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Makina vs Knives

Equalizing speed is cowardice


On a serious note I'll comment here sometime after work tomorrow. I'd appreciate it if we didn't start this party till I have the time to argue.
 
Since it's been brought up again and again, i will post about God's authority

If 2 abilities clash one being an authority, the other not, it's not a matter of the stronger person winning, authorities are the rules themselves and thus will always win


[Let’s take Fate-san’s authority over fate as an example. First off all, the principle itself, Principle of Causality Manipulation can be used even by the upper ranks of the High-ranking Demons. There is even magic that allows you to see the future and manipulate the principle of causality.]

[Arehh? Then, wouldn’t magic, that could do the same thing as an authority, be superior?]

[Of course, even though it can’t do everything, magic does allow them to use such abilities. For example, if I wanted to determine the outcome of this dice roll, I could easily do that. In this situation, here’s a question. What would happen if Fate-san and I were to use our abilities to determine the roll of this die? If I try to get a one and Fate-san tries to get a six…… What do you think would happen?]

[Hmmm…… I guess that would depend on who’s stronger among you two huh?]
Indeed, even Ein-san can manipulate time, which makes me understand that what can be done with authority can also be done with magic. But then, I can’t tell the difference between magic and authority anymore. As I was thinking that, Fate-san asked Alice to explain again, which she reiterated with an explanation that’s easier to understand.


[As a matter of fact, that isn’t the case. Even if I’m many times stronger than Fate-san, in this case, the six that Fate-san determined will always come out. It’s the truth of the world that authority would always be superior to magic…… That is because authorities are the rules themselves. Thus, even if a magic and an authority were to do the same thing, the authority will always take precedence.]-Chapter 1183
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This is inherent to a God

[Authorities are inherent abilities of Gods, directly given to them by the absolute God of the world, Shallow Vernal-sama. At the same time, authority is also something that the Gods govern. The fact that Gods were referred to as “God of 〇〇〇” denotes the authority they govern.]

[Ehhh~~ In that case, how is that any different from magic?]

[Yes, they may be similar, but they’re also very different. The authority allows them control over the concept itself, so it’s a higher power than magic.]

[Teach. Please teach us in an easier to understand way.]

[Let’s see. If I were to compare it to sport, magic is an art that allows the athletes to improve, while the authority allows them to manipulate the rules of the game itself, or something like that? In the first place, in relation to existence, authorities are far higher.]-Chapter 1183
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So the whole discussion about concept destruction is irrelevant, Makina's power is conceptual, unless you resist that you aren't resisting her ability. so if she has can incap, which she does have stuff like sealing and paralysis for example, it's innately conceptual.

World Creators also got CM type 1 accepted. To break it down a regular god's authority like Chronois is conceptual and the rules themselves thus can't be overcome, and a world creator's authority like Shiro's is above even that.
 
Following, will comment later, though Pegasus, do you believe Knives beats Makina speed non-equalized?, need to know for listing reasons on the non-smurf thread.
 
Looks to me like Makina already resists a majority of the abilities presennt that would cause trouble to her and/or would potentially do so. Does plant have a way to deal with the powernull world creators use in their fights? Forgot if it's passive but it's probably start of fight considering fights between world creators always turn into fist fights despite their abilities. And then she has access to the infinite army to overwhelm. Her RE should probably be above Alice unless Alice is fighting for kaito, so it should include constantly growing in speed, strength and resistances to what's thrown at her. Idk if the knives RE includes constantly upgrading their speed like that. Only difference is probably the knives is passive, while her RE if it's like Alice isn't exactly passive against physical attacks?

But for now I say Makina out hax and outgrows
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
So the whole discussion about concept destruction is irrelevant, Makina's power is conceptual, unless you resist that you aren't resisting her ability. so if she has can incap, which she does have stuff like sealing and paralysis for example, it's innately conceptual.
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Okay so that does make sense, I thought you meant conceptual destruction as opposed to things working on a conceptual level.


Her Paralysis even if it's conceptual wouldn't really be more than a annoyance for Knives's since Angel Arm's and Angel Wing's work completely independently from Knives's own body so he has that as a saving grace and if not he can simply just kill himself and spawn a new body, either that or one of the many copies of Knives's will continue to fight.


