Living Tribunal, Molecule Man, and Pre-Retcon Beyonder

[Alonis3612]

I don't understand.. Living Tribunal is supposed to be second only to TOAA, yet he was considered far less powerful than either MM or Beyonder back during Secret Wars... I want to think there was a retcon which made LT more powerful yet I can't find a definite rason for that.. Anyone can help and/or explain?

 

[Antvasima]

He was not as powerful in 1985 as he was during the 1990s. Marvel is extremely inconsistent from time period to time period.

 

[Alonis3612]

What proves he was not as powerful back then? I don't think it's actually enough to call it straight up retcon. Unless there are direct words from a writer..

 

[Antvasima]

He was not yet stated to be the embodiment of all the abstract entities, embodiment of the multiverse, present in every higher dimension, working directly for the OAA, etcetera.

We cannot state that a character is of a certain power level until some writer decides that it is and an editor approves it.

 

[Alonis3612]

Living Tribunal was described as something which bonds all abstracts together. If we consider that he was the sum of abstracts entities in later appearences, this might well be a reference to it. Anyway I got proof from official source that Living Tribunal even in 60's and 70's was operating on omniversal scale (not an exaggeration, it directly stated about all fiction).

 

[Antvasima]

Any mention of omniversal scale is Suggsverse-style hyperbole per definition. He can only have authority over Marvel alone.

 

[Alonis3612]

Yet he made the Brothers who became embodiments of Marvel and DC...

 

[Antvasima]

They were retconned into not being the embodiments of either the entirety of Marvel or DC. Their full powers unleashed against each other were stated to be capable of vaporising galaxies. That is not very impressive for cosmic entities.

 

[Alonis3612]

That was before they became the embodiments of Marvel and DC. They became the embodiments of new realities when old multiverse was destroyed.

 

[Antvasima]

No, you are mixing things up. They were briefly the embodiments of Marvel and DC during a crossover. Here they vastly transcended the Tribunal, who was presented as a gnat beside them. Then Marvel retconned them into being powerful enough to vaporise galaxies, and that's it.

I think that we have a discussion rule against bringing up this topic, as it is so tiresome to repeatedly deal with.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. It seems like our policies regarding them are slightly different than I remembered:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Brothers_Yin_and_Yang

 

[Alonis3612]

I am not fixing things up. They became the embodiments of megaverses like that:

Handbook clearly confirmed that it was LT who made Brothers and they became embodiments of megaverses.

Living Tribunal in that crossover had likely a much weaker M-Body.

 

[Antvasima]

Within the X-Men Adventures story itself it was only stated that their conflict could vaporise galaxies. We do not consider throwaway lines in handbooks written by Marvel interns as reliable for massive upgrades, especially if they completely contradict the source material.

This is far from the first time that I have had to deal with this issue over the years, and I am extremely tired of it at this point.

As such, I will close this thread, and would appreciate if you permanently and immediately drop the issue, and never ever bring it up again.