Lord Revelation vs Atropus

[InfiniteSped]

My problem was that the quote on the profile doesn't say that he can't die until it's empty, just that he will die when it's empty, which is not the same. There's also the issue of his soul being targeted along with his body, which the negative energy will have to be able to regen as well.

I already showed the Area defence and the AoE he can pull with very simple attacks. His main move is a giant hand the size of a small planet, so he'll be hitting the undead as well when he hits Atropus, so those shouldn't be an issue, unless the fight drags for very long.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Effectively? Yes it is. Atropus is suicidal and undead. The quote's main purpose is to prove that he is indeed attached directly to the fuel source which allows Undead to reform. And, again, lesser fuel sources have done more in the past.

I mean. Cool? But that doesn't mean he will absolutely hit every undead, some of which have range as well. Unless he's smacking himself around I guess. And, from what I can tell, the fight will drag on. For a very, very long time.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Really doesn't seem like it. Saying "I will die of old age when I'm 100 years old" doesn't mean "I literally can't die until I get that old" (unless there's some fate stuff involved). The fact that he'll die when the power source runs out doesn't mean that nothing can kill him before that happens.

Again, can it heal his soul? You said that some spells could do it, but that the negative energy wouldn't cast the spells, so how is it going to bring his soul back if its destroyed? Has it shown the ability to bring back destroyed souls?

I mean, there's nothing stopping him from just destroying the whole planet as he fights Atropus, while he just flies into space out of the Atropal's range, they don't seem to have flight according to the profile.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's... still not the point. I just explained the point to you. Much like other Undead, Atropus is unable to die because of Negative Energy. Unlike other Undead, Atropus is linked to the multiversal supply of it.

It should be able to, yes, because, if you read what I've said, I've said this many times. Weaker sources have done so.

Depends on the Undead. Atropals might not. Conversely, wouldn't that kill Lord Revelation, what with him not having Self-Sustenance? Like flight in space can be done by putting force in the other direction, but Self-Sustenance sorta is required, which all Undead have by default.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, again, Atropus resists soul hax so I'm not sure why this line of reasoning is even relevant.

 

[InfiniteSped]

You said that weaker sources can cast Wish and Miracle, but that the negative plane won't cast those spells. How will it bring the soul back, then? Those seem like pretty specific spells that alter reality itself to do what the caster wants, just being more powerful shouldn't mean it can actually bring the soul back, unless it has been shown to actually be able to reform a destroyed soul.

Rev doesn't need to breath, and he can survive in space (irl space, at least). He can sustain himself with just the energy of Heaven and Earth (who knows if our Earth and space would have those), or via pills, that all cultivators carry around by default. Staying in space shouldn't be different than staying on Earth for him.

Revelation has soul attacks that can kill people with great soul resistance as well, and can kill 5-C souls, since souls in his verse can physically affect the world and fight normally. It all depends on how good the resistance is, or how powerful the soul has been shown to be. You showed Father Llymic, who has very good madness and cold manip, but his soul stuff seems pretty limited, the quotes used on his profile saying that he has to actually hit someone with his weapons to affect their souls.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Negative Energy Plane doesn't, or can't really, heal souls. It's the antithesis of the Positive Energy Plane, which is what creates souls and life itself. What it does is empower undead beings with Negative Energy, which replaces the soul and what is used to drain the life force of living beings.

Also while I do agree that Atropus should be powerful enough to remake itself if destroyed, I don't know how long that would take or if Atropus would even come back at full strength.

For soul resistance what exactly is he scaling from? Because Atropus would have a large scaling chain in regards to soul damage.

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, undead in DnD don't have souls?

Souls in ISSTH just kinda go up in durability along with the character's regular power. A "mortal" soul would be pretty much nothing compared to a Nascent Divinity of a Second Severing Cultivator like Revelation.

For a scaling chain, I guess it'd go:

Second Severing >>>> First Severing >>>> Peak Nascent Soul >> Late Nascent Soul > Mid Nascent Soul > Early Nascent Soul > Peak Core Formation > Late Core Formation > Mid Core Formation > Early Core Formation > Peak Foundation Establishment > Late Foundation Establishment > Mid Foundation Establishment > Early Foundation Establishment > Qi Condensation >> Mortals.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not really, no, they have a sort of soul-replacement.

