Low 1-C neutral space dbs

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Dude, there is more crts about this, it has been accepted already with mountains of evidence, this is derailing. All the universes do have separate timelines. I'm not debating this here. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TheGodOfICE777/Toeiverse_Cosmology_Blog heres another blog.

But nothing here shows that each individual universe has its own seperate timeline. The only mention of timeline is the series is the one that contains all the universes.

This entire crt falls apart if you can’t prove there are individual timelines parallel to each other inside the neutral space.

If all the universes share a timeline then the neutral space is just another tier 2 macrocosm.

It’s not derailment to point that out.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Only came to say I agree with the OP for Topaz's RA

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

There doesn’t seem to be any evidence of separate timelines.

If all the universes are part of the same timeline, then the neutral space is just another macrocosm.

Universes being separate spacetimes has already been accepted, this is just derailing the thread

 

[Reiner04]

A Non-Staff only Tier 1 DB thread. Expected that much in very least. Although, multiverse doesn't mean multiple time axis but rather multiverse has its own time axis that services all of continuums within itself or what we call spacetime continuum. So the point is right, I also said same thing above.

As per our standards, All multiversal structures has several spacetime continuums (4D structures) that are serviced by mere one time axis/timeline by default, it's not Low 1-C. To have more than one time axis in the verse, you need direct statements, not a multiversal structure that has several spacetime serviced by one time axis.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

A Non-Staff only Tier 1 DB thread. Expected that much in very least. Although, multiverse doesn't mean multiple time axis but rather multiverse has its own time axis that services all of continuums within itself or what we call spacetime continuum. So the point is right, I also said same thing above.

With unnecessary derailments we're not going anywhere here, so it would take another crt with a lot of explanation and everyone involved, and a moderator moderating the right topic.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Universes being separate spacetimes has already been accepted, this is just derailing the thread

Notice how you’re not saying separate timelines for each universe have been accepted.

 

[Veronica]

We don't know how large the neutral space is, but it can hold atleast 18 universes. I think we should for more information wether its infinite.

 

[TiltedFN]

We don't know how large the neutral space is, but it can hold atleast 18 universes. I think we should for more information wether its infinite.

already been adressed

 

[TiltedFN]

Notice how you’re not saying separate timelines for each universe have been accepted.

spacetime is the same as timeline, that might be where your confusion lies. See the temporal section on the tiering system FAQ

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Notice how you’re not saying separate timelines for each universe have been accepted.

I am not sure if this is a troll attempt or if you're actually asking for some kind of thread addressing each of the 18 macrocasms, or maybe you're not conversant with what "timelines" are in dragon ball

We don't know how large the neutral space is, but it can hold atleast 18 universes. I think we should for more information wether its infinite.

This has been addressed, it's a 5D realm but unquantifiable by vsbattle standards, thus not significant enough to be tiered until more is known, the timeline that contains it however is low1C

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

spacetime is the same as timeline, that might be where your confusion lies. See the temporal section on the tiering system FAQ

Again I shall repeat myself:

Any tier 2 structure can have subspaces within their own spacetime, hence:

The neutral space can be tier 2 structure with subspaces with their own spacetime, hence another macrocosm.

Without explicitly proving that each universe have their own separate temporal axis, there is no reason to believe the entire timeline (or hypertimeline as people have called it) isn’t just another macrocosm.

It makes no sense to argue that each universe is its own 2-C macrocosm because it contains separate spacetimes and then argue that the neutral space is low 1-C because it contains separate spacetimes.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

It makes no sense to argue that each universe is its own 2-C macrocosm because it contains separate spacetimes and then argue that the neutral space is low 1-C because it contains separate spacetimes.

That’s not what the crt is proposing, it’s saying that the neutral space is 4D as in 4 spacial dimensions with a 5D space time

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That’s not what the crt is proposing, it’s saying that the neutral space is 4D as in 4 spacial dimensions with a 5D space time

It is claiming a 4th dimension of space exists because all the “timelines” are parallel to each other and that timelines cannot be parallel to each inside 3D space.

I am asking for evidence that proves the timelines are parallel and separate from each other and have not been shown any.

You can literally use the same argument to claim each universe is Low 1-C because they contain separate spacetimes that “could not” exist inside 3D space.

