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Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

imZer0Null said:
My understanding of Nousgalia's order is that it creates new gods and order while also maintaining all other order in the world. If he's killed, he would be unable to maintain his order, resulting in all other order in the world being disturbed and destroyed, as well as the world itself also being destroyed.
This also means that if his order is destroyed, all other order in the world would be destroyed. *I can elaborate further on this if needed.
In a way, you could say that all other order in the world is dependant on Nousgalia's order, while Nousgalia's order is independent of all other order in the world.

I'm still unsure if this actually qualifies for concept manip type 2 tho.
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I'm pretty sure is qualifies for it, since the main focus on my post is not just about the gods gave born

And how nousgalia reproduce gods if some gods & order destroyed
 
Read the text above and it does seem like it fit type 2, does Nousgalia also predate all other order in the first layer? If he does than it would be type 2 no doubt, for me at least.
 
Jackpact said:
Read the text above and it does seem like it fit type 2, does Nousgalia also predate all other order in the first layer? If he does than it would be type 2 no doubt, for me at least.
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He is the father

Ofc he is predates every order in the militia world
 
Actually what is one source again, i only skimmed Anos profile and didn't pay too much attention to it.
 
From what i read on anos profile and seen in the anime, source are a person... source and it exist beyond their psyche and even soul, what i find strange is that spirit which are embodiment of legend, rumor and even concept also have a source and destroying this source would kill them despite they being unable to die unless their rumor, legend, concept disappear (or getting hit by some immortality negating attack) which is strange in and of it self, then god also have a source and same thing happen with them.

If Nousgalia also have a source and he is the order instead of embodying it, destroying his source would lead to his destruction which also mean the destructions of a a type 2 concept, wouldn't that make the source a type 2 concept as the same source an ant have also exist in Nousgalia, i know it's a bad comparision but considering how Graham can destroy order with just his scythe and he killed Anos previous father with the same scythe yet the Source still exist and reincarnate itself (might be missing context here) into Anos current father, wouldn't that mean that the source just like Nousgalia order also is not bothered by the destruction of the thing it create unlike one own concept and normal order, is the reason why they and what ever made them like one personal concept even exist in the first place and while it doesn't predate the thing it create, it destruction cause the absolute destruction of what it create throughout all time and history (unless your are Anos which you can destroy source without worrying a thing).

I'm probably taking thing horribly out of context cause if that were the case Maou gakuin would have concept manip type 2 long ago. So feel free to correct me if you want or care. Oh and sorry if reading this make you lose some braincells :p.
 
Considering your reaction i guess Nousgalia got killed by having his source destroyed... It does look like concept type 2 although considering how order destruction is considered more impressive than source destruction i don't think it will work, although it could mean that destroying source doesn't affect the world that much while order does and circle back to my point when i first commented on the thread it doesn't matter if said concept govern the entire cosmology, a small part of it, one tiny aspect or even one person, if it meet the criterias to be concept type 2 than it's concept type 2.
 
Though i'm more likely than not just misinterpreting stuff, so it could be use as food for thought and not be taken seriously i guess.
 
Jackpact said:
Considering your reaction i guess Nousgalia got killed by having his source destroyed... It does look like concept type 2 although considering how order destruction is considered more impressive than source destruction i don't think it will work, although it could mean that destroying source doesn't affect the world that much while order does and circle back to my point when i first commented on the thread it doesn't matter if said concept govern the entire cosmology, a small part of it, one tiny aspect or even one person, if it meet the criterias to be concept type 2 than it's concept type 2.
Click to expand...
Gods can be killed by having their order seized (need nousgalia to bring it back)or can be killed by having their root destroyed (and can regenerate it later)

But take a note that gods, headstate and every special being roots there are diffferent, it's a bit special

Destroying higher order root doesn't mean anything to them , in fact that destroying or Dispatch their order makes them killed and the one who will bring it back is nousgalia

Anyway, how about i make the crt now?

I need member opinions
 
From what I read of the thread that you sent, I think what they meant was that the great spirits in the slime! verse are type 2 because fragments of their being is in each universe and if that fragment is destroyed it will mean nothing to the great spirits themselves and they will just make another fragment to replace it. I think the Orders in Maou Gakuin verse is type 2, if I'm being honest, since the orders are separated in by each layer in silver sea. If Nousgalia is the one who creates the order then yes I believe he should be type 2.

Each order in the Militia World is in each universe there so it would be the same principle as what they were talking about in that thread you sent. However if you destroy an order in a single universe in the Militia World which will also destroy that order in every other universe in the Militia world then it should be type 3 since it's a 'domino effect' but if only that universe's order is affected and the other universes in the Militia World is unaffected then it should be type 2 going off what that slime! thread was talking about.
 