 

[Nepuko]

Basically, an X Tier cultivator would pretty much have an X tier Soul. In this case, a 5-C Lord Revelation, as 2nd Severing, have a "5-C" Soul. They can fight with it, Possess with it, affect real world, resist haxes with it (as long as it's not well over their tier obviously), etc etc.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Not really, no, they have a sort of soul-replacement.

Is it similar to a soul?

Because you mentioned before that Liches could revive as long as they had a soul.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Liches revive by side stepping death. They remove their soul and place it in a object. Then, even if their physical body is destroyed, they can just reform after 1 to 10 days since they're still technically alive from a cosmological standpoint. If you break the thing that holds the soul the Lich can no longer revive and is heavily weakened.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Voldemort, then. Hmm . . .

In Atropus' case, is that "soul replacement" some spiritual thing somewhat similar to a regular soul?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Voldemort is indeed based, at least in part, of the D&D version of a Lich.

For Atropus, presumably if it gets blown up it'll slowly remake itself by using Negative Energy to either pull itself back together or conjure more body parts. The issue present is how long it would take Atropus to do such a thing. Personally I don't see it reforming in 24 hours or less.

In Atropus' case, is that "soul replacement" some spiritual thing somewhat similar to a regular soul?

Cosmologically no. The energy that sustains undead is a void that calls on them to destroy life so try and fill it. But never can. Like being forever thirsty or something.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

24 hours or less is 100% reasonable when you have vampires potentially doing it in 6 hours.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But then you also have more powerful undead, like Liches, taking at least 24 hours to remake themselves. I agree that it's a possibility, just that in my personal view I don't see him coming back faster than a Lich would.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Even then, 24 hours would still make his stuff combat applicable.

And, again, this is all assuming he gets destroyed anyways, which I'm not convinced of since effectively a ghoul or something similar just needs to scrape LR once to paralyze him for long enough to immediately hax him into the dirt.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Well, rn I can't think of anything similar to that void in Rev's verse. Kinda sounds like discarnate/vengeful souls, but those are already souls in the first place, so it doesn't quite fit.

And, I mean, if it does take hours for him to regenerate, and he just slowly puts himself together, couldn't Rev just keep hitting him every once in a while to stop him from doing so? Maybe throw him inside the sun for good measure.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Slowly isn't how it works, no. It's more like a timeframe passes and he just pops back. Vampires turn to vapor and then take a few hours to regen, Liches just sort of reform themselves.

 

[InfiniteSped]

So, Rev has to just stand there for a few hours until the timeframe passes?

 

[Qawsedf234]

If Rev can nullify dimensional links or purify stuff there are ways to bypass the regen.

 

[InfiniteSped]

He can cause a spatial chaos that stops teleportation from working, I guess. Cultivators often use pocket dimensions to store their stuff, I think there are instances of people blocking those, although I'll have to go check.

Would throwing Atropus' body at the sun work?

 

[Qawsedf234]

That I don't know. If the neutral setting has D&D elemental portals then it's possible to win via BFR to the plane of radiance or something. But if it's just a star, then like Bambu suggested, Atropus may just poof itself back into existence in a safer location.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Well, if he can just teleport back to life at any place he wants, then I guess the star thing wouldn't work. Maybe a black hole . . .

Since there's no soul to affect, I guess Rev's best chance is to destroy the Aspect and let Atropus run away.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Qawsed By default it's in a neutral setting, though realistically dimensional travel could take them back to Faerun/Krynn/Greyhawk/what have you.

Even then, if Rev destroys the aspect, Rev still is trying to actively kill Atropus, and Atropus at Rev, which isn't the case in-game- Atropus is just generally murdering and will **** off if his aspect is dealt with. Meanwhile, Atropus is still spawning haxes all over the place that need to graze Rev exactly one time for it to snowball into a victory for Atropus.

With all of the above settled I do currently vote for Atropus.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Not too sure how accurate it is, but here it talks a bit about the aspect:

Destroying the Aspect dramatically weakens the planet itself and causes it such immense agony that it breaks its own orbit and flies backwards into space in its horrific death throes. Most importantly, destroying the Aspect strips Atropus of its Anathematic Secrecy and prevents it from using Divine Scourge, allowing the gods to finally step in and give their progenitor the merciful death it both longs for and fears

Is that true? If killing the Aspect hurts him that much, he should probably retreat in this situation as well. If Rev notices the massive amount of energy Atropus is feeding off, or if he kills him once and the dude comes back, he'll probably let the guy go, BFR counts as a victory too, and he isn't bloodlusted here or anything.