Her sealing might be able to actually incapacitate him if it weren't for his Type 3 immortality allowing him to resurrect using the body of another Plant. So he has several counter-measures for her incapacitation options.



Her infinite army would actually work against her if anything since that would allow Knives's to absorb them, gaining their abilities and resistances while also giving him information on Eden's powers and abilities.



Also if this turns into a fist fight then Eden is at a great disadvantage considering Knives's can keep up with Vash in close range combat who's without a doubt much more skilled than Eden.
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Her RE should probably be above Alice unless Alice is fighting for kaito, so it should include constantly growing in speed, strength and resistances to what's thrown at her. Idk if the knives RE includes constantly upgrading their speed like that
Click to expand...
Knive's and Vash have the same Potency RE as Alice and Eden so it's likely not gonna much of a factor here since they both have the same level of RE.
 
It wouldn't turn into a fist fight, just that theirthat their powernull between world creators turn it into one. Because they nullify each others abilities to that extent, along with resistance to powernull. She wouldn't need to fist fight him essentially. And Makina's RE should be > Alice usually. Her very power is conceptual, so even with his resistances I don't think much could be done about it when paired with her other hax.

It looks like they might not be able to permanently put each other down, if anything. If the fight really does go on too long she could use her omniscience, find the countermeasures to his own and get the upper hand. There's also the fact she has an edge in experience with her RE considering the extended fights and layers of strength she's gained with her RE and fighting other similar beings.

If we are assuming both at their strongest though, then Makina can probably just use her omniscience, figure out she can either seal, and a counter-measure to his immortality like sealing the next body he would switch to. That and her very combat bending principles and concepts, and being able to manipulate those concepts like concept of fate, life, space and time. Each and every one of her clones can do these things too so he might be overwhelmed. From what I remember her strongest clones are abyss Tartarus which can easily destroy quasi-omnipotents which honestly should mean they can neg up mid-godly regen but maybe a stretch.
 
Enter_Bluey said:
It wouldn't turn into a fist fight, just that theirthat their powernull between world creators turn it into one. Because they nullify each others abilities to that extent, along with resistance to powernull. She wouldn't need to fist fight him essentially. And Makina's RE should be > Alice usually. Her very power is conceptual, so even with his resistances I don't think much could be done about it when paired with her other hax.
Click to expand...
Conceptual RE isn't a thing as far as I'm concerned, literally the first time I've heard that within this wiki. Even if it were Conceptual that wouldn't automatically make it better than Knives's whenever they have the same exact feats, and last I checked her RE is = Alice not >> Alice. RE isn't likely to make a big difference here given that they can only become so strong, and both have abilities that make things like AP irrelevant.
Enter_Bluey said:
It looks like they might not be able to permanently put each other down, if anything. If the fight really does go on too long she could use her omniscience, find the countermeasures to his own and get the upper hand.
Click to expand...
Yeah no, she isn't omniscient and there's no reason to assume she'd have knowledge about Knives's whenever she has no prior information about him. According to her profile she can't know what she doesn't already know, so there's nothing to imply she'd automatically have knowledge regarding Plants or Knives's.


Even then Knives's is able to protect his own information from being acknowledged via type 1 info Manipulation, and she has no counters to Knives's just absorbing her.
Enter_Bluey said:
There's also the fact she has an edge in experience with her RE considering the extended fights and layers of strength she's gained with her RE and fighting other similar beings.
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No, Knives's faced off against Vash who has the same level of RE as Eden. Layers of strength are irrelevant since both continue to grow stronger indefinitely.




Knives's simply absorbs one of her soldiers, gains information on her whereabouts and then proceeds to absorb her.
Enter_Bluey said:
If we are assuming both at their strongest though, then Makina can probably just use her omniscience, figure out she can either seal, and a counter-measure to his immortality like sealing the next body he would switch to.
Click to expand...
As far as I'm concerned she can't counter his type 3 Acausality Manipulation, if she seals another will just continue to replace Knives's. They'll just keep coming indefinitely since he's planted an image of himself within every plant, within every point in time, and the number of these copies are also infinite. A countless number of Knives's exist within all of reality.
 
Nah it's "she won't know what she isn't trying to know". Or rather she will only know what she is trying to know. And I wasn't even saying conceptual RE, mb if it seemed like that. Just meant her abilities are conceptual, the RE is something different. Alice and Makina have the same type of RE, however Makina is still stronger unless Alice is fighting for Kaito. If she is trying to know, then she probably will. This is in a situation with her at her strongest, so she will be utilizing it, to know about him.

