Making Ganondorfs profile readable

[Dust_Collector]

Ganondorfs P&A section is currently well sourced, having links and scans to justify everything along with references, but it is also a nightmare to read. Yeah not anything major I just went and made it so his massive wall of text isn't just pure blue, here's how I wanna change it and here's the current profile so you can compare, added stuff like bolding the actual abilities to make it easier to find but if nobody likes them being bold it's not hard for me to just revert it back to normal. Wasn't sure if I needed a CRT just for visibility but I also made some little changes and additions to his abilities that I had to bring up first instead of just sneaking 'em in and hoping nobody notices.

Main Changes and Additions​

Changed his base forms reality warping to minor and removed the feat of him warping his room in Ocarina of Time since he didn't warp it his organ just kinda vanished into thin air and that was it really. Also added acrobatics since he can do flips in his Wind Waker and Twilight Princess fights, and also changed his type 2 immortality to type 7 since I'm pretty sure that's how we treat people who can survive as a soul. For his Triforce of Power I just made it more in line with how it is on the actual Triforce page, plus the unholy stuff he gets. Also added the Zant feat back into his corruption since Midna says that him turning the twili into demons made it clear he was using power different from the twili (Which is Ganon) and of course the historia lists the twilight realm being covered in darkness and the twili being transformed as a joint effort between him and Zant. Sealing war is the same deal as his TOP key, just making it match with the actual Triforce page, although for both his TOP and Sealing War tabbers I'd also be fine with just linking to the actual Triforce page instead of having the abilities copy pasted on his page as well (Except for the unholy and corruption stuff which would still need to be listed on his profile). Added fire manipulation to incomplete Calamity Ganon because of course, and gave his Astor absorbed form limited gravity manipulation because his malice can drag people in, and also added forcefield creation since I initially mistook him resisting Link and Zelda as just him being super jacked up but no his pretty clearly makes a malice barrier around himself when he roars. Also added little arrows on the tabs since I saw a few other profiles do it and I think it looks nice

Potential Additions​

There's also the matter of some other abilities that could potentially be added that I'm not entirely sure on. As you can see at the bottom of the sandbox I have other abilities he can have added, but unlike his other abilities these don't come from the games or manuals or guidebooks that explain the lore, they come from strategy guides. Officially licensed with approval from Nintendo, but not entirely made by them. I know we already use stuff like the Nintendo Power players guides for stuff like the Class T rating for OOT Link with the Golden Gauntlets and for Majora's Corruption but I'm still not entirely sure how acceptable giving Ganondorf something like Non-Physical Interaction because a prima guide said the sages aren't physical beings. To give an overview of what he could get if people are fine with using these strategy guides:

Base Ganondorf would gain: Necromancy (The Fire Bubbles found within the Fire Temple are skulls reanimated by Ganondorf (Page 76 of the Ocarina of Time official players guide), Water Manipulation (Drained Lake Hylia (Page 80 of the same guide) (Contradicted by the actual game) Vehicular Mastery (Is a skilled horse rider as shown in the final boss fight of Twilight Princess), and Disease Manipulation (His power emanated from Death Mountain (Page 168 of the prima guide for A Link to the Past), which caused a child to become sick (From the game itself). There's also actual confirmation (Page 166 of primas link to the past guide) that it is indeed Ganon's spirit that rises from Agahnim's body and not him simply being intangible or whatever when he regenerates in A Link to the Past, and further confirmation (Page 77 of the bradygames wind waker guide) that he cast a spell to keep the sea in an eternal night (Just to hammer in it was a spell he used to create the endless night and not via other means).

And Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power would get another justification for his Immortality (Type 4 - His defeat at the hands of Link (From Ocarina of Time) resulted in his death (Page 109 of the official nintendo players guide), yet the Triforce of Power brought him back to life to fight Link again not long after (From the game itself), Accelerated Development (His power was constantly growing during his reign over Hyrule (Page 84 of the same guide), Non-Physical Interaction (When the Triforce of Power activated Ganondorf was able to grab and destroy the Sage of Water (Twilight Pirncress), who lacks a physical body (Page 306 of the prima guide for Twilight Princess). He'd also gain the following weakness, If the Triforce of Power forces him into his beast form he'll enter a frenzied state (Page 110 of the official players guide), causing him to attack wildly and without much thought (From the game itself). Was considering adding this weakness even without the guide but it's just that extra bit of confirmation, should also grant him Berserk Mode

 

[Dust_Collector]

bump

 

[Confluctor]

Sure. I like the new format too. Tho I would recommend waiting for a bit to see if bolded P&A can get officially accepted

 

[Chariot190]

Also added acrobatics since he can do flips

Very epic and cool, you have my upvote

 

[Chariot190]

Anyway yeah, aight, agreed.

Well for starters, how "canon" do we treat these guides? Do they have input from the devs and those who worked directly on the game, or is it just a in house guide?
For example, the Prima MGS guides are licensced but not inherently canon. While the piggy-back guides ARE indeed canon, work directly with the devs and Kojima, and even have interviews and exclusive info on things not said anywhere else that was obtained directly from Kojidevs.

We gotta figure that out first, if the answer ends up being yes on any of them, I'd say yeah 100% canon and good to go.

But if not, I'd be extremely cautious unless the statement in question is already inherently obviously.

Base Ganondorf would gain: Necromancy (The Fire Bubbles found within the Fire Temple are skulls reanimated by Ganondorf (Page 76 of the Ocarina of Time official players guide),

Would agree if it checks out. Though iirc he should already have that due to Redeads should he not? (At least, depending on which route you wanna go with redeads, them being reanimated, clay, etc)

Water Manipulation (Drained Lake Hylia (Page 80 of the same guide),

Wasn't it stated that Morpha did that, not Ganon? I'll check, but if it did say Morpha I'll have to disagree on that one.

and Disease Manipulation (His power emanated from Death Mountain (Page 168 of the prima guide for A Link to the Past), which caused a child to become sick (From the game itself).

Neutral but leaning toward agree, especially as it's corroborated by in game info.

There's also actual confirmation (Page 166 of primas link to the past guide) that it is indeed Ganon's spirit that rises from Agahnim's body and not him simply being intangible or whatever when he regenerates in A Link to the Past, and further confirmation (Page 77 of the bradygames wind waker guide) that he cast a spell to keep the sea in an eternal night (Just to hammer in it was a spell he used to create the endless night and not via other means).

Agreed, but mostly because that's just reconfirmation to things already made obvious and directly said in other canon places.

And Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power would get another justification for his Immortality (Type 4 - His defeat at the hands of Link (From Ocarina of Time) resulted in his death (Page 109 of the official nintendo players guide), yet the Triforce of Power brought him back to life to fight Link again not long after (From the game itself),

Agreed.

Accelerated Development (His power was constantly growing during his reign over Hyrule (Page 84 of the same guide),

Neutral, unsure on guide's canonicity. Think there's a similar statement in game tho so it might not matter.

Non-Physical Interaction (When the Triforce of Power activated Ganondorf was able to grab and destroy the Sage of Water (Twilight Pirncress), who lacks a physical body (Page 306 of the prima guide for Twilight Princess).

I agree, but not really because of the guide, it's pretty obvious they're noncorporal and iirc they're even called spirits, which checks out given the ghostly visage.

He'd also gain the following weakness, If the Triforce of Power forces him into his beast form he'll enter a frenzied state (Page 110 of the official players guide), causing him to attack wildly and without much thought (From the game itself). Was considering adding this weakness even without the guide but it's just that extra bit of confirmation.

Sure.

Everything else mentioned is good imo.

 

[Chariot190]

Ok so just going through the text dump and going Ctrl+F.

The lake being drained seems to be tied to the fact that all water comes from Zora Domain's, flowing from there to the lake. When the domain was frozen over by what is implied to be Morpha, Zora's domain stopped the flow of water and over time, the lake has had a water shortage and has begin dwindling.

It also explicitly says that Morpha has complete control of all water in another section and says that upon his defeat, as the evil vanishes, so does the water return (Directly implicating Morpha is connected to the water being gone as only upon its death, does it return due to said very death).
"As the water rises, the evil is vanishing from the lake... Link, you did it!
"Look at that, Link... Together, you and Princess Ruto destroyed the evil monster! Once again, the lake is filled with pure water. All is as it was here."

