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Low 1-A for Manifold

Threemagi

He/Him
486
97
continuing my Low 1-A thread train....

shamelessly copied from this blog :

Endless Hierarchies Above Manifold of Manifolds

"A manifold of manifolds."
"And that's why there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which—"

Mane held up her hands.
Endless hierarchies of life and mind. Which means, even if it just contains infinite dimensional multiverse (as opposed to its true nature of being able to contain all logically possible multiverse which would include Outerverses) it'd still mean there's infinite hierarchies above infinite dimensions.

Taking Manifold's nature into equation, meaning each Manifold already contains all logically possibly multiverses. And that Manifold is just one thread of collection of infinite Manifolds (collections of collections of multiverses) which have infinite hierarchies above them.

Each hierarchy itself possibly have infinite recursions. And there are infinite amount of hierarchies even if you already transcended one hierachy.

Manifold of Manifolds

"Of course," Babo said, "She may actually be an expression of the manifold itself — or perhaps the manifold itself, the greater structure of reality strands, is itself self-referential, in some sense conscious. Or maybe the manifold is just one thread in a greater tapestry - "
"A manifold of manifolds."
A Manifold (collection of universes) might be one thread to great tapestry of Manifold of Manifolds. A literal drop in an ocean. That's how vast Manifold of Manifolds is.

Manifold : Collection of Infinite Universes

Anna danced, whirled, her dress lifting; and Maura is comfortably aware of the soldier's eyes. "There are infinite number of possible universes in the manifold," Anna said. "Of those only a subset - nevertheless infinite itself - are capable of supporting self-aware substructures. And those universes are characterized by a flow of time, which is created by unfolding cosmic structure. Gravity is the key. "
A subset within a Manifold is infinite in itself.

"We don't know how they do it. But they changed the rules, "Nemoto said.
Emma said hesitantly, "So they found a way to create a lot more universes."

Manekato said, "We believe the Old Ones created, not just a multiplicity of daughter universes, but an infinite number ." The bulky Daemon studied Emma's face, seeking understanding.

"Infinity is significant, you see," Nemoto said, too rapidly. "There is, umm, a qualitative difference between a large number, however large, and infinity. In the infinite manifold, in that infinite ensemble, all logically possible universes must exist. And therefore all logically possible destinies must unfold. Everything that is possible will happen, somewhere out there. They are created a grand stage, you see, Emma: a stage for endless possibilities of life and mind. " .
Again, a Manifold contains infinite universes. All logically possible universes must exist. Supporting statement to the 'Essence of Manifold' part that 'as long as its logically possible, it must exist'.

Misc.

Most Primal Source of Manifold : Essence or Underlying of Manifold
How is Manifold created? Is it purely physical Multiverse? Does it have any metaphysical component that's superior to physical multiverse? Well, yes, Manifold is governed by deeper source than physical laws. Namely, mathematics and logic, both are underlyings of reality on Manifoldverse.

"Cassiopeia had spent time trying to teach him about a phenomenon just a little beyond his own horizon — as chaos theory might have been to an engineer of, say, the 1950s. It was something to do with the emergence of complexity. The Gaijin seemed able to see how complexity, even life, naturally emerged from the simplest of beginnings: not fundamental physical laws, but something even deeper than that — as far as he could make out, the essential mathematical logic that underlay all things.
Its here explicitly said that complexity itself did not originate or created from most fundamental of physical laws. But all is originating from even deeper and more primal source, that is mathematical logic that underlay all things.

Human scientists had a glimmering of this. His own DNA somehow contained, in its few billion bases, enough information to generate a brain of three trillion connections… But for the Gaijin this principle went farther. It was like being given a table of prime numbers and being able to deduce atoms and stars and people as a necessary consequence of the existence of the primes. And since prime numbers, of course, existed everywhere, it followed there was life and people, humans and Gaijin, everywhere there could be. Life sprouting everywhere, like weeds in the cracks of a pavement. It was a remarkable, chilling thought.
An example : how the existence of one mathematical structure caused the existence of physical structures like stars. And since said mathematical structure existed everywhere, (all over Manifoldverse) so can complexity like Life exist all over the Manifold of Manifolds because it would be consequence of mathematical strucures which presided it.