Characters below world creators also have information manip, and resist information manip as they can conceal information about themselves. World creators can just ignore this and can also nullify information concealment anyway. Layers of strength also isn't irrelevant at all, as she will start off stronger, and have stronger resistances, stronger abilities, etc off the bat. Countless, I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, unless starting off at strongest is like both are already infinitely strong then probably is.

I also think the only real problem is the acausality 3, are these like literal plants? I think she really could just...mess with their concept and take care of it i'd say, remake their existence, distort the concept of plant to mess with his resurrection. After all she can see past present and future either way to do so
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Nah it's "she won't know what she isn't trying to know". Or rather she will only know what she is trying to know.
Click to expand...
And why would she assume he's a Plant? She has no prior knowledge of their existence, and even then there are two different types of Plants, Independent and Non-Independent Plants. So she'd need to actively figure out the existence of both types. Keep in mind Knives's can also hide his own information from being taken by opponents via his Information Manipulation.
Enter_Bluey said:
Characters below world creators also have information manip, and resist information manip as they can conceal information about themselves. World creators can just ignore this and can also nullify information concealment anyway.
Click to expand...
Are said characters 6-D? The ones below World Creators. Because even if it is, Knives's would have layers via upscaling from other Non-Independent Plants like Vash (Pre Plant Awakening.), Knives's weaker forms, The Black-Hole Plant, Knives's weaker forms, Domina, and the other Non-Independent Plant I'm forgetting the name of.
Enter_Bluey said:
Layers of strength also isn't irrelevant at all, as she will start off stronger, and have stronger resistances, stronger abilities, etc off the bat. Countless, I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, unless starting off at strongest is like both are already infinitely strong then probably is.
Click to expand...
They both have the same level of RE, Knives's also applies to his speed, strength, abilities and resistances.


Shit Vash went from being blitzed in his MTFL+ key by Knives's who had Infinite speed at the time then instantly closed that gap, and as far as I'm aware nobody in her verse is capable of going from Eden's level of speed to Infinite. So Knives's RE would be better suited for blitzing her right off the bat, and given that she's never dealt with Infinite speed attacks and movement. Even with speed equalization Knives's RE would allow him to blitz her to a level that she's never needed to deal with.


Has anyone in her verse ever used their RE to adapt and instantly match someone Infinitely faster? And before you say it, no someone going from 3-D to 6-D wouldn't give them Infinite speed. If they haven't (Which would need to be reflected in the profile.) then Knives's would be able to blitz her with his RE as his feats with his RE is inherently better at making him faster than the opponent.



Enter_Bluey said:
also think the only real problem is the acausality 3, are these like literal plants? I think she really could just...mess with their concept and take care of it i'd say, remake their existence, distort the concept of plant to mess with his resurrection. After all she can see past present and future either way to do so
Click to expand...
Wouldn't mean much given that he can grow to be Infinitely faster than her, a feat which she's never shown. Knives's & Vash were able to also blitz one another back and forth, both of whom have Infinite speed.




So yeah, the summary here is that Knives's Blitzes her to hell and back via his RE that also covers gaps of MFTL+ to Infinite differences in speed. And unlike Vash Eden's RE has never allowed her to adapt to people with Infinite speed.
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Via what, it will just lead to at best incon as Makina has fought someone with better abilities for over millions of years.
Click to expand...
No, if this is a prolonged battle she's losing via sheer virtue of her being incapable of reacting to Infinitely faster opponents. Knives's RE covers gaps like that and beyond.
 
LordGinSama said:
No, if this is a prolonged battle she's losing via sheer virtue of her being incapable of reacting to Infinitely faster opponents. Knives's RE covers gaps like that and beyond.
Click to expand...
She also increases her speed, so that is irrelevant as it's speed equal and they keep growing
 
Enter_Bluey said:
She also increases her speed, so that is irrelevant as it's speed equal and they keep growing
Click to expand...
That's absolutely not irrelevant, she's never adapted to attacks that are literally Infinitely faster than herself. Speed being equalized is irrelevant since Knives's RE allows him to blitz people with RE that allowed them to react to Infinitely faster opponents, again something Eden's never experienced.



