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I do believe that you're right there. I don't see anything that isn't learned naturally either by LvL Ups, Egg Moves, etc.Drite77 said:I don't think that Pokémon have their Tutor and TM moves on their profile anyway
In game, Machamp's bulk up is a 1.5x boost to AP and durability, and is described as a slight boost in Mystery Dungeon. Still, it's respectable. Garou's amps allowed him to go from being practically stomped by Darkshine (i.e. his ribs got broken from a move that Garou partially reflected, Garou couldn't harm him whatsoever) to overpowering Darkshine in both speed and AP. Darkshine can no-sell attacks from Bang who can harm Elder Centipede, who is around 205 megatons.Kappatalism said:Its just head cannon to think that his two buffers give more of an amp than machamps bulk up. Isn't garou's calc with his amps? You realize machamps are without his amp. Bulk up can be wtwcked multiple times, garou's amps are unquantifable so far for this debate. If you can quantify i dont see why any of you boted garou. OP never restricted tutor moves and HM moves either. How does Garou come back from orbit after being tossed there with seismic toss?
If machamp does not have a wincon its a stomp by your definition.The Calaca said:Stomp = Match where one of the sides has no possibilities to win.
Decisive = Match where one of the sides holds an amount of advantages that edges their opponent and/or counter their fighting style.
If you're defending that Machamp is a lot stronger then don't argue this is a stomp against him. Be coherent with yourself.
Punching/tossing over the horizon is something that Garou can come back from.Kappatalism said:Its pokedex entry makes this its go to
Which is basically Garou's too.Drite77 said:Machamp's Wincon is hitting till Garou dies
Machamp has enough punching force to toss garou into orbit.Drite77 said:But Garou's better at that than Machamp
If machamp has no win con and can't possibly win, how isn't it a stomp? I mean, they're saying garou gets infinitely stronger than machamp.Schnee One said:Because you kept arguing stomp instead, why did you forget?
If they refuse to quantify how much stronger, even though machamp can stack his boosts and defense drops on garou, as well as reduce any apeedups garou has, how do they have any votes? Garou loses because machamp would have mastered garou's martial art via sba, correct? Machamp can lower garou's defense/durability 4x with leer and increase his own with bulk up 4x. He so will neg any speed up with scary face. Garou can't deal with seismic toss and being punched across the horizon multiple times. He would also become frozen, paralyzed, or burned. Youre acting like also that no guard won't work and he can't confuse hax with thunderpunch and dynamic punch combo. If none of this works then machamp has no chance. Also, foresight removes evasion bonuses as well. Starts out weaker, in everything, and gains on machamp potentially in AP. But he gets negged. Even if their AP was the same, it would eventually be a 16x difference with bulk up and leer. Thats a one shot.The Calaca said:Literally nobody said Garou would get infinitely strongee than Machamp.
There you go with the limitless scaling garou. You are saying he just gets stronger based on some unquantifable feat. There is nothing stopping machamp from continiously punching him across the horizon. You are equalizing all of the resistances that he has like they scale to him, when garou just blatenly out powers them. Machamp outscales garou in all assets, and since you can't quantify his boosts, it is disingenuous to say that he just wins by outscaling. It would be a NLF to say he scales above everyone. You also need to show his analytical skills overcoming something like no guard. You realize that the durability and AP difference is massive, as machamp scales to dugtrio who creates enormous earthquakes and can tank them at the same time.The Calaca said:Because Garou would keep progressing, growing stronger and faster.
We don't take the in-game multipliers AFAIK. Otherwise the profiles would be a mess since some of them would scale to higher tiers just with the amps.
Garou can run back from the horizon. Isn't like BFRing him to the next state would stop him since both are playing at Relativistic speeds. Not like Machamp would resort to that or would land the hit that many times as you suggest. Has Seismic Toss ever BFRd someone to space at all?
Dunno how we treat No-Guard, but it sounds a little NLFish.
Burning or paralyzing Garou is either unlikely or useless considering he has resistances to those things. Frozing him would only incap seeing as there's no proof that Ice Punch frostbites.
Magnitude 8.5 | 6.934258e+21 | 1.65732743786 teratons | Small Country level |
Luckily it is, that is where I got it from. Machamp scales to dugtrio in AP. Try again. Scales to other Pokémon on its level such as Dugtrio). The AP gap is way too high. Machamp wins. There is a reason machamp is Mountain level+ and not Likely Mountain level. There is a big gap between them in AP and durability. Machamp also can use earthquake as a TM move, so it can generate this force. Dynamic punch with its 50% bonus from being stab and being the same power as earthquake makes it well into 6B, and it can use dynamic punch with each of its 4 arms.The Calaca said:No, if I say that Garou would adapt to a 6-C punch then I'd be limitlessly scaling Garou. But guess what, he can take attacks from someone on his tier that it's around 2.5x stronger and won't get one-shoted.
Yes, there is a thing that'd stop him. Garou's adaptability which will make him not only able to just dodge or redirect the attack but to tank the force required to send someone across the horizon.
Funny. Garou took the fire from a 7-A, likely High 6-C while being 7-B. Dunno about the other cases, but his resistance isn't him overpowering the opponent's fire.
In-game multipliers aren't valids outside of, of course, the games. Show me those multipliers existing in any other PKMN media and then I'll concede. But considering Machamp can't turn High 7-A not even with a 2x Bulk Up then it's a moot point. So yes, you can't quantify their boosts either.
When Garou starts weaker yet somehow you imply that I argue Garou to be stronger. He isn't, but he will.
Good thing we don't use Magnitude nor Earthquake to scale the characters. Want to change that? Content Revision Board is your place. Pretty sure we had that discussion before.
Also, the 1.6 Teratons comes from shaking the whole world, IIRC.
@Kappatalism ^ The Earthquakes are unreliable, they are not comparable to IRL onesDrite77 said:We don't scale the mons to Dugtrio's Earthquakes anymore BTW
Do a CRT then. Because that is what it says. I was told to do a CRT to change what I brought to the table.Drite77 said:We don't scale the mons to Dugtrio's Earthquakes anymore BTW
Machamp has similar power moves to earthquake, like its Dynamic punch, which was the reference. But it can use earthquake, and its within its capabilities, even if the TM move does not exist on the useable pokemon for VS battles. Its power scales to dugtrio based on its page, and dugtrio is still scaled based on its earthquakes. Do a CRTDrite77 said:@Kappatalism ^ The Earthquakes are unreliable, they are not comparable to IRL onesDrite77 said:We don't scale the mons to Dugtrio's Earthquakes anymore BTW
And again, the profiles don't even have the TMs or Tutor Moves on their move set of the wiki, so it is no use to debate them here
then do a CRT. It is still on the profilesDrite77 said:There was already one, this is why they are 7-A and not 6-C, because the Earthquake feats got disconsidered for other 7-A feats