LOTM Speed Revisions Part 1

[LOTM_Historian]

We've been neglecting the speed scaling of Lord of the Mysteries (LOTM) characters on VSBW for quite some time. This thread aims to address that by improving their speed tiers, starting with the most obvious cases.

Here is the blog:

LOTM Speed revisions Part 1

vsbattles.fandom.com

Summary:

Spoiler: Speed Scaling

• Speed tiers for Angels, Gods, and Great Old Ones
  • Immeasurable Attack speed for Great Old Ones
  • Infinite / Immeasurable Speed within the Spirit World for all 3
  • Infinite Attack speed for all 3.
  • MFTL+ attack speed in the Material World for Great Old Ones, with potential MFTL+ perception speed for all 3
  • At least SOL travel speed in the Material world for all 3

This will change the speed scaling for the following profiles:

Spoiler: profiles

Great Old Ones:

• Klein

Gods:

• Amon

Angels:

• Audrey
• Alger
• Derrick
• Fors
• Emlyn
• Cattleya
• Leonard
• Xio
• Ouroboros
• Medici

Agrees:

Theglassman (agrees with everything except immeasurable speed),

DDM (Agrees with everything)

ActuallySpaceMan42 (Agrees with everything)

Elizhaa (Agrees with everything)

 

[Super_Nova]

Ofc, I pretty much agree.

 

[MrTayman616]

I agree with many of them, have a few question for some of them.

I believe Ludwig's case should at least include reaction speed (if he's able to catch it).

Traveling to the space above the Gray Fog, Even though there is seemingly infinite distance, do they move physically or at least in a way that requires speed?

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I agree with many of them, has a few question for few of them.

I believe Ludwig's case should at least include reaction speed (if he's able to catch it).

I don’t know exactly how he caught it which is why I refrained from giving them reaction speed. But yes, if that is fine with the admins, I’ll all up for giving angels and higher MFTL+ reaction speeds.

Traveling to the space above the Gray Fog, Even though there is seemingly infinite distance, do they move physically or at least in a way that requires speed?

Normally, every human’s Astral Projection is always wandering the spirit world and that is what travels up to infinity.

However, when a character becomes an Angel, their physical body, soul / Astral Projection merge into one unified existence. As a result, ascending up to the space above the gray fog within the spirit world directly affects their real body, their real body traverses the infinite distance. Such as Amon when he tried to break into sefirah castle.

Edit: I’m currently not home so I’ll respond to other stuff when I get back

 

[ZemmCayenne]

Agree.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Looks good.

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

I Agree with all of them. And possibly MFTL reaction speed for angels due to Ludwig catching Box of GOOs.

 

[Rez]

Bump

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

BUMP

 

[Theglassman12]

Not exactly sure what the immeasurable speed is there, infinite speed I’m a bit neutral on. The rest looks fine

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Not exactly sure what the immeasurable speed is there, infinite speed I’m a bit neutral on. The rest looks fine

The attack's speed is immeasurable, as it spread and encompassed an entire 1-A realm. The infinite speed feats seem quite clear to me, especially given the scans explicitly state phrases like "descending from an infinite height" and "approached the infinitely high gray fog." Furthermore, we recently just found another infinite attack speed feat via the spear of Longinus: https://gyazo.com/367d979e9267736ce26b6153e6da4256

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m not sure if crossing a 1-A realm would qualify, pretty sure your existence would need to be on a 1-A level (unless I’m misreading what’s being said here). The infinite speed looks ok with the Longinus but is there a specific scan that mentions they cross the entire realm? That can help.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I’m not sure if crossing a 1-A realm would qualify, pretty sure your existence would need to be on a 1-A level (unless I’m misreading what’s being said here).

It's immeasurable because the attack is encompassing the entirety of the 1-A realm. That's pretty clearly immeasurable.

 

[Theglassman12]

Does that count for immeasurable? I don’t recall that being a thing.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Does that count for immeasurable? I don’t recall that being a thing.

it does cuz it's crossing an entire realm that essentially transcends all conventional physical measurement

 

[Theglassman12]

Isn’t that a case of the realm doing the immeasurable and not the characters doing it? Last time I checked the characters themselves need to transcend into that 1-A level or need to move through time with their speed for that to count.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Isn’t that a case of the realm doing the immeasurable and not the characters doing it? Last time I checked the characters themselves need to transcend into that 1-A level or need to move through time with their speed for that to count.

Dunno why it would be the realm doing it first rather than the persons capability. It also makes sense when these characters are given powers to do this stuff through a 1-A source. It would just be the attack/speed of it transcending into 1-A level.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I’m not sure if crossing a 1-A realm would qualify, pretty sure your existence would need to be on a 1-A level (unless I’m misreading what’s being said here).