For the undead, I already showed this:

"Area," said Patriarch Huyan, his voice calm and his expression unchanging. He lifted his right hand and then gestured forward. Instantly, everything within three hundred meters turned into his own Area world! This divine ability was little different than natural law. It was a magical ability belonging to the Spirit Severing stage. The Area was not large, only three hundred meters. A three hundred meter Area which was a world only his own. Within that world, Patriarch Huyan had ultimate power. No divine abilities or magical techniques would be capable of breaking open the Area to harm him in any way. This is what sets Spirit Severing completely above Nascent Soul. In the Spirit Severing stage, divine abilities become natural laws! Nothing within the three hundred meter Area seemed unusual. However, in that instant, Meng Hao could sense that Patriarch Huyan had turned the space surrounding him into his own world.

Patriarch Huya, considerably weaker than Rev, shows off his Area, which can alter natural law and protect him from attacks. Anyone weaker than Rev would get crushed when entering it. I also showed the "snort" attack above, super casual stuff, makes weaker people explode, wrecks their minds with the sheer sound, stuff like that. Rev himself can supress anyone weaker than him with his voice alone:

"You get the hell out here!" "Get the hell out here!" "Get the hell out…" "Get the hell…" Innumerable echoes could be heard, swirling together to form a mighty sound of incomprehensible might. Meng Hao's body trembled as he looked out at the scene. In the place where the East Mountain had once stood, was a giant hole. Patriarch Reliance had been there just a few hours ago, but now he wasn't. "Where is he…" thought Meng Hao, his face growing pale. At the moment, he literally couldn't move. The power of Lord Revelation's voice suppressed everything. Anyone whose Cultivation base was lower than Lord Revelations could do nothing more that struggle to stand up against it. The power seemed to contain elements of the Heavens, as if Lord Revelation's will controlled everything. "This is not Nascent Soul stage, this is Spirit Severing stage!!"

And his main attack has some ridiculous AoE, that should hit all the summons at once as well:

Everything for tens of thousands of kilometers grew black. The hand covered everything. And then, it began to descend. The earth began to quake. Mountains buckled and collapsed. As the hand fell toward him, Meng Hao felt as if doomsday had arrived.

 

[Nepuko]

Also, to be able to harm Lord Rev one has to break his Area first :

"Battles of Spirit Severing were different from those of Nascent Soul Cultivators. All Spirit Severing Cultivators have Area worlds. Without breaking the Area world, the Spirit Severing Cultivator is incapable of being harmed."


Edit : got ninja'd by Snekky Sped.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The page you linked, while nice and is helpful with crunching down Atropus is not a correct or hard source. In the Elder Evils book itself nothing is mentioned of Atropus being defeated by the gods when the Aspect dies or losing its powers. This is the most that was said in the book

CONCLUSION

When the aspect of Atropus is defeated, read:

• The moonlet halts its progress, hanging motionless in the sky. Great tremors ripple across the surface, causing the ground to crack and buckle. A deep and mournful moan fills the air, issuing forth from the great Pit.

The moonlet's surface rumbles as if under the effect of an earthquake spell, requiring all characters to succeed on DC 15 Reflex saves or fall down. Fissures tear open, and all creatures on the ground have a 25% chance of falling into one (Reflex DC 20 to avoid). The tremors last for 1d6 rounds, at which point the whole moonlet seems to contract—killing anyone or anything still trapped in a fissure.

Then the moonlet rockets away from the world, moving at a speed of 40,000 feet. Characters still on the surface are carried with the moonlet. As it moves away from the world, Atropus's sign ends, and creatures animated by its effects collapse, lifeless.

So killing the aspect doesn't weaken Atropus. At least not as far as I know.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright, going again.

You're still misunderstanding. In the game, getting Atropus to go away is the only goal, as there is no way to kill it. Here, this is not the case, Lord Rev's goal is in fact to kill. So the Aspect thing means nothing as to furthering win conditions.