Ruto also directly implies that the freezing is tied to Morpha, and thus, in order to undo the freezing they must kill Morpha.
"You're a terrible man to have kept me waiting for these seven long years...
But now is not the time to talk about love...
I'm sure you've already seen it! Zora's Domain--totally frozen!
A young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice... But my father and the other Zoras have not ...yet...

I want to save them all! I want to save Zora's Domain! You! You have to help me! This is a request from me, the woman who is going to be your wife!
Link, you have to help me destroy the evil monster in the Temple, OK?!"

Upon Morpha's defeat
"Link... I would have expected no less from the man I chose to be my husband.
Zora's Domain and its people will eventually return to their original state."

Everything points toward Morpha being the cause and is shown as such as only upon its death does things return to normal. If Ganon was the cause, all this Morpha shit wouldn't make sense, unless it's saying "Ganon caused the water to vanish (Because he sent Morpha)", aka consequences of his decisions but not him exactly.

So yeah idk lad.

Edit: "It's the Boss of the Fire Temple, revived by the Evil King. I don't know its weak point..."/"All of them will be eaten by Volvagia!
Dad said that Ganondorf has revived Volvagia... As a warning to those who might oppose him, Ganondorf is going to feed them all to Volvagia!"/"I want to have a man-to-man talk with you, but now's not the time. Ganondorf is causing trouble on Death Mountain again! He has revived the evil, ancient dragon Volvagia!"
Necromancy for Ganon regardless of guide, revived Volvagia.
"Already he has descended and been reborn in this world... As long as my master, Ganon, survives, he will resurrect me without cease!" (Zant)

 

[Armorchompy]

Wouldn't the weakness stuff also be Berserk Mode? Pretty minor but still

 

[Chariot190]

Ganon needs vehicular mastery (horse go brrrr).
The evil power from the temples blocked out the (telepathic?) message sent from the sacred realm to the sages, thus they never got the message to awaken, forcing Link to go do it manually. I'm not sure what this is, minor power null? But it's a huge point of the game and caused By Ganon's/Temple Bosses evil aura.

That's all off the top of my head.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ok so just going through the text dump and going Ctrl+F.

The lake being drained seems to be tied to the fact that all water comes from Zora Domain's, flowing from there to the lake. When the domain was frozen over by what is implied to be Morpha, Zora's domain stopped the flow of water and over time, the lake has had a water shortage and has begin dwindling.

It also explicitly says that Morpha has complete control of all water in another section and says that upon his defeat, as the evil vanishes, so does the water return (Directly implicating Morpha is connected to the water being gone as only upon its death, does it return due to said very death).
"As the water rises, the evil is vanishing from the lake... Link, you did it!
"Look at that, Link... Together, you and Princess Ruto destroyed the evil monster! Once again, the lake is filled with pure water. All is as it was here."

Ruto also directly implies that the freezing is tied to Morpha, and thus, in order to undo the freezing they must kill Morpha.
"You're a terrible man to have kept me waiting for these seven long years...
But now is not the time to talk about love...
I'm sure you've already seen it! Zora's Domain--totally frozen!
A young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice... But my father and the other Zoras have not ...yet...

I want to save them all! I want to save Zora's Domain! You! You have to help me! This is a request from me, the woman who is going to be your wife!
Link, you have to help me destroy the evil monster in the Temple, OK?!"

Upon Morpha's defeat
"Link... I would have expected no less from the man I chose to be my husband.
Zora's Domain and its people will eventually return to their original state."

Everything points toward Morpha being the cause and is shown as such as only upon its death does things return to normal. If Ganon was the cause, all this Morpha shit wouldn't make sense, unless it's saying "Ganon caused the water to vanish (Because he sent Morpha)", aka consequences of his decisions but not him exactly.

So yeah idk lad.

