Maginaryworld: Possibly 2-A?

[JJSliderman]

I know the Maginaryworld discussion already wrapped up but, I figured it was worth positing.

Maginaryworld is currently accepted as a structure consisting of countless universes*the number of regular dimensions in Sonic. However, I think there’s potential to push it a little higher.

Multiple times, it’s stated that dreams are both wishes, thoughts, and a reflection of reality in some aspects. Moreover, dreams have been stated by a WoG source to possess no true limitations. (1:32:46)

This is important because, multiple characters in the series have demonstrated an understanding of the concept of multiple dimensions, going off of the Sonic Rush games. That, and the concept of infinity has existed for a long time prior to the first Sonic game in universe, now that the two worlds theory is officially dead. With that in mind, it would make logical sense that at some point, someone in the Sonic multiverse would have a dream that encompassed more than one universe, potentially a dream of hopping between different universes in the scope of one dream. And, if that individual was aware of the concept of infinity, it’s possible that dream could extend to encompass a multiverse, consisting of infinite separate dimensions in the scope of one dream. And since Maginaryworld is capable of holding all dreams, it would feasibly have to contain a dream of that scope.

Since something like this has never been shown on screen, it obviously can’t get a flat 2-A rating. However, the fact that something like this could be conceptually feasible in the context of Maginaryworld, and the fact that it would just be a small part of the overall world, makes it seem like it’s possible that Maginaryworld could go from a 2-B structure to a 2-B, possibly 2-A structure, which would extend to at least the Solaris tiers (since if a dream like that ever existed, Solaris would absolutely catch it). With Egg Wizard it’s a little more unclear, since an infinite multiverse dream may not have existed yet at the time of Shuffle, so if this was considered maybe scaling there could be discussed.

 

[Sniper670]

Eh, iffy.

I'll be neutral. I want to to see what staff have to say about this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Countless doesn't quite mean infinite, it just means a big number. And population of Earth alone should make it in the billions; and should be much higher when other creatures and other planets are considered, but infinite is still a stretch.

 

[JJSliderman]

That wasn’t really what I was referring to.
Moreso the idea that an individual person could have a dream that encompasses an entire multiverse, if they were aware of the concepts of a multiverse and/or infinity, because that would become a thought in their head, and Maginaryworld could hold that in theory.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I feel that this is a slippery slope. By this logic, people dreaming about things like String Theory and similar ideas would make Maginaryworld encompass such things as well.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah but, if it’s already acknowledged that Maginaryworld can contain universe sized dreams, and all a multiverse would do is layer the dream with extra parallel universes that would still fall under the same dimensional plane as one universe.
I don’t really think it would be that much of a jump.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Too much speculation here. Better to stick with what’s solid and that’s 2-B.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t really think there’s that much speculation involved to say that at some point in history, throughout all the different universes shown off in the series and in the future, someone at some point in their life dreamed of an infinite multiverse, if they were aware of the concept of other dimensions to begin with. Arguably there’s just as much speculation in saying that every single person and animal throughout history would definitively have a dream that encompasses a universe at some point.

 

[SaberPhantasy9]

you're a mad genius for making this thread honestly

i think 2-b possibly 2-A should be fine?

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah I agree this is speculative territory

 

[JJSliderman]

It is speculative but, I still upine it’s worth a possibly rating, by virtue of how unlikely it is that people who know of the existence of other dimensions throughout all of history, in all dimensions would never dream about exploring an infinite multiverse. Someone with Tails or Eggman’s IQ would almost certainly think of the concept at least once, even if it turned out not to be true.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I don’t really think there’s that much speculation involved to say that at some point in history, throughout all the different universes shown off in the series and in the future, someone at some point in their life dreamed of an infinite multiverse, if they were aware of the concept of other dimensions to begin with. Arguably there’s just as much speculation in saying that every single person and animal throughout history would definitively have a dream that encompasses a universe at some point.

Problem is like Shake said, it’s a slippery slope. Yeah, I know you’re not trying to shoot for tier 1 but if you take any conceivable idea of dreams to their most extreme like “I dream to transcend all dimensions” then you could say Maginaryworld is 1-A. It’s best to go with what’s safe with what we can observe from the dream worlds and that’s them being a reflection of the dreamer’s universe where their dream has been realized, otherwise it’s getting into serious NLF territory.

 

[JJSliderman]

The thing is that Maginaryworld itself imposes a cap on the idea of higher dimensions. The apex of the dimension is “4th Dimension Space” where everything is spawned from and centralized. That, and the one and only higher dimensional entity in the games has been dead for years, so the idea of higher dimensional dreams is far less likely to be there. And I’m sure most dreamers would not consider the idea of dimensional tiering, whereas the idea of infinite parallel universes makes more sense to at least someone, given the idea of parallel universes existing is a recurring trend in the series.

 

[JJSliderman]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

Well, while there's not necessarily "2-A" dreams per-say, the WoG statement on there being in a way the potential for that inclines me to believe that 2-A could be argued out of this space having the capability to sustain structures on that level, Anos and KH currently rely on similar semantics for 2-A.

 

[JJSliderman]

That’s why I was thinking of a “possibly” 2-A, because there’s potential for dreams of that size, and stopping tier 1 stuff by using the 4th dimension as a cap.

 

[Sniper670]

Uhh, what if 4th Dimension cap didn't exist?

