dozens of different tasks, so if you continue to waste what little remains of my energy, and ignore explicit instructions, I will have no choice but to consider you as a troll, and start deleting your posts, if you continue to relentlessly harrass me about this.
 
Also, Matthew is sick and tired of Marvel and its more fanatical supporters, Sandman31 also seems mostly uninterested, and Azathoth doesn't have much time for the site in the first place any more, so handling these exasperating threads seems to regrettably be up to me nowadays, and I only like classic, rather than modern, Marvel and am exhausted in general and thoroughly fed up with handling these types of Marvel discussions year in and year out.

Basically, my advice to you would be to cooperate rather than do your best to be a relentless pest. I have already said that I am fine with upgrading the Tribunal, the Protege, the Beyonders, and the Molecule Man when Matthew finds the time, just not the embodiments of space and time.
 
Alright I will do this once more

The collective unconsciousness, which is, yes, from Jungian psychology, is a part of Marvel cosmology, which makes it a part of Multi Eternity


"I pitched a different Magic/Tarot related story idea to Senior VP, David Gabriel," Sexton continued. "He liked the pitch and put me in touch with Editor, Mark Paniccia. Mark had actually learned a little about Tarot from his Uncle who was a Jungian psychologist (Jung advocated the use of Tarot in therapy), so he really responded to some of the ideas."

"The magic has to make sense. Not rational sense, but it should have what Jung referred to as 'Mythopoeic' meaning"

The same collective unconsciousness is 1-A

" It helps move past fears that prevent you from being who you are. When you enter the world of archetypes you leave the outer world of space and time. The archetypal world is not bound by space and time: it's not just about your mother and father but also about archetypes that encompass the world of mothers or fathers. It's an orientation, a destiny"

I just found this scan, and the 1-A realm I showed before is indeed within Multi Eternity due to being described as the void between realities

Now, please address these points with actual arguments as to why these places aren't 1-A, why Multi Eternity isn't supposed to embody them. If you can't then let others take a look at it. You have yourself stated you will go by what they decide. Its a short thread and wouldn't take much time to begin with
 
We do not automatically consider Platonic concepts as 1-A, nor do we automatically translate separate real world theories about the collective unconscious being 1-A, without very clear and explicit explanations within the stories themselves. See here for an example: Conceptual Manipulation

Mentions of being "apart from temporal existence" and "void between realities" is nowhere near enough proof for 1-A/completely qualitatively transcending all concepts of space and time according to our standards.

Sorry, but that is not ever going to be accepted, no matter how much you pester me about it.
 
This isn't Platonism, its Jungian psychology. The comic Sexton's interview about is this Marvel Tarot, which has several references from Carl Jung

It is apart from all temporal existence and apart from all things real and imagined

The void between realities is proof that its inside Multi Eternity

How isn't that 1-A?
 
Look, all that I am saying is that we need explicit statements and explanations of Multi-Eternity completely transcending all concepts of space and time on his own, not just being present in such a realm, not just flowery speech hyperbole to sound cool (it is perfectly possible to imagine realms transcending High 1-B, and the comicbook story itself was certainly imagined).

We need clear non-diffuse evidence that is not dependent on external real world concepts, and that cannot be interpreted otherwise. This is particularly important considering Marvel's sheer enormous inconsistency between the writers, and that it doesn't make any sense for an embodiment of space and time to transcend space and time.

That said, I am far too mentally exhausted and distracted to properly handle this thread, and am completely fed up with all of the Marvel revision threads in the first place. I do not even like Sana Amanat's modern Marvel anymore, even though I love several of the classic runs.

I would much rather see Matthew, Sandman and Azathoth help out with this, but they unfortunately seem uninterested.

In any case, nothing is going to happen until Matthew finds the time to start a revision anyway, so we are both wasting our times.
 
Barely any franchises explicitly state that a character 'transcends the concepts of space and time'

Eternity embodies this place because its a void between realities, the one present in it is earth 691 Eternity, not the true form

Hyperbole? That argument can be applied to downgrade every 1-A franchise in this wiki

Eternity isn't just embodiement of space-time, it is the manifestation of all existence, and 'makes no sense' isn't a valid reason

The writer is basing the whole concept of collective unconsciousness upon Carl Jung's theory, so unless contradicted real world concepts would apply

I am completely fine with waiting for others to comment on this thread, if you're tired you can leave it as it is
 
"Barely any franchises explicitly state that a character 'transcends the concepts of space and time'" This is very, very wrong. Otherwise we'd get 1-A to aru.
 
Okay then show me for other franchises except Masadaverse, and if it is then why isn't it stated on their profiles?

"Otherwise we'd get 1-A to aru"

What does that mean?
 
I'm saying beyond space and time as concepts isn't 1-A

Stellaris has a statement of "beyond the concept of time" for high 2-A beings. They aren't 1-A.
 