That's great, but I'd also point out a few other things- such as the incorporeal undead, the ones with any amount of range themselves, etc. Plus, even then, one single touch from certain types of Undead is all it takes. So yes, I agree he has a good counter, just not a perfect enough one.

The summons are literally just gonna keep spawning. If a single one hits with any hax, then Rev is effectively dead.

 

[InfiniteSped]

@Qwas: Well, it mention cracks on the surface and a "deep and mournful moan", so it does seem to cause Atropus some pain, and it still does make him run away.

@Bambu: If Atropus will run away after the Aspect is killed, that's self BFR, so he loses. Although it kinda depends if he can still regenerate normally if the Aspect is destroyed, since any attack that destroys the Aspect should destroy the planet body as well. Still, if he does go in regen mode, Revelation has time to gather info with his Divination abilities and know that he can't really kill the dude.

The Area blocks ranged attacks as well, and Revelation can harm incorporeal beings as well. He won't just let any of them touch him, since he does have a shield surrounding himself, 360 degree vision due to Divine Sense, and can always teleport away if he's getting swarmed.

Do they keep spawning if Atropus is regenerating?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Self BFR that Lord Rev can follow. So again, that isn't the point.

Also... it just occurred to me. Can Rev affect abstracts? Since atropals are abstracts and IIRC they aren't the only ones.

 

[InfiniteSped]

He can just not follow? His enemy is running away, he won. He could even sense all that negative energy and figure out it's an enemy he shouldn't keep trying to fight anyway, he also has Divination magic that can give him info on his opponents.

Abstracts in his verse are usually 1-A, but he can alter Natural Law with his Area and Domain, and use Daos (concepts) to an extent. Anyway, are they just immune to all damage otherwise?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He could but his ultimate goal is in fact to kill. So again, that isn't likely.

So the answer is no. And no, they aren't immune to damage in verse in the same way that ghosts aren't, but other verses still need that brand of NPI to affect them.

So he can't hurt the Atropal and gets haxed, cool.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Outsiders in D&D are concepts given flesh and exist on multiple different layers of reality. Now in-universe this doesn't mean a whole lot since magic weapons can overcome this, magic itself effects them no matter how many layers they exist on, and some of them have exploitable weaknesses. But in this circumstance it could render Atropus immune to certain abilities of his enemy if he doesn't have the ability to effect abstract things.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, it just occurred to me that Atropus himself should have it (Abstract Existence) and I don't know why it isn't there. I'll talk to Qawsed about it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For battle reference, I should mention that Rev's AP is 16x times higher than Atropus' durability and a massive 11,104x times higher than the Aspect's AP. Like to say he can one shot either if he's capable of landing a blow is a massive understatement. Atropus's KE is higher, but Rev is also going to be exposed to a fraction of a fraction of that toal energy due to the size difference and lack of focused AP abilities by Atropus.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Of course, I'm aware. The main issue is actually affecting all summons at once and, with the recent observations, if he can even touch Atropus/Atropal.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wait.

You mean real and actual Atropus lol?

Atropus' stuff is 1.733e30 Joules.

Lord Rev is almost exactly 1e30 Joules.

Atropus is physically stronger than Rev.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah Atropus' KE is higher. But his durability is (currently at least) based on the planet's GBE. Which is High 6-A and what I used to get the 16x figure.

 

[InfiniteSped]

He could but his ultimate goal is in fact to kill. So again, that isn't likely.
So the answer is no. And no, they aren't immune to damage in verse in the same way that ghosts aren't, but other verses still need that brand of NPI to affect them.

So he can't hurt the Atropal and gets haxed, cool.

The goal is just to win, no? That's generally by killing, but if it's not necessary, there's no reason for him to give chase. There's no personal grudge between them or anything, and like I said, he can probably sense that Atropus has more to him than it looks.

So, everyone in DnD has abstract attacks? Regardless, he does have some conceptual/Dao stuff that could maybe work. Spirit Severing Cultivators can control Heaven and Earth, and even become one with it. For example, this is how Devas (basically the same as SS) are described:

So, this is what it's like to be a deva.... One with everything...." Right now, he felt like the wave of his hand could draw upon all the power of heaven and earth to crush anything in his path. It was almost as if heaven and earth were an empty body, and a deva could become the will of that body, controlling it in every aspect. Of course, there was more than just a single will within that heaven and earth, controlling it. There were other devas who also vied for control. In fact, Bai Xiaochun could sense another such will right there in front of him, drawing upon the incredible energy of heaven and earth to attack him. Bai Xiaochun's eyes snapped open, and when he did, his entire person thrummed with power!