 

[TiltedFN]

Dude, read the entire crt, we already agreed that the neutral space would be insignificant 5-D. It has been a thing for months now that the universes are their own 2-C structures each with their own temporal dimensions/timelines, it is like that as default, now I'm bringing forward the temporal dimension of the neutral zone will give it that qualitative superiority, which is still contained under a higher time flow. It has been accepted they are separate already.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Dude, read the entire crt, we already agreed that the neutral space would be insignificant 5-D. It has been a thing for months now that the universes are their own 2-C structures each with their own temporal dimensions/timelines, it is like that as default, now I'm bringing forward the temporal dimension of the neutral zone will give it that qualitative superiority, which is still contained under a higher time flow. It has been accepted they are separate already.

Actually address my arguments jnstead of hiding behind: “its already been accepted”.

The show itself has only depicted a singular timeline containing all of the spaces.

There is no reason to assume that the timeline is a timeline containing multiple timelines. It is possible for all the universes to be subspaces of a singular timeline. You can still gain Low-2C for destroying subspaces of spacetime if they are big enough or contain enough contents.

It does not necessitate the over arching timeline to be Low 1-C.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Actually address my arguments jnstead of hiding behind: “its already been accepted”.

The show itself has only depicted a singular timeline containing all of the spaces.

There is no reason to assume that the timeline is a timeline containing multiple timelines. It is possible for all the universes to be subspaces of a singular timeline. You can still gain Low-2C for destroying subspaces of spacetime if they are big enough or contain enough contents.

It does not necessitate the over arching timeline to be Low 1-C.

If it has already been accepted make a crt to fight it as it's taken for granted.

 

[Stryker861]

Its not a new crt's job to prove something thats already been talked about and accepted in previous ones

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Its not a new crt's job to prove something thats already been talked about and accepted in previous ones

If that were to constantly happen then what's the meaning of crts.

 

[TiltedFN]

Actually address my arguments jnstead of hiding behind: “its already been accepted”.

Because it is true, this has been discussed so many times over the years, you seem to not recognize DB cosmology, this thread is talking about something completely different, and then you come into here talking about accepted topics already, that is literal derailment, its not "hiding behind" anything, there's just no reason to discuss this.

The show itself has only depicted a singular timeline containing all of the spaces.

No it hasn't, the universes themselves are separate each having its own timeline, 6 of them to be exact. The timeline is a higher temporal dimension/time flow of lower timelines.

There is no reason to assume that the timeline is a timeline containing multiple timelines. It is possible for all the universes to be subspaces of a singular timeline. You can still gain Low-2C for destroying subspaces of spacetime if they are big enough or contain enough contents.

Yes there is because its literally accepted that the macrocosms themselves are 2-C structures. This means that each of the universal sized bodies have their own temporal dimensions. Temporal dimensions being uncountably infinite, in terms of the "snapshots". That is what builds tier 2 structures, it has been agreed upon that the neutral space would be an insignificant 5-D space with the temporal dimension of the neutral space granting that qualitative superiority, being a higher time flow that encompasses lower dimensional ones compared to itself. They aren't subspaces of another tier 2 structure, that isn't how it works. You keep saying, "it can be" or "its possible" yet you have no evidence? Why would your interpretation be better than an already universally accepted topic already?

 

[Cass5373]

En realidad, aborde mis argumentos en lugar de esconderse detrás: "ya ha sido aceptado".

El espectáculo en sí solo ha representado una línea de tiempo singular que contiene todos los espacios.

No hay razón para suponer que la línea de tiempo es una línea de tiempo que contiene varias líneas de tiempo. Es posible que todos los universos sean subespacios de una línea de tiempo singular. Todavía puede obtener Low-2C para destruir subespacios del espacio-tiempo si son lo suficientemente grandes o contienen suficiente contenido.

No es necesario que la línea de tiempo general sea Baja 1-C.

Regarding the Separation of Universes

It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes


The most typical example is the presence of a higher dimensional space serving as a separator. In other words, two separate universes coexist in a four dimensional or even higher dimensional space, occupying different position along some additional dimensional axis. Therefore, in order to travel between such universes, the movement must be through the higher dimensional space between them. To summarize, two realms are separated through a higher dimension space if

• A larger space encompasses all the universes or space-times

• This space is of a higher dimensional nature.