I was under the impression that if an attack spreads and encompasses an entire 1-A realm, it would qualify as having immeasurable speed. Especially in this case since Great Old Ones in LOTM are already rated to have 1-A AP and hax.

The infinite speed looks ok with the Longinus but is there a specific scan that mentions they cross the entire realm? That can help.

I don’t believe there’s a scan of the Spear of Longinus crossing an entire realm (The attack is described as passing through an infinite number of doors, which I believe should be sufficient), but for the Spirit World feats, there are eight scans referencing the space above the gray fog being infinitely high or at an infinite distance (I can likely find more). Additionally, there are six scans of individuals traveling to the space above the gray fog. These include instances like Amon ‘leaping’ toward it, while others simply describe individuals descending/ascending to it through statements like ‘descending from infinite heights’ or ‘approached the infinitely high gray fog.’ Furthermore, we see feats such as Klein pulling astral projections wandering the Spirit World up to the space above the gray fog, which, as established earlier, is clearly at an infinite height.

 

[Theglassman12]

@BestMGQScalerEver because the realm itself is what transcends all forms of time and space and not the characters and their attacks. That’s what led to a lot of franchises who originally had immeasurable speeds get nuked because a good chunk of them relied on a realm that’s beyond time and space.

@LOTM_Historian if it’s pretty explicit on them leaping through then yeah I can see infinite speed.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I’m not sure if crossing a 1-A realm would qualify

Crossing would qualify as the realm transcend the concept of dimensions. Infinite Speed cannot cross a 1-A realm because it is still influenced by dimensions (which is why High 1-B to Low 1-A characters have Infinite Speed by default).

 

[Theglassman12]

Can you show me where that’s accepted as the standards? Because I’m only aware of transcending into a 1-A state of being is by default immeasurable speed, not crossing a realm that’s 1-A in nature.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Can you show me where that’s accepted as the standards? Because I’m only aware of transcending into a 1-A state of being is by default immeasurable speed, not crossing a realm that’s 1-A in nature.

It's not a question of standard. Just as to cross an entire 3-D universe in a short time requires MFTL+ Speed, to cross a 1-A realm in a short time also requires Immeasurable Speed because Infinite Speed cannot do it. Infinite Speed requires an "extension" of dimensions, and in doing so it cannot travel a 1-A realm which transcends the concept of dimensions.

Edit: A clear fact is that a MFTL+ Speed cannot travel an infinite distance, it takes an Infinite Speed to do so. Now the 1-A realm transcends the concept of dimensions, just trivializing distances and all its possible extensions. An Infinite Speed in this case will reach its limits. Thus, it would take an Immeasurable Speed to travel a 1-A realm.

 

[Theglassman12]

That doesn’t answer my question on where crossing a 1-A realm is considered the standard on this site.

 

[Rez]

That doesn’t answer my question on where crossing a 1-A realm is considered the standard on this site.

I think arguments for immeasurable speed is more so related to the fact that their attacks can encompass the entirety of astral world rather than just the fact that they can just cross.
As for how it's considered immeasurable by sites standard, I am not really knowledgeable on that so not gonna make any comments

 

[Theglassman12]

I’d prefer someone more knowledgeable on the 1-A and immeasurable standards to elaborate how that would constitute for said rating, cause this is news to me.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I’d prefer someone more knowledgeable on the 1-A and immeasurable standards to elaborate how that would constitute for said rating, cause this is news to me.

Would it be possible for you to ping some members who are more knowledgeable about the 1-A and immeasurable standards? I am not sure of the standards either.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality any input on this thread would be appreciated.

@LOTM_Historian Don’t expect Ultima to respond anytime soon, he’ll take a while.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not really see how this is Immeasurable speed, but the other stuff look good.

 

[Phoenks]

Immeasurable speed is solid.

Crossing 1-A, is, in fact, a form of immeasurable speed (more accurately it would be a level of speed that's actually beyond that level, but we won't get there until Ultima actually gets back to business)

Definitionally, a 1-A realm exceeds the composition of space-time that lower layers are bound by. In terms of size, temporal dimensions (what we currently use to measure the depth of immeasurable speed) are completely nonexistent in comparison to the scope of 1-A stuff.

And so, in the same way that you can't stack any amount of spatial/temporal layers up to reach 1-A, being able to cross a 1-A space would be unreachable by any lower level of distance-cross/speed/etc.

Consequentially, a 1-A "distance" is literally inaccessible to any form of movement or transcendence across lower realms. Space-time is practically irrelevant with regard to that level of existence. It's not even just "immeasurable," it would be something higher.

But immeasurable should be sufficient for now. Very blatantly so.

Apologies if my explanation is confusing.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Immeasurable speed is solid.

