Lord Revelation vs Atropus

[Qawsedf234]

Not everyone in D&D can naturally bypass magic defenses. Like random peasant #46672 or that level 2 fighter who guards a small village won't have anything to get past a werewolf. But higher level people (like say Hercules) will possess heavy duty weapons that can punch through the abstractness of the enemy or monsters with similar resistances can bypass stuff of equal or lower level (i.e. a Pitfiend could bite a Vampire and do damage but the reverse wouldn't be true).

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, purely physical stuff is shown to not affect them at all?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Depends. AD&D, OD&D, and BD&D they were just outright immune to damage if it could not breech their inherit magic durability. 3e and 5e go more with a "Can naturally nullify x amount of damage unless it bypasses a certain immunity". Like in AD&D a Balor would be immune to any weapon that was not rated at +3 or better, but in 3e a Balor nullifies 15 points of damage unless it comes from "cold iron" or "good" type weapons.

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, all magical defenses and attacks are abstract stuff there?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not abstract but capable of affecting abstracts and comes from an abstract source (be it Mystra or Serpent or someone higher depending on which level you're talking about".

 

[InfiniteSped]

Well, Rev can affect abstract things (Natural Law/Laws of reality), his attacks come from the understanding of his Dao (a concept/abstract thing), and his Domain carries the power of said Dao. So, he should be able to hit them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Law Manip isn't the same as NPI towards abstracts though. Hell, the Dark Souls protag can affect the laws of reality, I wouldn't auto-assume he can affect a purely abstract creature.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also can I like get scans and stuff on that whole "My attacks are abstract because my dao is abstract" thing

 

[InfiniteSped]

Laws of reality are abstract things, I'm pretty sure.

The attacks are "abstract" because they affect abstract things, similar to the magical weapons that affect the Atropals anyway, apparently.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes and I theoretically have a concept, that does not inherently mean that affecting me allows affecting concepts.

This same line of reasoning means that everything in D&D is 5-D because it is made by a 5-D creature. So no. You'd still need a specific feat of interacting with an abstract, a la Dr. Gii.

 

[InfiniteSped]

He's affecting the laws themselves, people supposedly having concepts has nothing to do with this.

Uh, no? That's not what I was saying at all. Rev can affect laws, laws are abstract, you need to affect abstracts to hurt the Atropals, so he can hurt them. It has nothing to do with who created them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

But it does. That's still a big reach in terms of wiki capability. Reality warping similarly does not automatically have abstract existence interaction, Law Manip as you describe it is just a branch of Reality Warping.

So forgive me if I disagree inherently with what you're saying about "he can change laws so he can affect abstract representations of concepts".