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I'm still unsure if Nousgalia's order is a type 2 concept, but I'll properly explain why I think it possibly qualifies as type 2.
I suggest we first get some knowledgeable members' opinions on this before making a CRT. If no one decides to give their opinion, then making a CRT is probably fine.

imZer0Null said:
Scans
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Order

The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them. - LN Keyword

Gods are the race that controls the world. Each person has some kind of "order" as their authority and is extremely powerful. - LN Keyword

"Guardian Gods are made up of concepts and embody the order and laws of the world." - WN Chapter 29

秩序 - chitsujo :: Translations: order; regularity; system

Order is the laws that define how the world works or the concepts that maintain how these laws function. Each individual of the God race either controls an order or protects it from being disturbed. Completely erasing an order from the world would destroy the world as a by-product. Disturbing an order means that the order has only been removed from the natural cycle of the world, and not completely erased.

"All things without exception must eventually lead to destruction, however, because the Demon King stole the Order the Destruction, the world has been limited. Those that should have died did not die, those that should have brought about ruin did not and thus the natural law was disturbed. Other gods stepped in to compensate for it but the order was not completely restored." -

<Venuzdonoa> is an example of a weapon created by the Order of Destruction. The order was not completely erased, but rather disturbed and turned into a weapon. After removing the order from the natural cycle of the world, the concept of destruction and all laws maintained by it across the entire world was affected.

- Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha: Terminology & Cosmology Blog
Click to expand...

1. True Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.


1. Independent Universal Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely independent from the reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

2. Dependent Universal Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

- Concept Manipulation and Revised definitions
Click to expand...

Order = laws and concepts
Gods only maintain order, thus a God's death =/= destruction of their order, but a God's death = order not being maintained, which would disturb the order (remove the order from the natural cycle of the world).

Completely destroying an order would destroy the world as a by-product.

Normally, disturbing an order would not destroy the world as a by-product. There are two exceptions to this, namely the Lord God's order and the Heavenly Father God's order. The Lord God's order is the basic foundation for the world, and thus disturbing it would cause the world to collapse.

Details about the Heavenly Father God's order, namely the Order of Order:

The Order of Order creates new gods and order while also maintaining all other order in the world.
Merely disturbing the Order of Order indirectly causes the world to collapse, since disturbing the Order of Order would disturb and destroy all other order in the world.
Destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world, since all other order in the world can't be maintained/exist without the Order of Order, thus making all other order in the world dependant on the Order of Order.
The Order of Order would be independent of all other order in the world, since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world.
Since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world, it would naturally exist before and after all other order in the world.

Reasons why I think this possibly qualifies as a type 2 concept:

1. Type 3 concepts (normal order) are dependant on the Order of Order, and would be unable to exist in the reality they govern without the Order of Order.
2. I'm uncertain if altering the Order of Order would change all other order in the world (though it's possible), but I'm certain that destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world (This doesn't happen when destroying any other order in the world).
3. The Order of Order would exist prior to and after the existence of all other order in the world.
 
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Omega613 said:
From what I read of the thread that you sent, I think what they meant was that the great spirits in the slime! verse are type 2 because fragments of their being is in each universe and if that fragment is destroyed it will mean nothing to the great spirits themselves and they will just make another fragment to replace it. I think the Orders in Maou Gakuin verse is type 2, if I'm being honest, since the orders are separated in by each layer in silver sea. If Nousgalia is the one who creates the order then yes I believe he should be type 2.
Click to expand...
Yes, the feats are shown above
imZer0Null said:
I'm still sceptical about Nousgalia's order being a type 2 concept, but I'll properly explain why I think it possibly qualifies as type 2.
I'd suggest we first wait for some knowledgeable members' opinions before making a CRT, but if no one decides to give their opinion, then I guess making a CRT is fine.







Order = laws and concepts
Gods only maintain order, thus a God's death =/= destruction of their order, but a God's death = order not being maintained, which would disturb the order (remove the order from the natural cycle of the world).

Completely destroying an order would destroy the world as a by-product.

Normally, disturbing an order would not destroy the world as a by-product. There are two exceptions to this, namely the Lord God's order and the Heavenly Father God's order. The Lord God's order is the basic foundation for the world, and thus disturbing it would cause the world to collapse.

Details about the Heavenly Father God's order, namely the Order of Order:

The Order of Order creates new gods and order while also maintaining all other order in the world.
Merely disturbing the Order of Order indirectly causes the world to collapse, since disturbing the Order of Order would disturb and destroy all other order in the world.
Destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world, since all other order in the world can't be maintained/exist without the Order of Order, thus making all other order in the world dependant on the Order of Order.
The Order of Order would be independent of all other order in the world, since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world.
Since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world, it would naturally exist before and after all other order in the world.