While a common higher dimensional space is the most frequent way of separation, many other ways exist and are also valid.

In fiction there are cases where a wall or some non-physical analog separates two realms. However, while such a barrier might serve to separate the realms within the cosmology of said fiction, note that the spaces are not necessarily separate universes by our standards. That is because, while the wall may make it difficult in practice, one could in theory still move from one realm to the other with just regular three dimensional movement. That means that the realms are still part of one common three dimensional space, which by our standards constitutes only one universe.

Note that this criteria of separation is only an argument against two realms being separate universes, if a feat of travel between the realms by regular 3D means occurs or it is otherwise known for certain that they are not separated in the above sense. If the realms fulfill the requirements laid out in the prior section and no such travel occurs, then the realms can be considered proper separate universes even if the means by which they are separated is not explored.

— Firstly, it is significant to understand that a universe, including space-time continuums and timelines, encompasses all three-dimensional space that can be accessed through regular movement within the universe. This means that any location that can be theoretically reached through conventional means of travel, such as spaceflight, would be considered part of the same universe and timeline, regardless of how the fiction portrays it. Movement between universes should only be feasible through extraordinary modes of transportation, such as portals, higher-dimensional movement, or teleportation. By default, it is assumed that universes have separate three-dimensional spaces, but if a piece of fiction demonstrates otherwise, destruction of several connected timelines would be rated as Low 2-C (Universe level+).

Dragon Ball Cosmology
The world where the Kaioushin live, the highest beings among the Kaiou. Its reach is about one tenth of the combined space of the World Beyond and the Living World. Endlessly revolving around the circumference of the World Beyond and the Living World, they watch over the entire world and balance each other. The planet Kaioushin forms the center of the Kaloushin Kingdom. The planet Kaioushin is a lonely planet in the Kaiou Kingdom, and around it are several small suns. The only people in the Kaioushin Kingdom are the Kaioushin and Kibito, who acts as support. All life forms except Kaioushin, and all souls, cannot enter the Kaioushin Realm. The only ways to visit the Kaloushin Kingdom are by borrowing Kibito's power or by going through ShunkanIdou. (Daizenshuu 4, page 73)


The Makai is a unique place within the Living World. It is a place that the eyes of the Kami in the World Beyond cannot see; little is known other than the fact that evil life forms live there. There are records of these life forms threatening peace on the planets of the universe. Ordinary life forms cannot travel freely from the Living World to the World Beyond. The only way to go is to become souls upon death. However, there are some who are given permission to travel by the Kami of the World Beyond, though they are few in number. The Kaioushin Realm, where the Kaioushin, the gods of the [other] gods, reside. To observe both the World Beyond and the Living World, it rotates around the circumference of the entire body of the world in a fixed cycle, like a satellite. Of course, in important circumstances where the fate of the universe is at stake, they sometimes interfere with both the World Beyond and the Living World. Beings from the World Beyond or the World of the Living cannot enter here. Without Shunkanidou's highest level of skill, movement [to and from] is impossible.

Interview with Akira Toriyama in the Full Color edition of the DB manga

What kind of place is the afterlife?

It is the world where the gods live, and it is also called the "Heavenly Realm"! It is a world inhabited by gods like Kaiō and Kaiōshin, as well as the spirits of the dead. Normally, living people cannot enter.

Fusion: Inside Scoop
The secret behind the spherical world Toriyama:
I thought of the world of ball so that it would be easy for both me and the readers to understand. The big central ball has the worlds called the world of the living and the afterlife, and the Kaiōshin oversees all of that from the outside. Like its antithesis, at the bottom of the great ball are the Makaiōshin, who rule over evil. Currently, it seems that the power of the Kaiōshins is superior.

Chapter 493, Dragon Ball manga
Piccolo mentions that Super Buu blasted a hole through the dimensional barrier with his Ki.

Daizenshuu Infinite and expansive space envelops every celestial body that exists in the living world. Together with the "Demon Realm", it is a unique and large world in the living world. In the world of Dragon Ball, the universe lies below the World Beyond and is hermetically sealed by a barrier that is etched with a strange design. Within the universe, there are "nebulae" made up of innumerable stars, and there are "galaxies" made up of innumerable nebulae. There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy. Earth resides in the Solar System, a galactic nebula on the outskirts of the Northern Galaxy.[Par.] A "Cosmic Police Organization" exists in the universe. However, they lack the fighting ability to oppose Frieza and the Saiyans.