Crossing 1-A, is, in fact, a form of immeasurable speed (more accurately it would be a level of speed that's actually beyond that level, but we won't get there until Ultima actually gets back to business)

Definitionally, a 1-A realm exceeds the composition of space-time that lower layers are bound by. In terms of size, temporal dimensions (what we currently use to measure the depth of immeasurable speed) are completely nonexistent in comparison to the scope of 1-A stuff.

And so, in the same way that you can't stack any amount of spatial/temporal layers up to reach 1-A, being able to cross a 1-A space would be unreachable by any lower level of distance-cross/speed/etc.

Consequentially, a 1-A "distance" is literally inaccessible to any form of movement or transcendence across lower realms. Space-time is practically irrelevant with regard to that level of existence. It's not even just "immeasurable," it would be something higher.

But immeasurable should be sufficient for now. Very blatantly so.

Apologies if my explanation is confusing.

I was under the same impression as you regarding this qualifying as immeasurable attack speed. However, with two admins disagreeing on immeasurable but agreeing on everything else, should we move forward with infinite speed for now? That part should be accepted because of two admin approvals right?:

I do not really see how this is Immeasurable speed, but the other stuff look good.

@BestMGQScalerEver because the realm itself is what transcends all forms of time and space and not the characters and their attacks. That’s what led to a lot of franchises who originally had immeasurable speeds get nuked because a good chunk of them relied on a realm that’s beyond time and space.

@LOTM_Historian if it’s pretty explicit on them leaping through then yeah I can see infinite speed.

 

[Phoenks]

I am very certain that the two admins are incorrect on that, so I think you should wait for others.

Edit: I misread. If you are asking if you can apply the other changes, that's probably fine. I'm not sure if Infinite speed requires more staff.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I am very certain that the two admins are incorrect on that, so I think you should wait for others.

Alright, I trust you. I do find it odd that attacks from characters with 1-A AP, which spread to encompass an entire 1-A realm, wouldn’t be considered immeasurable. Because sure the characters existences aren't 1-A but their attacks are.

Edit: I misread. If you are asking if you can apply the other changes, that's probably fine. I'm not sure if Infinite speed requires more staff.

I was planning to settle for infinite speed and wrap this up, but since you're advising me to wait for others, so I will probably wait a little longer to see if we get more help.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This would be Immeasurable, but not because it's a 1-A-sized Realm. The Spirit Realm, which should be encompassed by the Astral World if I remember correctly, and the Astral World has all of history, past, present, and future stacked ontop of one another.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

This would be Immeasurable, but not because it's a 1-A-sized Realm.

Phoenix asked Ultima on Discord about this, and Ultima stated that the attack should be at immeasurable speed. However, I'm a bit confused because some people agree while others disagree.

The Spirit Realm, which should be encompassed by the Astral World if I remember correctly, and the Astral World has all of history, past, present, and future stacked ontop of one another.

The Spirit World is the realm where the past, present, and future are stacked on top of one another, not the Astral World. The Spirit World is omnipresent, encompassing, and overlapping the material world while also extending beyond. However, I hadn’t considered this before, would this mean that people crossing the entire Spirit World are immeasurable speed?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Phoenix asked Ultima on Discord about this, and Ultima stated that the attack should be at immeasurable speed. However, I'm a bit confused because some people agree while others disagree.

Wrong screenshot? Because that's not what that message says.

The Spirit World is the realm where the past, present, and future are stacked on top of one another, not the Astral World. The Spirit World is omnipresent, encompassing, and overlapping the material world while also extending beyond. However, I hadn’t considered this before, would this mean that people crossing the entire Spirit World are immeasurable speed?

Yes.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Wrong screenshot? Because that's not what that message says.

Oh wait, I just realized this screenshot refers to AP, not speed. I thought Phoenix discussed the speed with Ultima, not AP. My bad, I should have read it more carefully.

Yes.

Alright, I'll update the CRT and set the spirit world movement to immeasurable speed. Appreciate you noticing that.

 

[Phoenks]

Wrong screenshot? Because that's not what that message says.

A 1-A "state of existence" means it is defaulted to Immeasurable speed. On top of what I've already said, anyway.

Ultima knows the context of this thread, as well.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

A 1-A "state of existence" means it is defaulted to Immeasurable speed. On top of what I've already said, anyway.

Oh, I see. We should probably have that listed somewhere since it's word of mouth atm.

 

[Phoenks]

Oh, I see. We should probably have that listed somewhere since it's word of mouth atm.

I am pretty sure the characters get their powers from an accepted 1-A, BDE2 source as well. But the speed was just never updated.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I am pretty sure the characters get their powers from an accepted 1-A, BDE2 source as well. But the speed was just never updated.

Indeed, Great Old One attacks are already classified as 1-A, and here is the thread for it. Their speed just hasn't been updated in a very very long time.