Reasons why I think this possibly qualifies as a type 2 concept:

1. Type 3 concepts (normal order) are dependant on the Order of Order, and would be unable to exist in the reality they govern without the Order of Order.
2. I'm uncertain if altering the Order of Order would change all other order in the world (though it's certainly possible), but I'm certain that destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world (This doesn't happen when destroying any other order in the world).
3. The Order of Order should exist prior to and after the existence of all other order in the world.
Click to expand...
As my knowledge from CM thing

This is actually one of the most accurate presentation for Cm2 if there's no anti feats there


Although we need oblivion opinions here, can someone call him?

And if it's already ok, then either you or me would make the CRT
 
Reading on the order of order it's pretty clear cut concept type 2, it exist before all other order and creation of it layer, it can't be affected by just affecting the world and would still exist even if everything is destroyed, if something happen to it than all other order are affected too and as such all of the worlds, pretty clear type 2. Now the real question is, what would the thing that rule over the order be, the order of order of order (considering the bunch of stupid line that the author made i'm pretty sure that's possible).
 
RamadhanDayYet said:
And if it's already ok, then either you or me would make the CRT
Click to expand...

imZer0Null said:
I suggest we first get some knowledgeable members' opinions on this before making a CRT. If no one decides to give their opinion, then making a CRT is probably fine.
Click to expand...
Maybe try and ask some people who you think are knowledgeable on concept stuff what they think about this..?
 
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Could work as CM2 yeah. Although as Ramadhan explained, I think it's best to wait for the CM page revision to be applied (it's accepted but can't be done till corruption type 1 removal ends and till profiles get changed accordingly); since its type will have to change either way.
 
Nice,with CM type 2 Anos can have a spot in tier 2-B in top strongest characters for every tier
 
QuasiYuri said:
Could work as CM2 yeah. Although as Ramadhan explained, I think it's best to wait for the CM page revision to be applied (it's accepted but can't be done till corruption type 1 removal ends and till profiles get changed accordingly); since its type will have to change either way.
Click to expand...
I have a question... Currently without counting the CM revisions, Anos is CM3 and because of the CM revisions Anos CM will become CM 2, but currently wouldn't Anos CM count as Type 1 instead of Type 2?
 
Because as I understand it, Type 4 will become Type 3, Type 3 will become Type 2 and Type 2 will become Type 1.
 
Dereck03 said:
I have a question... Currently without counting the CM revisions, Anos is CM3 and because of the CM revisions Anos CM will become CM 2, but currently wouldn't Anos CM count as Type 1 instead of Type 2?
Click to expand...
Type 1 under the new CM, since type 2 will be type 1, as you said.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Type 1 under the new CM, since type 2 will be type 1, as you said.
Click to expand...
Exactly... Currently Anos is Type 3, after the revision it will be Type 2, and then the CRT will be made to upgrade the Type 2 to Type 1.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Could work as CM2 yeah
Click to expand...
I have a question,why a concept that can give birth another concept is type 2 concept?I don't understand the main reason behind it,type 2 concept exists independently from the reality and concept that can create another concept is not unbound by reality at all
 
Delta333 said:
I have a question,why a concept that can give birth another concept is type 2 concept?I don't understand the main reason behind it,type 2 concept exists independently from the reality and concept that can create another concept is not unbound by reality at all
Click to expand...
I don't think it should be a criteria for type 2 either. Just creating a type 3 concept without more would be type 3.
 
QuasiYuri said:
I just checked a bit, but isn't the Order of Order independent from the world?
Click to expand...
I mean the entire point of Ramad here is"order can create order"so it's type 2 concept,he doesn't mention to anything like existing independently from reality if I don't miss something
 
Delta333 said:

I have a question,why a concept that can give birth another concept is type 2 concept?I don't understand the main reason behind it,type 2 concept exists independently from the reality and concept that can create another concept is not unbound by reality at all
Click to expand...
The order of order created the order that created reality and also predate it so no it isn't bound by it
 
Everything can be destroyed and it would just chug out new order to create reality again.
 
Delta333 said:
I mean the entire point of Ramad here is"order can create order"so it's type 2 concept,he doesn't mention to anything like existing independently from reality if I don't miss something
Click to expand...
I did mention it's independent right after the following post
 
"The Order of Order creates new gods and order while also maintaining all other order in the world.
Merely disturbing the Order of Order indirectly causes the world to collapse, since disturbing the Order of Order would disturb and destroy all other order in the world.
Destroying the Order of Order would destroy all other order in the world, since all other order in the world can't be maintained/exist without the Order of Order, thus making all other order in the world dependant on the Order of Order.
The Order of Order would be independent of all other order in the world, since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world.
Since it both creates and maintains all other order in the world, it would naturally exist before and after all other order in the world."

Do you guys mean this?
 
I'm wondering if the new CM 2 would be able to interact with Acausality Type 5
 
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