Make TM matchups great again (4D invul/hax removal)

[Wankbreaker]

4D hax (including invul comes from the soul being situated in a higher dimension), and magecraft coming from it, therefore any and every magecraft must be 4D, right? Wrong.

The materialization of the soul (aka, the cyber avatars) on the mooncell are still 3 dimensional beings, and still do not have a higher perspective over the world like say, BB. So anything and everything coming from the soul should not be assumed to have higher dimensional potency.

In addition, being of a higher dimension is stated directly to not innately grant you extra power over beings of a lower one.

Sora no Soto says:

「 悪 い ん ？ 私 は 私 が 一 番 大 事 だ っ て い う の ！ だ い た い 貴 方 、 こ の 宇 宙 の 発 生 源 で し ょ ！ ？ 神 さ ま が 創 造 物 に や ら れ る の っ て お か し く な い ！ 作 中 の キ ャ ラ が 反 乱 な ん か お こ し た ら こ の 世 の あ ら ゆ る 小 説 家 は 殺 さ れ て る し ！ 」
"Got a problem with that? I prioritize myself! Besides, you're this universe's origin, right?! Shouldn't the Creator dominate their creations? If fictional characters rebelled, every novelist on Earth would be dead!"

「 ま さ か 。 創 造 主 は 無 敵 じ ゃ な い 。 次 元 が 違 う か ら と い っ て 神 さ ま ぶ る の は ど う か と 思 う な ー 。 僕 の 時 代 で は ま だ そ の 域 に は 達 し て い な か っ た け ど 、 君 の 時 代 で は も う 社 会 の 大 半 は ソ フ ト で 成 り 立 っ て い る ん じ ゃ な い ？ 数 字 と 記 号 で 構 成 さ れ た モ ノ が 君 た ち の 社 会 を 補 助 し て い る と し た ら 、 君 た ち の 方 こ そ 、 そ の う ち 要 ら な い モ ノ に な っ ち ゃ う ぞ 」
"Hardly. Creators aren't invincible. Being from a higher dimension doesn't make one a god. My era hadn't reached that level, but in yours, isn't society already governed by software? If systems built from numbers and symbols sustain your world, then you humans risk becoming the dispensable components."


「なにその龍弁。そりやエクセルとか便利だけど、ハードそもそも機械あってのものじゃない。筺がなかったらそもそも存在しないんだし、人工知能に人間が支配される時が来るとか、使い古しもいいとこなんですけど」
"What's with the pompous spiel? Sure, Excel is convenient, but hardware is fundamental. Without a physical chassis, they wouldn't even exist! And this talk of AI dominating humans? That's beyond cliché!"

「その考えが古いんだ。知性を走らせるための筐体なんて必要ない。なにしろ有るだけ資源の無駄だ。最終的な宇宙のエネルギー総量を量るのなら、わざわざ物理法則に縛られるカタチに固執することもない。エネルギーの消費効率で言うなら、情報だけで成立する彼らは君たちより優れた生命だ」
"That thinking's outdated. Intelligence doesn't need physical vessels. They're just wasted resources. When measuring the universe's total energy, why cling to forms bound by physical laws? By energy efficiency alone, beings existing purely as information are superior lifeforms to you."

「彼ら？じゃ、あれももしかして一次元人！？」
"Them? Wait—are those things one-dimensional beings too!?"

「君の観念で堪えるのならそうかもだ。これもミクロとマクロだな。プログラムがより多層化し並列化し無矛盾性を獲得した時、そこに生命が生まれる。生命になったからにはー長い年月の末、いつかは自分たちを造った上位存在に弓を引く時もくるだろう。なにしろ、神さまってのも資源の無駄だからね」
“If your mind can accept that label, perhaps. Another micro-macro duality. When programs achieve multi-layered parallel processing and logical consistency, life emerges. And once alive... eventually, they'll turn against their creators. After all, even 'gods' are resource-intensive redundancies."