Chapter 205, Manga Dragon ball Emma Daioh's guide explains to Goku that if he falls to hell he will never be able to return, he also describes the mortal world as a "universe"

dragon book page 2 Through rigorous training in the Heavenly Realm, Goku has transformed into a Super Saiyan 3. His awesome power, which shook the entire earth, even reached the Kaioshin Realm in another dimension, astonishing his friends! Although it took him a while to transform because he was still getting used to it, he showed enough power to fight Boo on equal terms!

Not to mention, they've also provided you with the threads and other justifications for why each of the 6 kingdoms that make up U7 are Low 2-c.

If you do not agree with how the universal structures in DB are formed, I invite you to make a CRT addressing these issues instead of derailing this thread, thank you very much and I hope your understanding.

 

[TiltedFN]

we don't need another crt, we have the max open right now, and there has been many threads accepting it, and there was a debunk thread not too long ago that was also rejected, theres no reason too, its pointless.

 

[TiltedFN]

6 pages lets stop the side discussions, just keep waiting for staff to address the actual arguments of the crt, I will post the arguments again.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah the neutral space is a 5-D realm for surrounding all the 12 universe, with them being parallel to each other, we were arguing whether it was insignificant 5-D or Low 1-C. And we have been talking about temporal dimensions and the timelines also, i brought forth the point that since the neutral space is its own dimension which was stated in a scan, and said to be its own space, i said it would also have to have its own temporal dimension that overarches the macrocosms and the neutral space itself, so in total it would have to be qualitatively superior, so low 1-C. Which mind you is STILL under a bigger timeline also.

Low 1-C, we have the neutral space which is argued to be insignificant 5-D, and then the temporal dimension of the neutral zone would be qualitatively superior, and then its still contained under a bigger timeline, it can't be less than low 1-C.

Well it's not really an assumption, this "different space from that of the 12 universes" implies that it is a different dimensional space, meaning it would have it's own time, the translator made sure to make that clear with the context that was provided, and i feel like it just makes more sense for it to have its own time anyway. It's compared to the world of void and zeno's realm which are different dimensions, so its kind of a given. So the temporal dimension would be qualitatively superior to the insignificant 5-D neutral space resulting in low 1-C, which is still under a higher time flow.

well, even Ultima said the neutral space is 5D, just it alone is unqualifiable and thus can't be tiered, so the entire bigger timeline is qualifiable and significant enough to be tiered, no reason for timeline to not be 5D at least

Yes, the neutral space is insignificant 5-D, the temporal dimension of the neutral zone would give that qualitative superiority to the entire construct making it 5-D low 1-C, the timeline is also a higher temporal dimension since it contains everything apart of its higher time flow, which is technically 6-D. But i just want to make it clear that the timeline should bare minimum be 5-D.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also I don't think showing pictures of the universes literally being 3-D objects displaced through 3-D space that are literally literally touching each other really works as evidence that they're totally separated by higher-dimensional space)

Let’s not leave this out.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I think this might be an eye opener for some lol

 

[TiltedFN]

Let’s not leave this out.

already was brought up in the OP, they aren't actually touching and visual representations, and don't leave out the fact that he also said its 5-D just unquantifiable, and the part where he said he only read the OP and not any of the other arguments.

 

[TiltedFN]

So, is the argument that a temporal dimension that encompasses a multiversal cosmology (multiple universes with their own respective temporal dimensions) embedded within an unquantifiable, but undeniably 5-D space, is Low 1-C?

I can agree with that, if that's what is being argued.

Though, I'm unsure if I'm missing something, but I haven't seen any evidence of there being this second temporal dimension that is encompassing the whole structure.

The 5-D "space" here can't really be tiered even if it is 5-D as it is most likely just a not-measurable void without anything quantifiable to speak of.

However, if there is in fact a temporal dimension that surrounds neutral space, it would be Low 1-C for having two distinct temporal dimensions on top of an at least infinite 3-D space.

do you have the permission to call more staff?

 

[Veronica]

The staffs aren't willing

 

[StekFence]

Nobody wants to read all this

 

[TiltedFN]

Nobody wants to read all this

yeah that is why I put a link in the OP that directs them to the current arguments.

