Lord of the Rings tiering revision

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So this is just something I noticed while looking through the LotR profiles.

I realized we have a profile for Ossë, who is rated as 6-B for using his power to raise a country-sized island from the bottom of the sea, as well as drag islands around the ocean and change their position. Osse is a Maia, which is the same thing Gandalf and Sauro are (or in Sauron's case, was). Now Osse is a relatively powerful Maia, but so is Gandalf, and Sauron is repeatedly stated to be one of the most powerful among the Maiar before his corruption, and he became far stronger after joining up with Morgoth.

Is there any reason Sauron and anyone remotely of his level are not being scaled to Osse? Because the books imply this should be the case.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems reasonable. However, you would have to try to work out which characters that should be scaled from him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Everyone relatively comparable to Sauron. Lemme check, real quick.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Okay, just checked. It scales to Sauron, Gandalf (the White, true Maia Gandalf, and possibly the Grey in his fight against Durin's Bane), weakened Morgoth (still dwarfs Sauron at his weakest), Balrogs (fallen Maiar, the strongest of whom are on par with Sauron), Ancalagon, starving Ungoliant, Fingolfin (fought weakened Morgoth and wounded him), Feanor (fought Gothmog, the strongest of all Balrogs), Gothmog (stated to be Sauron's equal), Saruman (stronger than Gandalf the Grey, who killed Durin's Bane), the Witch King (at least somewhat comparable to Gandalf the White when at full power), and POSSIBLY Galadriel (overpowered a heavily weakened Sauron).

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Didn't Galadriel only overpower a weakened Sauron in the Hobbit movies?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm. Didn't Galadriel only overpower a weakened Sauron in the Hobbit movies?

Been too long. I would have to check.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we cannot scale from the movies, only from the original books.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm not sure about Galadriel anyway, since like I said, Sauron was a shadow of his former self, but yeah. Everyone else I mentioned scales.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Was the Witch King ever compared to Gandalf in the books?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Okay. Was the Witch King ever compared to Gandalf in the books?

Yes, but in a much different way than in the movies. In the movies, the Witch King breaks Gandalf's staff when he confronts him at Minas Tirith. In the books, Gandalf is the only person who can stand up to the Witch King, and is prepared to fight. While it's implied Gandalf would likely win the fight due to being a Maia as opposed to a sorcerer empowered by (an albeit stronger) one, it would still be an actual fight, and Gandalf couldn't just one-shot him, since the Witch King's power grew with Sauron's.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just rechecked the book to be safe. Gandalf the White also states he has "not been measured" against the Witch King and is uncertain is he could 100% take him down, but is fully willing to fight. This is the same Gandalf who defeated a Balrog in a much weaker state, so I think it's safe to say the Witch King scales, or at the very least gets a "Likely" before his ranking.

 

[Antvasima]

Your suggested changes seem reasonable then, with the exception of Galadriel.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. Should I wait for a bit more staff input?

 

[Antvasima]

If you wish, sure,

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. I would like a few more opinions before changing anything, just to be safe.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Is there any confirmation that the other Maia are as strong as him?

I mean, peak Melkor was on par with all the other Valar combined, so it's not like being in the same "rank" of Aunir makes you as powerful as other being in the same rank.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Is there any confirmation that the other Maia are as strong as him?
I mean, peak Melkor was on par with all the other Valar combined, so it's not like being in the same "rank" of Aunir makes you as powerful as other being in the same rank.

It's not as much about the others getting confirmation. Just about Sauron getting that confirmation (or I guess in this case, Mairon). Because if Sauron gets that confirmation, it scales to Gothmog, who scales to Feanor, who scales to several regular Balrogs, etc.

Most Maiar seem to be in the same ballpark of power (including Balrogs for obvious reasons). For instance, Gothmog is much stronger than your average Balrog, but the difference isn't completely astronomical.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Where is it said that Gothmog is on par wiht Sauron? Legit question.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's something about Gothmog being Sauron's "only equal" or something of that nature. Let me find it.

Edit: Apparently it's related to the fact that Morgoth awarded both Gothmog and Sauron the same rank, and they were the only two who ever held that rank in his armies. He also chose Gothmog to be the more front-line fighter of the two due to his power, while Sauron's assigned roles were more "domestic".

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Interesting, so Sauron, Gandalf etc were be going from 7-A to 6-B? I've only seen the movies however, but I just bought the Silmarillion, I'll start reading it soon though, I can understand Morgoth, Ungoliant Eru etc being REALLY powerful, its interesting to see Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Ancalagon, Gothmog etc possibly getting Country level AP

 

[Jucaslucas]

It's something about Gothmog being Sauron's "only equal" or something of that nature. Let me find it.
Edit: Apparently it's related to the fact that Morgoth awarded both Gothmog and Sauron the same rank, and they were the only two who ever held that rank in his armies. He also chose Gothmog to be the more front-line fighter of the two due to his power, while Sauron's assigned roles were more "domestic".