In other words, mathematical concepts take the role of 'base', or probably 'Archetype'. Everything is based on them. Physical existences rely on them but mathematical concepts don't rely on physical existences.

For example : Theory of Everything regarding Hilbert Space is 'Archetype' (governing concept) of infinite dimensional multiverse. Any non-contradictive descriptions of any kind of Outerverses are 'Archetypes' (governing concept) of Outerverses in question.

Anna's face worked. "They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold."
Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?"

"Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics." Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?"

Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled.

"But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists."
But other logical mathematical concepts, which covers any multiverse theory invented by man should be able to be covered by a Manifold.

My proposal
As usual. Low 1-A upgrade for anyone that scales to the cosmology.
 
Thank you for helping out.

You should ask Ultima Reality, DontTalkDT, Aeyu, and FanofRPGs to comment here.
 
These statements are pretty clearly referring to the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (A Type IV Multiverse), which is sorta tricky to tier because you could either say it's somewhere into 1-A or highball it to the death using the statements about all logically consistent mathematical structures physically existing as Universes in the ensemble.

I'd rather do the former, myself, though the statement regarding there being an infinite hierarchy of Manifolds is interesting, is there any more context to it?
 
Thank you for helping out.
 
I'd say "At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A" is good for them based on the scans. The Goddess could be higher if more context to the "hierarchy of Manifolds" thing appears.
 
Okay. That is probably fine then.
 
I should note that Stephen Baxter has used uncountable infinites in his stories before, so Low 1-A wouldn't be very surprising. I agree
 
So is somebody experienced and well-informed willing to handle the edits?
 
Ok, I got Aeyu's and Ultima's inputs on discord; Here was what they look to agree to: So, for this:

"Anna's face worked. "They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold." Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?" "Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics." Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?" Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled. "But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists.""
The rating could be At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A, possibly High 1-A. This text looks above to support multi-formalism where each universe in the manifold is a formal system according to this all systems within logical consistency. Multi-formalism is kinda 1-A and multiple systems of mathematics sounds like some High 1-A stuff, to Ultima and Aeyu.

Rating
Aeyu suggested:

  • At least Low 1-A ( size of the manifold described, safest thing we can confirm), likely 1-A (bc multi-formal), possibly High 1-A (bc multi math foundations) that way we can have low/mid/high
  • there is also this Option:
At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A, possibly far higher if that is more comfortable

Personally on the rating, the first option works better for me
 
I understand Low 1-A, but am very uncertain about High 1-A. We would need extremely good justifications for that. Further elaborations/explanations would be appreciated.
 
@Antvasima Y're welcome

@Ultima Reality Thank you for your opinion.

About further context : Idk. Its just said on the tin, Manifold of Manifolds continue to infinity?

@ZacharyGrossman273 I think we should make separate thread for that? Not sure where do you get High 1-B from though.

@Elizhaa Thank you for helping out.

@Doctor 129 Seems so? There seems to be Ultimate manifold thing which might refer to infinite hierachy of manifold of manifolds rolled into one being called 'Goddess of Manifold'.

@Antvasima High 1-A is just Manifold nature taken to most logical conclusion.

But its just that : highball.

Pretty sure we don't use 'higball' here.

Context I can find is just : Ultimate manifold thing, which obviously refers to totality of manifolds.


Summary

  • My personal opinion : Pre-Key should stay High 1-C
  • Consensus for Post-Key is : At least Low 1-A, Likely 1-A,

High 1-A is still contested. So what if we take the middle ground?

At least Low 1-A, Likely 1-A, Possibly 1-A+?
 
Can somebody help in writing up explanation to revise AP?