Why would that lead to tier 1? It's not as if anyone has knowledge of "infinite higher dimensional hierarchies", or I'm just missing something

 

[JJSliderman]

Well ig b/c Eggman studied Solaris and knew he he was higher dimensional, so it’s possible he had a dream involving higher dimensions at some point before Solaris’s defeat.

Hence the slippery slope aspect. But adding this cap would prevent that.

 

[Sniper670]

Ahh, I see.

Possibly is fine then. Bobsican made some great points there

 

[Fixxed]

If that structure can contain infinite universes, then its 2A structure

No matter if that just contain countless universes, or 100, or just 1, or even not contain at all

 

[JJSliderman]

Well admittedly this is more of a, theoretical thing.
Based on how individual dreams are stated not to have limitations, yet are still all contained in Maginaryworld.
It’s also possible that could translate to infinite size 3D universes, with there being a finite amount of them, which I guess wouldn’t qualify as 2-A.
I’m going under the assumption that a 2-C or 2-A dream could exist, due to it already being accepted that dreams are wishes or thoughts that have yet to come true, and thoughts like that logically being capable of existing in the context of the series.

 

[JJSliderman]

So I know the slippery slope aspect was mentioned earlier, and it was probably referring to Maginaryworld specifically, but it is true that you can apply this logic to other dream multiverses, like Dream Depot, with the exception that they don’t have any sort of explicit in-universe cap to how big they can get. Maybe stuff like that can also be talked about.

 

[Theuser789]

I still disagree, but I don't think Ian's assumption even works as solid WoG in favor of this

 

[JJSliderman]

The assumption is more just there to say something that makes sense anyway. I don’t think there was any argument that the world couldn’t contain a dream of that scope, and it seems very unlikely to me that one would never think of or ponder the concept of exploring a vast multiverse in the scope of a singular thought in the context of this series. I’m sure even in real life, there have been dreams of exploring infinite, or at least multiple, dimensions. And if all the dreams are under the umbrella of the fourth dimension, an infinite amount of 3D space could reasonably be contained there.

 

[Theuser789]

The problem is that you don't have evidence for that. Speculation and conjecture can't grant a rating by itself. Sorry.

 

[JJSliderman]

I’d argue there’s less evidence in saying that every single person and sentient organism that ever existed across all of time in all dimensions would at some point have a universal sized dream, let alone having a dream of that size every single time. Compared to that, one person dreaming of an infinite multiverse is much more feasible.

And well, I don’t wanna call the kettle black, but the entire Low 4-C rating for Sonic is based on the conjecture that the hole in the star is visible from Earth. So conjecture and speculation seemingly can grant a rating by itself.

 

[JJSliderman]

Bump, ig if this doesn’t pan out I would like it left open for at least a little while, maybe to get some tangible clarification on the potential scope of Maginaryworld.

 

[Remus1998]

So your main argument for "2-B, possibly 2-A" stems from the possibility that an infinite multiverse could be dreamt up correct?

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah.
I’m going off the statement that dreams have no limitations, and that Maginaryworld holds every dream from all dimensions, and that dreams are the reflections of the wishes and thoughts of the dreamer. I’m also going off that every dream across all of time would be affected by Solaris, so that at some point, someone with knowledge about other universes and the concept of infinity would put two and two together and dream of an infinite multiverse.

But maybe I should just wait and ask on the kast if Maginaryworld can hold dreams of that scope before continuing, if people are skeptical.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

But maybe I should just wait and ask on the kast if Maginaryworld can hold dreams of that scope before continuing, if people are skeptical.

Is it the same Kast where Sonic is capped at mach 1 tops, Shadow is barely 8-B and super forms are small asteroid level? If yes then I dunno about that one chief.

Personally I've always been against relying on WoG, you could word it so it doesn't come across as a leading question but I can't in good faith recommend such practices.

Overall I'm neutral on this CRT. I've been aware of the MWI for the game Sonic cosmology for a long time now but it still relies on little too much on assumptions for my tastes but it does have it's merits.

 

[JJSliderman]

Idk, I think if I just ask if a dream of any scope can be held in Maginaryworld and word it in the proper way, there can be an answer to this and the thread can move on from there.
At least there will be something beyond just speculation and extrapolating the meaning besides “dreams not having limits” to “dreams can be multi+ size and Maginaryworld can hold them”.

 

[Theuser789]

Isn't using WoG in that way against the rules?

 

[JJSliderman]

Oh, well I wasn’t aware of that.

I still think from a logic standpoint Maginaryworld having an infinite size makes sense. But if people wanna treat it as more high 3-A than 2-A I guess I can understand that.

 

[Violatas]

Can't say much that hasn't already been said. 2-A needs more backing that doesn't rely too heavily on assumption.

 

[y3p_owo]

I disagree fra

 

[JJSliderman]

Probably doesn’t change much, but Ian did say that stuff like Maginaryworld holding dreams of any size, shape, concept or range that the dreamer can think of, as well as Maginaryworld having a dedicated space for each dreamer and holding all dreams ever, is pretty much true.

 

[Remus1998]

Probably doesn’t change much, but Ian did say that stuff like Maginaryworld holding dreams of any size, shape, concept or range that the dreamer can think of, as well as Maginaryworld having a dedicated space for each dreamer and holding all dreams ever, is pretty much true.

When?

 

[JJSliderman]

In the Q&A podcast stream.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

isn't it stated that maginaryworld takes dreams from all dimensions which would include itself?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

isn't it stated that maginaryworld takes dreams from all dimensions which would include itself?

if youre talking about dreams from beings inside maginary world those probably count, but im no sonic expert