Well, having the same military rank doesn't necessarily mean they have the same power level. Sauron was a great sorcerer and schemer, so it makes sense for him to stay away from the frontlines, especially since there were beings strong enough to beat Maiar like Glorfindel, L├║thien, Huan, Echtelion and such.

Gothmog could be better at comanding armies and physical fighting against his enemies, but not necessarily have greater power.

Do you have the exact quote?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Yes, but this is a military rank granted by Melkor for specific purposes. Both Gothmog and Sauron were his lieutenants, but only Gothmog was sent head on into battle, which would suggest that even if he was not as strong, he was at least comparable, and likely surpassed Sauron in skill as a warrior. Gothmog was only killed by a cheap shot and falling into what was essentially a hole filled with his weakness. Sauron was an excellent tactician and manipulator, but was repeatedly bested when it came to enemies of his own level. Gothmog was bested once.

I would imagine they would at least be comparable.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Well, Osse's feat is of pure power and magic to control the enviroment. Sauron was better at that than figthing.

Gothmog's only notable fight that I remember was against Echtelion, in which he died, but killed the Elf in the process.

Sauron fought Finrod, and won. Lost to Luthien and Huan, the former being op af and the latter being protected by the plot device prophecy. And died to Erondil and Gil Galad, killing them in the process.

I don't think being bested only once matters, since he died in that occasion.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Gothmog mortally wounded Fëanor, killed Fingon, and captured Húrin Thalion, iirc. Being responsible for the deaths of two of the Kings of Noldor as well as capturing the greatest warrior of Men are pretty impressive feats.

When Ecthelion defeated him, it was not because he was stronger or a better fighter than Gothmog. It was because Gothmog let his guard down in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Most of Sauron's losses were due to simply being outclassed in one way or another. Again, I'm not saying Gothmog is stronger, but that he should be comparable, while also having an edge in combat skill. Sauron should still be greatly superior on the magic front.

 

[Jucaslucas]

He killed Feanor with the help of a bajillion other Balrogs.

Fingon was fighting an Balrog, and another one attacked him while he was not looking. He got cheap shotted.

The orcs had already overwhelmed and grabbed H├║rin. Gothmog just tied him up.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The other Balrogs mainly fought off the few elves he had with him and tired him out. Gothmog is still described as the one who struck him down, and the one who would have personally killed him, had he and the other Balrogs not retreated to Angband.

Gothmog and Fingon were fighting on equal footing until the nameless Balrog snuck up on the elven king from behind. It's not like he was overwhelming Gothmog or winning the fight. The two were pretty evenly matched, but Gothmog, being a servant of Morgoth, didn't exactly mind the spur of the moment cheap help in killing Fingon.

H├║rin was captured by orders of Morgoth, as Gothmog was explicitly not supposed to kill him, which is very telling because Gothmog probably would have killed him, himself.

I don't think Gothmog, or the other Balrogs for that matter, would be considered such a major part of Morgoth's forces if they weren't remotely similar to Sauron. If Gothmog was that much weaker, Fingon probably would have just one-shot him.

Also, lets not forget that several generic Balrogs drove off a starving Ungoliant, who was a threat to weakened Morgoth, who even at his absolute worst was above Sauron, so they're likely quite comparable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bump.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

So, this possible 6-B upgrade for Gandalf and the others, would Gandalf be Country level in his Mortal form? Or just in his istari form?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, this possible 6-B upgrade for Gandalf and the others, would Gandalf be Country level in his Mortal form? Or just in his istari form?

His mortal "the Grey" form would probably have a "probably/possibly 6-B" for beating Durin's Bane. "The White" would probably just be straight 6-B.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

His mortal "the Grey" form would probably have a "probably/possibly 6-B" for beating Durin's Bane. "The White" would probably just be straight 6-B.

I see, thanks, I always liked Gandalf, would be pretty cool having him at Country level

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Gandalf being Country level tho. The man with the meme gets that boast~ Wooo~ :O

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bumping this again so it's not forgotten about. If there are not serious qualms, I can update the profiles.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Seems alright to me.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Going by the ones you think should logically scale to this, Azathoth, it looks alright to me.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. I will start the changes, soon.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Sweet, Country level Gandalf, Sarumon, Sauron, Balrogs etc

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Heck yeah.

Honestly surprised I didn't notice it before, since EM made a comment on the Country level calc itself that was something along the lines of that being the power of the top tier Maiar, so obviously guys like Sauron, Gandalf, and Balrogs would get that scaling.