「げ、合体した！なんか宇宙が白くなるぐらい発光してるんですけど！やばくない？ね、私たちやばくない！？」
"Gah! They merged! The whole universe is glowing white! Isn't this bad?! Hey, aren't we in trouble!?"

「ああ、創造主は倒されるものだ。仮に、この宇宙が僕に造られたものであったとしても。仮に、君の宇宙が誰かに造られたものだったとしても。造られたものが、その枠組みを超える自由はあるだろう」
"Indeed. Creators exist to be overthrown. Even if this universe was made by me. Even if your universe was made by someone. The created have the right to transcend their frameworks."

「なに落ち着きはらってんの！？：他人事じゃないっての、いま貴方も倒されるところだってば！ジャストナウ！」
"Why are you so calm?! This isn't abstract—you're about to be overthrown right now!"

Lower dimensional beings are able to surpass and overthrow higher ones.

More great examples include ORT having a lower dimensionality than the throne of heroes, or higher dimensional divine spirits Stheno and Euryale being stronger as lower dimensional servants, or for something of wider application, Higher Dimensional divine spirits having lesser hax and power than their lower dimensional physical bodies as Gods.

Also, afaik, there was never an explanation given as to why the invul applies to literally everything outside of verse, and not just non-supernatural attacks, or physical attacks not amped by a supernatural force, so that should be removed as well.

 

[Huesito88]

Stop this Breaker downgrades are EVIL!

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

TBH, I wanna join in the fun with these hax downgrade, but I am gonna wait till the verse has actually revised the servent physiology page. I can't wait for the new Servant physiology page!

Either way, I agree.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Stop this Breaker downgrades are EVIL!

I was told the main reason the verse was inactive was because of lack of matchups.

seeking overinflated stats really does harm the growth of the verse

 

[SweetDao]

Doesn't that still postulate the soul in Nasuverse is dimensioned tho

 

[Wankbreaker]

Doesn't that still postulate the soul in Nasuverse is dimensioned tho

It is, that’s the main reason why the original upgrade got accepted.

 

[SweetDao]

It is, that’s the main reason why the original upgrade got accepted.

Weird ass soul

 

[Huesito88]

Evil bump

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Finally, no more 4D gg, I use to pray for times like this

I agree

 

[Firestorm808]

Seems fine.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Seems fine.

Could you call in more staff?

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

It’s that easy, huh.

Agreed

 

[Re5yh]

Agree, also what tier is this?

 

[Wankbreaker]

Agree, also what tier is this?

No tier change, this is P&A.

 

[DaReaperMan]

"This will make matches happen again!"

And to that I say: with what decent profiles? Y'know, the pieces of shit that largely haven't been changed since 2020 at best? It's not going to suddenly change things, y'know. Plus, anyone with a high enough message count is going to avoid using a profile with an Outdated template on it for obvious reasons of the page being dogshit

Do I disagree with the thread? No. But your motivations are woefully misplaced.

 

[Wankbreaker]

"This will make matches happen again!"

And to that I say: with what decent profiles? Y'know, the pieces of shit that largely haven't been changed since 2020 at best? It's not going to suddenly change things, y'know. Plus, anyone with a high enough message count is going to avoid using a profile with an Outdated template on it for obvious reasons of the page being dogshit

Do I disagree with the thread? No. But your motivations are woefully misplaced.

That tag is going to be plastered on the profiles until revisions are completely done. Which judging by the current pace? 3 years minimum.

There would genuinely be no difference in outcome from me doing this now, and me doing this in 2028 or so.

 

[Violatas]

Bump
Also agreed
Ftr many have tried removing this but it was always rejected for reasons I'll refrain from saying

 

[Vietthai96]

3 years minimum

Well, shit

 

[Violatas]

Bump

 

[Wankbreaker]

Bump…

 

[Firestorm808]

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[Firestorm808]

Looks alright.