 

[Quantu]

I've not been following, come back and see the page number increased by a lot lol.

Almost at the point where this should be remade as a staff thread with whatever the apparent new arguments are or closed and never to be mentioned again

 

[TiltedFN]

I've not been following, come back and see the page number increased by a lot lol.

Almost at the point where this should be remade as a staff thread with whatever the apparent new arguments are or closed and never to be mentioned again

dw we pretty much reached a conclusion, just waiting now.

 

[Veronica]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

 

[Omegabronic]

dw we pretty much reached a conclusion, just waiting now.

wdym "conclusion"? we haven't reached anything whatsoever

 

[PrinceofPein]

dw we pretty much reached a conclusion, just waiting now.

Yeah all staff that commented disagreed.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah all staff that commented disagreed.

They commented mid way, claiming they only read the OP, and ultima literally told me to direct him to the current discussion after we already acknowledged it was insignificant 5-D. And I literally talked to deagonx a little bit ago telling him I made it easier for him to respond to the current arguments and he said he would eventually, so stop saying they disagreed, because they did not read all the arguments yet which they even acknowledged. And the people who have been most active in this crt past like 4 pages have mostly agreed with the currently argued arguments, that is why i said we "pretty much reached a conclusion". In the sense that we know what we are arguing now.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Yeah all staff that commented disagreed.

The thread is four pages long already, so, could I receive some directions here? Any post with the new arguments summarized?

I share this sentiment.

Warning: I only read the OP.

So, glancing over this: It doesn't really seem to be anything particularly notable, in the sense that we already assume 4-D spacetimes that exist in parallel are spaced apart across 5-dimensional space. The issue, largely, is whether this 5-dimensional space has anything noteworthy about it to be tiered; it could be a complete void, for instance, and as such have really nothing in it to blow up in the first place.

More than that, it could just not meet our criteria of what a "significantly large" dimensional structure is, and as such be left untiered. Just like we don't instantly grant characters Low 2-C ratings for destroying small spacetimes (Or sections of spacetime). If the space was infinitely large, there'd be something to work with, but if we don't know its size, then, yeah.

And, to my knowledge, I believe we already use the 5-D space reasoning as part of the regular justification for tiers like 2-C and 2-A. It's why the gap between them is treated as "unquantifiable," because, ideally, feats that warrant them involve affecting both the universes and the space between them.

(Also I don't think showing pictures of the universes literally being 3-D objects displaced through 3-D space that are literally literally touching each other really works as evidence that they're totally separated by higher-dimensional space)

Anything prior to this was in reference to old arguments made on a past thread. There is, to make it abundantly clear, NO STAFF DISAGREEMENT TO WHAT THE OP IS CURRENTLY ARGUING

 

[PrinceofPein]

If the OP is in fact no longer arguing the OP, then make a new thread, no one is reading through this

 

[Quantu]

If the OP is in fact no longer arguing the OP, then make a new thread, no one is reading through this

I actually second this, not only have threads been locked and remade before due to waffle + large size on their previous versions, but apparently there are new arguments too. Hell maybe even staff only, so that more staff can get involved and not get thrown off by the potential of a 6 page back and forth, summary or not

But it's up to OP at the end of the day

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This has reached 5 pages long and barely anything of note has happened because of members spamming messages that do not add anything. It makes it very hard for staff and other knowledgeable members to navigate through the posts that do mean something.

It is getting to the point that this may to be remade as a staff-only thread.

I am surprised no discussion moderators have made the effort to clean things up.

So, is the argument that a temporal dimension that encompasses a multiversal cosmology (multiple universes with their own respective temporal dimensions) embedded within an unquantifiable, but undeniably 5-D space, is Low 1-C?

I can agree with that, if that's what is being argued.

Though, I'm unsure if I'm missing something, but I haven't seen any evidence of there being this second temporal dimension that is encompassing the whole structure.

The 5-D "space" here can't really be tiered even if it is 5-D as it is most likely just a not-measurable void without anything quantifiable to speak of.

However, if there is in fact a temporal dimension that surrounds neutral space, it would be Low 1-C for having two distinct temporal dimensions on top of an at least infinite 3-D space.

It looks like we have an agreement, but this can't go forward here, due to having too many pages and it was said to make a crt in the team members tab ( so that all team members could read)