Spirit Severing is all about controlling Natural Law and understanding Daos (concepts):

The mysteries of Spirit Severing had nothing to do with variations in divine abilities, but rather the manifestation of the Domain. Each of the three Severings were an instance of the use of the Domain. Only within the Spirit Severing stage was it possible to have the qualification to call one's cultivation… a Dao! In the cultivation of the Spirit Severing stage, medicinal pills were secondary. The most important thing was… enlightenment regarding the Domain. Every Spirit Severing Patriarch had a different Domain. Based on their different experiences in life, the Dao of the Domain chosen by the Cultivator transformed into a blade of Severing. The first Severing was the early stage, the second Severing was the mid, the third Severing was the late! Each of these Severings would cause the Cultivation base to rise to a new realm. When all three Severings were completed, the great circle of Spirit Severing was complete. After that, there was only one path to follow… and that was Dao Seeking. The reason why it was called Dao Seeking was that the body of the Cultivator contained a Dao. Within the three Severings of the Spirit Severing stage, one's Dao was discovered, then questions arose…. Once the Dao was solidified, then one was qualified for Immortal Ascension.

A single finger can alter reality:

This was not a divine ability or a magical technique, but merely the pointing of single finger. Everything seemed calm, but incredible changes were occurring, changes that influenced the laws of reality. Meng Hao felt as if he were bound up, incapable of resisting. It was as if his Cultivation base existed in name only, and was incapable whatsoever of resisting this surprise onslaught from the Domain.

They can make it so that the entire world wishes to banish the enemy:

Patriarch Huyan's Nascent Divinity Spirit Immortal began to perform an incantation gesture, touching its left thumb with its right forefinger, and vice versa. This formed a rectangle which it used to surround Meng Hao's image. "Spirit Severing Banishment!" it shouted. As the words left its mouth, rumbling filled Heaven and Earth, and the sky dimmed. Giant-form Meng Hao began to shake, as if explosive power from Heaven and Earth were forming to expel him. Such an expulsion made it seem as if the entire world, as if all the lands of South Heaven, viewed Meng Hao as an enemy. It was as if in this moment, all living things, even the plants and animals, all existence, were filled with an intense desire to expel Meng Hao. All of a sudden, a sound like countless murmuring voices suddenly joined together to form an echoing shout. "Begone!" The sound was such that it seemed as if the will of the entire world was focused on expelling and banishing Meng Hao! Meng Hao's giant-form exploded into countless pieces, as did the other remaining giants in the area. The mastiff whined as roaring also filled its body and its life force rapidly began to drain away. It, however, did not explode. After all… it was of the Spirit Severing stage! Such a banishment could only be resisted by the Spirit Severing stage! Anything beneath Spirit Severing would be killed by this banishment. That was the power of a Nascent Divinity Spirit Immortal. The Blood Clone also exploded, although it quickly reformed, only to explode once more. The Violet Sea churned. Deep beneath the surface, blood sprayed from Meng Hao's mouth. Roaring filled his mind as he heard all living things roaring. "BEGONE!!" More blood exploded from his mouth. Popping sounds rang out from his body as he shot up from within the waters. The voices continued to echo in his ears. "BEEGOOONNEEE!! "Begone from this place! Begone from these lands! Begone from South Heaven…!" An indescribable power of expulsion caused Meng Hao to retreat at full speed. He coughed up blood continuously. The magic of this divine ability was incredibly powerful, far beyond anything Meng Hao could have imagined. The power of expulsion continued to grow more intense, causing an enormous vortex to appear in midair. The gravitation force of the vortex latched onto Meng Hao, as if it intended to completely banish him from the lands of South Heaven.

So, he can become one with the world to an extent, control reality, can understand Daos (concepts) and affect the world with them through Natural Laws/Domains, and even make it so that the whole world wants to kick you out. Should be enough to affect them, if they're "magical expressions" of concepts.