Thank you for your input.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Sora no Soto say

Before considering the scan or analyzing what it means, the Nasuverse page states:

Although DDD and Canaan were written by Nasu, they are not considered canon to the Nasuverse.

Sora no Soto is a DDD side story, so the scan is not relevant to the verse.

 

[Violatas]

Before considering the scan or analyzing what it means, the Nasuverse page states:

Although DDD and Canaan were written by Nasu, they are not considered canon to the Nasuverse.

Sora no Soto is a DDD side story, so the scan is not relevant to the verse.

Forgot about that rule. DDD actually should be canon and is only considered not because of a misinterpretation of Nasu saying it's not part of Fate, knk and Tsukihime.

But sure we can save the canonicity of it for another thread. Was only one example given out of the others mentioned

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The other examples are vague and lacking scans, but if you want me to take a look at them, I didn't find them persuasive.

4D hax (including invul comes from the soul being situated in a higher dimension), and magecraft coming from it, therefore any and every magecraft must be 4D, right? Wrong.

The materialization of the soul (aka, the cyber avatars) on the mooncell are still 3 dimensional beings, and still do not have a higher perspective over the world like say, BB. So anything and everything coming from the soul should not be assumed to have higher dimensional potency.

As explained in the verse, Magecraft-level materialization of the soul isn't complete and fails to manifest a higher-dimensional being; this can instead be done through the Third Magic.



Also, the current standards don't claim that everything coming from the soul has a higher dimensional potency; a note is made against that.

Servants, just like Phantasmal Beasts and Dead Apostles, have innate resistance to Magecraft due to having Mystery. Due to Magecraft's nature as magical energy from the soul given form, and the Soul's nature as a higher dimensional form, the resistances and effects listed thereof are at least 4 dimensional in nature, although it should be noted that physical phenomena attacks, like Elemental Manipulation, do not work like that, as they are not spiritual or metaphysical in nature.

ORT having a lower dimensionality than the throne of heroes

Even assuming ORT has a lower dimensionality than the Throne of Heroes, what is the argument?

higher dimensional divine spirits Stheno and Euryale being stronger as lower dimensional servants

Citation that Stheno and Euryale are higher dimensional existences?

there was never an explanation given as to why the invul applies to literally everything outside of verse, and not just non-supernatural attacks, or physical attacks not amped by a supernatural force, so that should be removed as well.

What exactly are you proposing to be removed? The standards on Servant invulnerability doesn't claim Servants have invulnerability to everything outside the verse.

Invulnerability: Servants are Divine Mysteries that cannot be harmed by modern weapons such as guns, knives, or bombs unless they are infused with a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Forgot about that rule. DDD actually should be canon and is only considered not because of a misinterpretation of Nasu saying it's not part of Fate, knk and Tsukihime.

But sure we can save the canonicity of it for another thread. Was only one example given out of the others mentioned

DDD is also a part of Character Material, which is called a TYPE-MOON setting book. everything in it is thus, considered a part of the franchise.

We don't pick and choose what is or isn't canon here. I've already dealt with enough of that.

 

[Wankbreaker]

The other examples are vague and lacking scans, but if you want me to take a look at them, I didn't find them persuasive.


As explained in the verse, Magecraft-level materialization of the soul isn't complete and fails to manifest a higher-dimensional being; this can instead be done through the Third Magic.

So, magecraft isnt higher-dimensional in potency inherently, like what was said?

The higher-dimensional soul is noted to be seperate from the soul that persists within the body, as well, and is made up of spiritrons. Mages can only make use of "Pseudo" Spiritrons.

Edin Shugurra Collapsar.
The Goddess of the Underworld, born in the Primordial Universe and destined to exist until the End Universe, wields an Anti-Humanity/Anti-Beast-Rearing Noble Phantasm that unlocks her higher-dimensional soul and opens a path from the past to the future.

The open path is a distorted region extending towards the end of space, through which the history of humanity, up to its end, flows as photon information. It is impossible to defy or survive this flow. When the Noble Phantasm is deployed, any nearby enemies will be engulfed and killed.
→ Possibly a black hole.