Edit: "It's the Boss of the Fire Temple, revived by the Evil King. I don't know its weak point..."/"All of them will be eaten by Volvagia!
Dad said that Ganondorf has revived Volvagia... As a warning to those who might oppose him, Ganondorf is going to feed them all to Volvagia!"/"I want to have a man-to-man talk with you, but now's not the time. Ganondorf is causing trouble on Death Mountain again! He has revived the evil, ancient dragon Volvagia!"
Necromancy for Ganon regardless of guide, revived Volvagia.
"Already he has descended and been reborn in this world... As long as my master, Ganon, survives, he will resurrect me without cease!" (Zant)

Ah ok then water manipulation can get yeeted then.

Although pretty sure the Volvagia and Zant stuff is just plain old resurrection since he's not reanimating them as an undead he's just reviving them completely.

Wouldn't the weakness stuff also be Berserk Mode? Pretty minor but still

Keep forgetting we have Berserk Mode as a power, yeah it should also be that.

Ganon needs vehicular mastery (horse go brrrr).
The evil power from the temples blocked out the (telepathic?) message sent from the sacred realm to the sages, thus they never got the message to awaken, forcing Link to go do it manually. I'm not sure what this is, minor power null? But it's a huge point of the game and caused By Ganon's/Temple Bosses evil aura.

That's all off the top of my head.

Do we give vehicular mastery for riding horses, throught it was for stuff like cars or bikes or whatever but if horse riding counts then yeah guess he needs it.

Guess blocking telepathic messages could be a mix of regular telepahy and some kinda power null.

 

[Chariot190]

Do we give vehicular mastery for riding horses, throught it was for stuff like cars or bikes or whatever but if horse riding counts then yeah guess he needs it.

Guess blocking telepathic messages could be a mix of regular telepahy and some kinda power null.

You'd think but yeah, I've been told horses count, as wacky as that might be.

"Manipulation of Souls: A form that targets the soul rather than the body, it allows the Necromancer to summon, control, and instill the souls of the dead in various objects and living beings. In the most advanced cases, the necromancer can manipulate not only the souls of the dead, but still living beings, bringing them under their thrall or killing them by tearing out their soul entirely.
Control over Life and Death: A subset that combines elements of the aforementioned variations, allowing the Necromancer to freely transform the living into the undead or resurrect the dead as they please."

From the necromancy profile, sounds like what Ganon does tbh. But if other powers cover it better, then oh well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Due to the length, would it be better to bullet proof his powers so they're read as separate lines rather than a wall of text? It may also help with readability.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Due to the length, would it be better to bullet proof his powers so they're read as separate lines rather than a wall of text? It may also help with readability.

But bullet points are UUUUGGGGGLLLLYYYYY

I wouldn't be completely opposed if it's also put into bullet points if everyone thinks it'd be easier to read. Personally tho I much prefer the normal format to bullet points.

 

[Armorchompy]

I prefer normal personally.

 

[Chariot190]

As a bullet point advocator, atm it looks fine imo.
I have slight issues but they're just personal preference, the ordering of the abilities (Personally, I order abilities starting from basic ones like superhuman stuff (physicals, afterimage creation, acrobatics, and immortality, regen, etc etc), followed things like weapon and vehicular mastery and martial arts, then from the main abilities in order of notability and importance in sections of what "category" they fall in (So for example Magic>Elemental manips>necromancy, etc).
But that's just me being overtly anal and personal preference.

I'd also tweak the pictures slightly by a few percent so they're more in scale with the OOT Ganon picture, but again just me being anal.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Sure. I like the new format too. Tho I would recommend waiting for a bit to see if bolded P&A can get officially accepted

Ayyy bolded P&A is officially accepted now.

Anyone got any further thoughts on this?

 

[SamanPatou]

We still have to scrutinize the guides, iirc the Prima guides have never been used because they have no actual connection to the producers, and are US-made for japanese games.
Nintendo Power was also scrapped for the same reasons, I remember pages and pages of Mario and other Nintendo-related threads that concluded with Nintendo Power not being usable.

Acrobatics works of course, so do Fire and other abilities in the first section on this thread.
However, I'll still keep him erasing the piano, it might be minor, but it's still an ability.

And the new format's better, of course.

 

[Dust_Collector]

We still have to scrutinize the guides, iirc the Prima guides have never been used because they have no actual connection to the producers, and are US-made for japanese games.