At least Low 1-A, Likely 1-A :

Attack Potency : At least Low Outerverse level (manifoldverse consists of manifold of manifolds with no end to the increasing hierarchy) Likely Outerverse level (all logically consistent multiple systems of mathematical structures physically exist as Universes in the manifold)
 
I actually think "At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A, possibly far higher" is a good alternative, given the descriptions are a bit too vague to derive a solid tier for them. Although I don't think I am knowledgeable enough on the verse to help write the justification on the profiles.
 
Ultima's suggestion might work. I still do not really properly understand the reasons for 1-A or higher though, so better explanations would be appreciated.
 
Antvasima said:
Ultima's suggestion might work. I still do not really properly understand the reasons for 1-A or higher though, so better explanations would be appreciated.
I... honestly don't get it myself. (This thread is getting out of hand lol)

But ehm, I'll explain it to best of my ability :

in this kind of multiverse, 'outerverse' or 'outerversal being' would only be small part of the multiverse.

because all mathematically logical things must exist in the manifold.

all forms of logic too, must exist. only explicitly illogical things that cannot be explained by mathematical formalism, that cannot exist here : for example : a Tier 0 that is explicitly Boundless, beyond anything, even logic.


@Ultima Reality I think you'd be more qualified to explain this 1-A stuffs.

Also, I think in the History on Downstreamers page, they actually have 1-A like explanation :

Created and transcended an 'ultimate reality' which contains the crux of all logical mathematics, their entities, and logical concepts. The Downstreamers' capability, which includes the effortless manipulation of the fabric of existence, is nearly boundless, and they are capable of creating infinitely-layered multiverses that contain an equally infinite number of multiverses within them. The Manifoldverse itself consists of an infinite number of infinite multiverses, encompassing all forms of mathematics. The Downstreamers themselves exist at the top of this endless hierarchy, far beyond the applications of normal space and time, and are able to comprehend a type of "ultimate manifold" that that encompasses all other manifolds in the tapestry of existence.
 
it seems like no one especially staff here have really read this book´╝ƒ

Antvasima´╝îi have a suggestion

should we handle these verses which have the potential to transcend 1a more carefully´╝î just like tenchi muyou verse´╝îwhy not ask a staff to read the book´╝îthen judge´╝ƒ

if my remember is right´╝îany verse which have the potential to transcend 1a have staff support who understand the verse well
 
@ZacharyGrossman273 We should just scrap H1-C rating then. Leaving it only 3-A?

Goddess embodies manifoldverse, so... if manifoldverse scales to [Insert tier here], then goddess would be [Insert tier here] too.


@Doctor 129 We don't have staff supporter for the verse I think. so I think we should just stick 'possibly far higher' on the profile instead of sticking 'High 1-A' on it.

But if you want more info, I found another this another blog from that Lucis-the-lumenian user which contains supporting statement to manifold containing outerverse... maybe :

We are outside the Primum Mobile: beyond duration, beyond the structure of space. Dante understood this place. "There near and far neither add nor subtract…"
There are no concepts of 'far' or 'near'. Probably meant that distance is irrelevant. You cannot measure anything in here.

There are no concepts of 'add' and 'substract'. Its beyond mathematics, probably?

Any attempt of describing/measuring this 'Empyrean' (abode of God) using physics is meaningless
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
No, pRe ascension should be 2-C at minimum
You're probably right. It does say... thousand universes?

Well, it will screw with wins/losses, though.

So, do you agree on 2-C?
 
I do not think that it is realistic to ask the staff to read long complicated books just to review content revision threads.
 
Just to give summary here :

As ZacharyGrossman273's suggestion : Pre Key (currently H1-C) would be downgraded to 2-C. Because M-theory being H1-C is not a thing anymore.