Only those guided by Anki-Ereshkigal can reach the radiant end within this path.
→ Possibly Master.

A magnificent and gorgeous Noble Phantasm whose power and cinematics evolve with increased affinity during combat. Affinity also rises with overcharge.

Also, the current standards don't claim that everything coming from the soul has a higher dimensional potency; a note is made against that.

Servants, just like Phantasmal Beasts and Dead Apostles, have innate resistance to Magecraft due to having Mystery. Due to Magecraft's nature as magical energy from the soul given form, and the Soul's nature as a higher dimensional form, the resistances and effects listed thereof are at least 4 dimensional in nature, although it should be noted that physical phenomena attacks, like Elemental Manipulation, do not work like that, as they are not spiritual or metaphysical in nature.

Even assuming ORT has a lower dimensionality than the Throne of Heroes, what is the argument?

ORT is able to affect and take in its data.

Citation that Stheno and Euryale are higher dimensional existences?

Do you think divine spirits are higher-dimensional existences? Judging from past claims of yours, I believe that to be the case, so the question answers itself.

What exactly are you proposing to be removed? The standards on Servant invulnerability doesn't claim Servants have invulnerability to everything outside the verse.

Invulnerability: Servants are Divine Mysteries that cannot be harmed by modern weapons such as guns, knives, or bombs unless they are infused with a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age.

That was what was described to me.

Also, the higher-dimensional potency thing is bunk and should be removed.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Proposal looks good

 

[Violatas]

DDD is also a part of Character Material, which is called a TYPE-MOON setting book. everything in it is thus, considered a part of the franchise.

You can make a CRT for it to be accepted as canon on here. DDD profiles would neat too now that I think about it. Kanata for instance is basically a mix of Arcueid and Ciel in terms of hax (and like Ciel was tortured for awhile due to being tough to kill kek).

After this has concluded ofc

 

[Tipoima]

why the hell do i even follow Wank if I don't get notifications over new threads and only find them a month later

 

[Wankbreaker]

You can make a CRT for it to be accepted as canon on here. DDD profiles would neat too now that I think about it. Kanata for instance is basically a mix of Arcueid and Ciel in terms of hax (and like Ciel was tortured for awhile due to being tough to kill kek).

After this has concluded ofc

only tier one threads need 3 votes iirc, so this can be considered done. Ill make the needed edits now.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Quick. What matchups can be made now

 

[Huesito88]

Quick. What matchups can be made now

Tons

 

[Wankbreaker]

Tons

Matches like this, for example

Battle of the Swordsmen (Artoria vs Zoro)

Zoro got lost and entered the 5th Holy Grail War. Encountering Artoria, Zoro wants to test his sword skills. Standard Battle Assumptions Speed equalized Zoro scales to 200.99 Gigatons in base without haki, 17.25343 Teratons with his strongest attacks. Artoria scales to 2.8882 Teratons with...

vsbattles.com

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Matches like this, for example

Battle of the Swordsmen (Artoria vs Zoro)

Zoro got lost and entered the 5th Holy Grail War. Encountering Artoria, Zoro wants to test his sword skills. Standard Battle Assumptions Speed equalized Zoro scales to 200.99 Gigatons in base without haki, 17.25343 Teratons with his strongest attacks. Artoria scales to 2.8882 Teratons with...

vsbattles.com

I thought we aren’t allowed to use outdated profiles

 

[Wankbreaker]

I thought we aren’t allowed to use outdated profiles

It's allowed, just usually not advised

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

It's allowed, just usually not advised

I guess they were capping when they said it’s not allowed. Alr then. (Also no more in verse honkai matches now, time for Archer Vs Goku)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Quick. What matchups can be made now

Let's do some Tensura vs nasuverse since both have been nuked hard.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Let's do some Tensura vs nasuverse since both have been nuked hard.

Archer Vs Mori Dan