Yee that's why I wasn't so sure about them, thought it was worth bringing them up since I saw a few other verses (Not gonna go into detail since nobody's a fan of the "But what about this verse?" argument that gets flung around a lot) using stuff like BradyGames so long as it didn't conflict with the actual games.

Nintendo Power was also scrapped for the same reasons, I remember pages and pages of Mario and other Nintendo-related threads that concluded with Nintendo Power not being usable.

I know we stopped using Nintendo Power being scrapped for certain things in Mario but if there were other Nintendo-related threads that all came to the conclusion it's just not usable at all then fair enough. Although I think if it's not usable then the Class T ratings for OOT Link with the Golden Gauntlets and Ganondorfs low end lifting strength need to go since the calc for that is based on a statement from Nintendo Power.

 

[Chariot190]

Yee that's why I wasn't so sure about them, thought it was worth bringing them up since I saw a few other verses (Not gonna go into detail since nobody's a fan of the "But what about this verse?" argument that gets flung around a lot) using stuff like BradyGames so long as it didn't conflict with the actual games.


I know we stopped using Nintendo Power being scrapped for certain things in Mario but if there were other Nintendo-related threads that all came to the conclusion it's just not usable at all then fair enough. Although I think if it's not usable then the Class T ratings for OOT Link with the Golden Gauntlets and Ganondorfs low end lifting strength need to go since the calc for that is based on a statement from Nintendo Power.

Golden Gauntlet statement comes from website iirc, or at least, the statement is also on the website (moving a mountain right?)

 

[Chariot190]

Can confirm.
Nintendo Power.
And the website.
It's said in both.

Funnily enough, it's not even copy pasted lines, close, but not quite.
"The Golden Gauntlets can give a man the strength to move mountains."
"The Golden Gauntlets could give a man the strength to move mountains."

 

[Dust_Collector]

Yeah was about to say I just checked and saw that it's also from the official website, so the Class T rating should be fine to stay.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So everyone is on board with the format change and ability additions from the actual games, I can change the profile in that regard. Guess the only thing that needs a little more discussion is the validity of giving him abilities from the strategy guides.

 

[Chariot190]

Only bubble necromancy (he has necromatic powers, idk if bubbles in particular was him or were already a thing tho), hylia feat (wrong, it was morpha freezing the domain that drained the lake, though ganon made morpha do it so at best it's being indirect) and accelerated power (he probably does I just can't find a line in OOT for it) are the only "guide" feats that I can't find much in-game to corroborate.

The rest is fine imo, it's all pretty obviously what's happening in-game (Except maybe death mountain, i havent checked alttp yet).

 

[SamanPatou]

Ye, the guides work to confirm Disease, Ganon's spirit and the spell, tho disease should be minor, since it just gave a cold to a single kid.
I wouldn't use the guide to further support Immort 4, as it's possible that the Triforce just gave Ganondorf another boost in stamina and power.

NPI could be likely/possibly, while Necromancy and AD should be scappred.
Berserk Mode works from the games, both OoT and TP Ganon are rather animalistic.

 

[Armorchompy]

This is very minor but shouldn't Ganondorf have Preparation for like, everything he does in OoT?

 

[SamanPatou]

Yes (and also everything he schemes and plans in other games).

 

[Dust_Collector]

Oh yeah, forgot preparation is a abiltity we have. For the NPI the sages are also shown to be slightly transparent in game to further add to them not being physical beings, and I'm fine ditching the necromancy and AD.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Made the final adjustments to my sandbox according to what was discussed, I'll make the changes to the actual profile later when I get back from shopping.

 

[Chariot190]

NPI for the sage makes sense, imo he straight up punches and kills what is effectively a disembodied spirit.
Type 4 is just like, what happens, they say in WW and other such games that he was indeed killed and just revived like usual due to the Triforce (As you'd expect from a dude taking a sword through the skull). Tbh, the fact he only dies once the ToP leaves him in TP and they explicitly say he survived his execution due to it and further says that it was impossible to actually execute him now so they banished him due to the ToP, among a dozen other feats makes it really blatant that shit just keeps bringing him back or makes him hard to kill.
The berserk stuff just kinda be like it do.
Disease manip is just kinda what happens in game, but it's minor.