For 1-A rating, there are two options :

- we can use Ultima Reality's : At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A, possibly far higher

or

- we can use Elizhaa's : At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A, possibly High 1-A


Pre Key | Post Key

Tier : 2-C (for affecting 1000 universes) | At least Low 1-A (based on sheer size of manifold), Likely 1-A (based on statement in manifold short story : beyond structure of time, space and physics), Possibly far higher/High 1-A (based on manifold encompassing all forms of mathematics and formalism)


Now is there any objections? Should we go for Possibly far higher? or Possibly High 1-A? Personally I'm fine with either, they both have same justification.


@Zachary already volunteered to do the edit, I can do it too. If we're allowed to make the change right away to the charas.

So....
 
I think that all we seem to have solid proof of is "At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A", not anything further.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that all we seem to have solid proof of is "At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A", not anything further.
I'm not pushing for 'far higher' here, but to help you see where it is coming from :

manifold encompasses all forms of mathematics. so it contains all cardinalities, from aleph-1, to aleph-3 and possibly above.

a post from @Nepuko Roughly :

-Aleph-1 (from our perspective) for the "Pseudo-Outerversal Tier". (Low 1-B / High 1-B / High 1-B)

-Aleph-2 for the Baseline Outerversal till any finite number of transcendences. (1-B / Low 1-A / Low 1-A = Measurable [Finite])

-Aleph-omega and above for Infinitely transcending. (High 1-B / 1-A / Low 1-A+ = Measurable [Infinite])

-Teta (and above I guess) for being above Outerversal Hierarchy. (1-A / High 1-A / 1-A = Immeasurable)


But If you disagree then I'd note it to only 1-A if I were to do the edit.

I'll come here if you're ready to unlock the pages : The Goddess of The Manifold , Downstreamers
 
I thought that our new revisions ensured that stacking infinite numbers could only reach Low 1-A at best, or at least that is how it was explained to me as far as I am aware.
 
Antvasima said:
I thought that our new revisions ensured that stacking infinite numbers could only reach Low 1-A at best, or at least that is how it was explained to me as far as I am aware.
It was stacking omegas, like high 1-B is omega^omega^omega^omega^omega...

Alephs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
 
@Antvasima What @FanofRPGs said.

But IMO, to prevent any headache, I'd just scrap 'far higher' rating entirely. leaving only 'Low 1-A' and '1-A'.

@Ultima and @Elizhaa haven't come in this thread anyway.


@ZacharyGrossman273 It doesn't have official image I believe. I think we have no choice but to leave it imageless?
 
I am very uncomfortable with allowing even infinities raised by absolutely uncountable infinities to reach higher than Low 1-A.
 
I am fine with compromising on leaving the rating as At least Low 1-A, likely 1-A
 
@Elizhaa Can you help explaining to Antvasima about 1-A thing? Mathematical formalism isn't my forte.

Antvasima said:
I am very uncomfortable with allowing even infinities raised by absolutely uncountable infinities to reach higher than Low 1-A.
1-A rating can be justified with different thing entirely though :

We are outside the Primum Mobile: beyond duration, beyond the structure of space. Dante understood this place. "There near and far neither add nor subtract…"
There are no concepts of 'far' or 'near'. Probably meant that distance is irrelevant. You cannot measure anything in here.

There are no concepts of 'add' and 'substract'. Its beyond mathematics, probably?

Any attempt of describing/measuring this 'Empyrean' (abode of God) using physics is meaningless
 
Threemagi said:
@Elizhaa Can you help explaining to Antvasima about 1-A thing? Mathematical formalism isn't my forte.
I am not well-verse but from the many quotes that were mentioned here show the verse would be Low 1-A; So, I think from this the mathematical formalism holds that everything like every universes that can be described mathematical which mean they must exist despite on how arbitrary or meaningless. Hence, the Gods Tier transcending this system would be possibly given a Tier 1-A
 
@Elizhaa Thank you for the explanation.

@Antvasima What do you think?

I don't really mind if you only agree to Low 1-A in the end though. That's the beginning pointbof the thread

But maybe we should wait for Zach here to do the edit.
 
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