I am not trying to prove that anyways. I am going with previous scans of

>Marvel cosmology has shown to possess places beyond all temporal existence

>Beyond all things real and imagined
 
There are several franchises in this wiki with sufficient proof for 1-A, but "all things real or imagined" is clear flowery speech hyperbole, as it would incorporate all of fiction and reality combined.

Multi-Eternity was introduced years afterwards, and being in-between realities is not proof of 1-A.

Multi-Eternity is an embodiment of the Marvel multiverse.

We never apply selectively chosen interpretations of real world concepts without verification from within the story itself. If we made any franchise that mentions the collective unconscious 1-A, that would include ones such as Persona. If not explicitly explained otherwise, we simply interpret the collective unconscious as a realm of thought, such as the astral plane accessible by telepaths.
 
Anyway, it is probably best if you also ask DarkLK and Sera to comment here.

I am far too tired and overworked to spend much more time on this, and nobody else seems sufficiently interested and knowledgeable in combination.

Nothing is going to happen until Matthew decides to revise the Marvel cosmic entities, and as such I will probably close this thread soon, in lack of further knowledgeable staff input.
 
Then show me, lol. You are actually denying the scan by high balling it, which is fallacious. Hyperbole can be applied to every franchise in existence. Its not an argument

Wrong

Yeah which refers to all existence at times

Have those franchises referenced Carl Jung? If yes then show me
 
It is definitely an argument. All things real or imagined taken literally is interpeted that way, unless we consider it as flowery hyperbole.

I do not have the time to find scans for everything. Evaluating content revision threads are not a part of my tasks in this wiki. I am just forced to do so when it comes to Marvel, due to nobody else being willing to handle it.

In any case Persona is entirely built around channelling the power of Jungian concepts and the collective unconscious, and we certainly do not upgrade them to 1-A because of it.
 
Also, the "lol" and being relentlessly argumentative headache who ignores instructions is starting to convince me that you are indeed a troll who is here to make my life more difficult.
 
He is a friend of Lucky Charming Star, who has repeatedly behaved in a disrespectful and relentlessly argumentative and unreasonable manner. I don't have the energy to constantly deal with him anymore.

I am mentally overworked to the point of almost falling over and can't have over 12 hour work days.
 
I will close this thread until Matthew, Sandman, Azathoth, Sera, and DarkLK decide to help out.
 
To be fair, Matt is busy with TES and Saint Seiya. Since I'm going to doing DC revisions anyway in November, I can do Marvel too with help from anyone that is willing.

I do believe the Tribunal is most definitely 1-A since it's pretty much always been a thing that TLT > the Cosmic Compass, which should include Oblivion.

At any rate Marvel is quite the complexity, so I'll be looking over the 1-A information to determine if it's viable enough for our system. Because from what I see, Marvel is a layered multiverse but I want to do a general overlook of the cosmology first to determine what's truly 1-A and what's just metaphysical blah blah.

Just give us some time to look over anything, I'm not discrediting the info you've supplied thus far, I haven't looked at it yet.
 
@Sera

Okay. Thank you for the help. I am way too exhausted to deal with this sort of thing.
 
My apologies if I overreacted earlier. Extreme overwork combined with discussions about Marvel in particular leave me completely mentally strained and exhausted. I hope that other knowledgeable staff members will be able to gradually handle this.
 
No problem Ant. Honestly.... I hate myself far too much for me to judge anyone else based on implied faults . But on a much lighter note.... A few things :

  • Firstly: Thank you Sera and Kep for helping out. I'll do my best to help out as much as possible to ensure success.
Secondly: What should we do about Scrier ? I mean, for all intents and purposes , and IMO he has a blatantly 1-A feat and statement, but the fact it could scale to Well-Fed Galactus is.. somewhat problematic (However... considering Well-Fed Galactus is = Abstract/Celestial Level , it may not be that bad and in-fact helpful to this thread .In-fact, I remember WoG (Jonathan Hickman) compared Well-Fed Galactus (the one that appeared at the end of Hickman's Run to fight alongside Franklin Richards) to that of Lifebringer (saying he's only a tad bit stronger than Well-Fed, but they are comparable) .... So it may not be that awful.
 
@Ant using your logic, Hadou Gods and Throne from Masadaverse being the source of all concepts would be hyperbole because all concepts would also include fiction and hell even omnipotence. Again, please come with a better argument than 'hyperbole'

If debating is considered being a troll and disrespectful then I don't know. In fictional debating you have to provide evidence. Unless you can provide evidence that the verse you are referring to uses references to Jungian psychology, how can you even expect me to back down.

Last but not the least, I have already stated that you can leave this thread. I can gladly wait for others to evaluate this

@Sera thanks. Feel free to check them whenever you get the time. No hurries
 
Thank you! I really appreciate the understanding. I'll be able to do the revisions next month when I finally get some more free time.
 
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