Fight starts, they exchange attacks then Knives's instantly amps his speed to an infinite degree above her. Speed being equalized doesn't change the fact that his RE allows him to jump infinite gaps in speed whereas she can't otherwise she herself would have infinite speed on her profile. If she doesn't have feats of reacting to such vast differences in speed then you can't claim that she can grow to match Knives's RE which inherently can make him Infinitely faster than her.
 
In speed equal, the slower opponent isn't allowed to blitz the faster opponent via amps, so, Makina blitzing Knives via RE isn't even allowed, even if she could.
 
azontr said:
In speed equal, the slower opponent isn't allowed to blitz the faster opponent via amps, so, Makina blitzing Knives via RE isn't even allowed, even if she could.
Click to expand...
? That's not the arguement. It's the opposite of knives and her starting off speed equal, then him jumping to infinite
 
Knives is the faster opponent, so technically he's allowed to do that lol. And can do that with his RE, seemingly.
 
azontr said:
Knives is the faster opponent, so technically he's allowed to do that lol. And can do that with his RE, seemingly.
Click to expand...
I... don't see where it stated that the equalized faster opponent allowed to boost its amps while the slower can't?
 
here's the quote on the speed equalization rule
Per default the following rules and assumptions will be taken if a match takes place in a speed equalized setting:


  • The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
    • Speed Amplification techniques are assumed to grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.
  • Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
    • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
    • Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against not-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.
    • While time stop, which could be viewed as an infinite speed amplification, is assumed to work even on characters that would usually bypass it via speed, those matches can likewise not be added.
  • Abilities based on speed are assumed to be retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one by this manner, even though they are now running slower.
    • As a result, Immeasurable characters that get speed equalized retain their ability to travel through time, even if it now isn't via speed anymore.
Click to expand...
didn't see anything like what you said anywhere here tbh
 
Noneless21 said:
I... don't see where it stated that the equalized faster opponent allowed to boost its amps while the slower can't?
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Versus Thread Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is mainly a site that attempts to index the statistics of characters across many different fictional franchises. However, as the site name implies, we also allow our members to pit fictional characters against each other in hypothetical matchups for entertainment purposes...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
  • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
 
Rikimarox2 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Versus Thread Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is mainly a site that attempts to index the statistics of characters across many different fictional franchises. However, as the site name implies, we also allow our members to pit fictional characters against each other in hypothetical matchups for entertainment purposes...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
  • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
Click to expand...
...this is for adding match to the profile... completely different from this case
 
Anyway unless anyone shows me scans of Eden's RE covering gaps from MFTL+ to infinite then proceed to blitzing one another like Vash and Knives's do then it cannot be assumed that she can react to Knives's who'll eventually grow Infinitely faster than her.
 
Makina starts off massively higher than him, and can just either incap or destroy him. I don't see him instantly jumping to infinite speed, let alone instantly REing an opponent to instantly be infinitely faster in his profile. Her omniscience is easily enough to know about his existence and the plants throughout time
 
If yall top 5 goober ahhh mfs don't give a shit about versus thread rules then ignore that ig 🏃‍♂️

BTW, uh, I'm voting Knives. I've seen no concrete argument for Makina actually being able to kill Knives, just incap him, which means jack, because he has a bunch of clones/copies he can use as his bodies to avoid it.

So uh yeah count my vote for him, don't @ me.
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Makina starts off massively higher than him, and can just either incap or destroy him.
Click to expand...
No she absolutely does not.
Enter_Bluey said:
I don't see him instantly jumping to infinite speed, let alone instantly REing an opponent to instantly be infinitely faster in his profile.
Click to expand...
Vash's profile. 💀 someone obviously ain't reading shit. Azontr can also vouch on the legitimacy as he just saw the scans.
Enter_Bluey said:
Her omniscience is easily enough to know about his existence and the plants throughout time
Click to expand...
Omniscient doesn't give her infinite speed.
 
I never said it gives her infinite speed, and yes, it does make her stronger as she has more experience with her RE from her battles which she keeps, thus she is higher than him absolutely. He doesn't just instantly RE to an opponents strength
 
Thank you god for not making any of my favorite verses tier 1. Otherwise, I'd have to deal with shit like this.

Anyways, from the arguments I've read, I'm seeing Knives' arguments more convincing, so I'm voting for him FRA.
 
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